The Firmament Above The Earth Is Solid?

[Edward]

Geness 1:6
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.../

The firmament is the sky, right? The heavens above us.

The Blue Letter Bible says this about Firmament

רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ, raw-kee'-ah; from H7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.../

and,
extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament

1. expanse (flat as base, support)
2. firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above)
   1. considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting 'waters' above../(BLB)

It says it is solid. It supports water above it also. Water above the firmament is referred to in the account of Noahs Flood. It says the flodd gates of heaven were opened...and it dropped water contributing to the flood.

Learn something new every day. It is a solid firmament.

 

[tdidymas]

Geness 1:6
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.../

The firmament is the sky, right? The heavens above us.

The Blue Letter Bible says this about Firmament

רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ, raw-kee'-ah; from H7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.../

and,
extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament

1. expanse (flat as base, support)
2. firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above)
   1. considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting 'waters' above../(BLB)

It says it is solid. It supports water above it also. Water above the firmament is referred to in the account of Noahs Flood. It says the flodd gates of heaven were opened...and it dropped water contributing to the flood.

Learn something new every day. It is a solid firmament.

"Floodgates of heaven" (or windows) is a figure of speech. In Genesis it is used to mean raining extremely hard, like "cats and dogs." In Malachi (3:10) it is used to mean delivery of prosperity.

The water supported above the atmosphere ("firmament") are clouds. Some thunderstorm clouds can hold over a billion tons of water. That's about .25 Trillion gallons (with a "big T").

To say that the "firmament" was solid is problematic. It reeks of ancient cosmology where they believed the sky was a solid dome that held the sun, moon, and stars. There is nothing in the Genesis account that indicates this. It takes reading into the text an idea that doesn't belong there.
TD

 

[Razeontherock]

The closest there is to anything solid in the firmament is ice crystals in clouds. While there's lots of that it doesn't align with the meaning of the text, which is described well in the above post. Hebrew is figurative and symbolic by nature.

 

[Edward]

"Floodgates of heaven" (or windows) is a figure of speech. In Genesis it is used to mean raining extremely hard, like "cats and dogs." In Malachi (3:10) it is used to mean delivery of prosperity.

The water supported above the atmosphere ("firmament") are clouds. Some thunderstorm clouds can hold over a billion tons of water. That's about .25 Trillion gallons (with a "big T").

To say that the "firmament" was solid is problematic. It reeks of ancient cosmology where they believed the sky was a solid dome that held the sun, moon, and stars. There is nothing in the Genesis account that indicates this. It takes reading into the text an idea that doesn't belong there.
TD

I do not think that clouds are the firmament. Scripture speaks of clouds, and scripture speaks of firmament. It's not the same word(s). In all fairness, I do kind of want to toss this around a little, but...can you give me anything else to support your notions? Scriptures?

I don't see the Genesis scriptures indicating that it is dome shaped or that it holds the sun moon and stars. Where did you come up with that.

Reading what I posted, it does say pretty plainly, the firmament separates the waters above from the waters below. So the the firmament reads as being more than mere clouds. If clouds were the firmament then where is the water above?

I suspect that we have been taught traditional thinking which is wrought with speculation, lies and misinformation. We don't really know, do we? I don't. I have not been up in space looking down at the earth. So all I know is, what man teaches, and what scripture teaches. So isn't your view one which would seem to indicate that, the scriptures are unreliable? With all due respect, I have a slight problem with that. (unless you have more scriptures?)

 

[Edward]

The closest there is to anything solid in the firmament is ice crystals in clouds. While there's lots of that it doesn't align with the meaning of the text, which is described well in the above post. Hebrew is figurative and symbolic by nature.

Oh come on now Brother! Do you really know that, or is that traditional thinking speaking?

...doesn't align with the meaning of the text...?? Wait a minute, then it would be confusing, right? And God is not the author of confusion...right? Maybe it does align with the meaning of the text, but our logical carnal minds have been taught to think differently? Can we trust the text or not? Eh?

 

[Razeontherock]

We can trust the text in terms of what it intended to convey, to the original audience.

There is indeed water above the firmament, as Scripture states; clouds. Before the flood Scripture states the nature of clouds was different than we have now. And compared to this water vapor, the firmament IS solid. But again, this goes beyond what Scripture was trying to convey.

 

[tdidymas]

You didn't read what I wrote carefully enough. I'll explain further:

I do not think that clouds are the firmament. Scripture speaks of clouds, and scripture speaks of firmament. It's not the same word(s). In all fairness, I do kind of want to toss this around a little, but...can you give me anything else to support your notions? Scriptures?

I said the breathing atmosphere is the "firmament". The clouds are the waters "above the firmament." "Firmament" doesn't mean "solid." Genesis is not a science manual. It is written for street people and country folk. That means that what the context states is what we see in nature. Waters above the "firmament" are the clouds, and the waters below is the sea and lakes. That makes the firmament = air we breathe.

I don't see the Genesis scriptures indicating that it is dome shaped or that it holds the sun moon and stars. Where did you come up with that.

I said that a solid dome sky was ancient cosmology. I didn't say that Genesis says that. Some people try to take the ancient cosmology idea and cram it into Genesis. My point is that if you think "firmament" is a solid dome over the sky, then you are the one cramming the idea into Genesis.

Reading what I posted, it does say pretty plainly, the firmament separates the waters above from the waters below. So the the firmament reads as being more than mere clouds. If clouds were the firmament then where is the water above?

Waters above = clouds
Air we breathe = firmament
Waters below = seas and lakes

I suspect that we have been taught traditional thinking which is wrought with speculation, lies and misinformation. We don't really know, do we? I don't. I have not been up in space looking down at the earth. So all I know is, what man teaches, and what scripture teaches. So isn't your view one which would seem to indicate that, the scriptures are unreliable? With all due respect, I have a slight problem with that. (unless you have more scriptures?)

I am the one trying to rely on the scripture, since I object to funny ideas that are being crammed into it. I take the scripture as it states, without having to jump through interpretive hoops to meet a theoretical agenda.
TD

 

[KevinK]

This is an interesting thread. One question:

Air we breathe = firmament

Scripture says the firmament is Heaven. So Heaven is the atmosphere?

 

[Edward]

We can trust the text in terms of what it intended to convey, to the original audience.

There is indeed water above the firmament, as Scripture states; clouds. Before the flood Scripture states the nature of clouds was different than we have now. And compared to this water vapor, the firmament IS solid. But again, this goes beyond what Scripture was trying to convey.

So you're saying that the atmosphere between ground level and the clouds are the firmament?

Brother, on what do you substantiate that somehow? It sure don't read like that to me.

 

[tdidymas]

This is an interesting thread. One question:



Scripture says the firmament is Heaven. So Heaven is the atmosphere?

It's the first heaven. The second heaven is called "heavens" by Moses in which he points to the stars. The third heaven is where God dwells (the spirit dimension) where Paul visited once; he called it that. The third heaven is where God invited John when He said "come up here." It's also where Jesus ascended to.
TD

 

[Edward]

You didn't read what I wrote carefully enough. I'll explain further:

I said the breathing atmosphere is the "firmament". The clouds are the waters "above the firmament." "Firmament" doesn't mean "solid." Genesis is not a science manual. It is written for street people and country folk. That means that what the context states is what we see in nature. Waters above the "firmament" are the clouds, and the waters below is the sea and lakes. That makes the firmament = air we breathe.


I said that a solid dome sky was ancient cosmology. I didn't say that Genesis says that. Some people try to take the ancient cosmology idea and cram it into Genesis. My point is that if you think "firmament" is a solid dome over the sky, then you are the one cramming the idea into Genesis.


Waters above = clouds
Air we breathe = firmament
Waters below = seas and lakes


I am the one trying to rely on the scripture, since I object to funny ideas that are being crammed into it. I take the scripture as it states, without having to jump through interpretive hoops to meet a theoretical agenda.
TD

I have no agenda. Just trying to understand it. So went to the concordance (blb) and it was surprising to me that it said it is solid.

That's what we're supposed to do, right? Go back into the original language of the text to gain insight. And, yes, I agree, let's stick to the text of the scriptures.

So where is it saying that the waters above are clouds?
And why wouldn't it be solid as stated in the text?

 

[KevinK]

It's the first heaven. The second heaven is called "heavens" by Moses in which he points to the stars. The third heaven is where God dwells (the spirit dimension) where Paul visited once; he called it that. The third heaven is where God invited John when He said "come up here." It's also where Jesus ascended to.
TD

How many heavens are there? I heard seven.

 

[tdidymas]

I have no agenda. Just trying to understand it. So went to the concordance (blb) and it was surprising to me that it said it is solid.

That's what we're supposed to do, right? Go back into the original language of the text to gain insight. And, yes, I agree, let's stick to the text of the scriptures.

So where is it saying that the waters above are clouds?
And why wouldn't it be solid as stated in the text?

The text doesn't say it is solid. You're reading that into the text. The Strong's definition is "רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ, raw-kee'-ah; from H7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament."

The meaning of this has been debated throughout the centuries. It's not going to get resolved here.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

How many heavens are there? I heard seven.

You must've heard that from the Mormons or TV. There's only 3 in scripture.
TD

 

[Michael74]

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. Genesis 1:20 KJV

Birds were flying in the open firmament of heaven.

 

[Edward]

The text doesn't say it is solid. You're reading that into the text. The Strong's definition is "רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ, raw-kee'-ah; from H7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament."

The meaning of this has been debated throughout the centuries. It's not going to get resolved here.
TD

It does say that. I take that part as simply describing the shape of it. It goes on to say that it is solid.

and,
extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament

1. expanse (flat as base, support)
2. firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above)
   1. considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting 'waters' above../(BLB)

The rest of it that you do not address explains that it is solid. Do we just throw that part out? If the expanse is flat and used as a support...that suggests that it is solid.

Now I'm not arguing, Brother. I'm just going by the text of the scripture, and its definition and usage in the original language. To me, it agrees with the scripture and the description of what it is, the firmament. You haven't really posted any scriptures which support your viewpoint, sorry. So your postings seem to be largely opinion.

It sounds like we were taught the same things. But with the amount of deception in this world..and misinformation/indoctrination...the carnal mind immediately rejects such (speculations?). The more that I learn about the Lord, the less I feel I know, so, I do quite a bit of wild 'what if's' just because of the deception. The real truth is very likely to be 180° off from what we are told and taught.

Ok so the Hebrews considered the firmament to be solid...it has been put forth that Hebrew is figurative and symbolic by nature. That sounds like an easy way to dismiss the notion of the text. In my experience, scripture can be figurative and symbolic, and literal at the same time. Such is the Greatness of the author (God). Most the time when scripture is figurative, iy jumps out at you as figurative. As in, the kingdom of heaven is like...this passage that we discuss doesnt do that. It's more descriptive and plain.

I guess in the long run it doesn't really matter because the issue is not salvific. I'm not trying to convince anyone of what I think, but I wanted to mention it because it was very interesting to me. I may not be right about it, however, no one has convinced me that I am definitely wrong about it either. Have a blessed day, Brothers and Sisters.

 

[tdidymas]

It does say that. I take that part as simply describing the shape of it. It goes on to say that it is solid.



The rest of it that you do not address explains that it is solid. Do we just throw that part out? If the expanse is flat and used as a support...that suggests that it is solid.

Now I'm not arguing, Brother. I'm just going by the text of the scripture, and its definition and usage in the original language. To me, it agrees with the scripture and the description of what it is, the firmament. You haven't really posted any scriptures which support your viewpoint, sorry. So your postings seem to be largely opinion.

It sounds like we were taught the same things. But with the amount of deception in this world..and misinformation/indoctrination...the carnal mind immediately rejects such (speculations?). The more that I learn about the Lord, the less I feel I know, so, I do quite a bit of wild 'what if's' just because of the deception. The real truth is very likely to be 180° off from what we are told and taught.

Ok so the Hebrews considered the firmament to be solid...it has been put forth that Hebrew is figurative and symbolic by nature. That sounds like an easy way to dismiss the notion of the text. In my experience, scripture can be figurative and symbolic, and literal at the same time. Such is the Greatness of the author (God). Most the time when scripture is figurative, iy jumps out at you as figurative. As in, the kingdom of heaven is like...this passage that we discuss doesnt do that. It's more descriptive and plain.

I guess in the long run it doesn't really matter because the issue is not salvific. I'm not trying to convince anyone of what I think, but I wanted to mention it because it was very interesting to me. I may not be right about it, however, no one has convinced me that I am definitely wrong about it either. Have a blessed day, Brothers and Sisters.

And thank God it is not salvific, just like "Nephilim", "rapture", and other controversial mysteries.

I'll take Michael's cue above:
Gen. 1:20: "And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."

So according to your theory, the birds fly in a solid.
TD

 

[stovebolts]

Geness 1:6
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.../

The firmament is the sky, right? The heavens above us.

The Blue Letter Bible says this about Firmament

רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ, raw-kee'-ah; from H7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.../

and,
extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament

1. expanse (flat as base, support)
2. firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above)
   1. considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting 'waters' above../(BLB)

It says it is solid. It supports water above it also. Water above the firmament is referred to in the account of Noahs Flood. It says the flodd gates of heaven were opened...and it dropped water contributing to the flood.

Learn something new every day. It is a solid firmament.

Hebrews see things vastly different than gentiles, and keep in mind we were grafted in.
One major difference in our thinking which is reflected in our language is this. Hebrews think in terms of function and verb. We think in terms of nouns.

Keeping this in mind, they are not going to look at the idea of solid which is used to describe a verb the way we might because we use adjectives to describe nouns, not verbs.. Let me give you an example that was taught to me years ago.

We look and we see a solid door. Solid describes the door. They see a swinger, because its function is to swing open or closed. Where we focus on the noun, they focus on the verb. So where do the adjectives come in, after all, it is a solid door that swings. Or in their mind, a solid swinger.

Jews seek signs and gentiles seek knowledge. It's amazing how we can look at the same thing yet understand it in vastly different ways.

Take a look at this commentary and tell me what you see in terms of "solid" for the verses you've quoted. If not anything else, you should see a completely different discussion going on.

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8165#showrashi=true

 

[for_his_glory]

There are three heavens:

First heaven - The firmament, Earths Atmosphere which is the immediate sky, where the “fowls of the heaven” (Genesis 2:19; 7:3,23; Psalms 8:8, etc.), “the eagles of heaven” (Lamentations 4:19), it is our atmosphere that surrounds the earth.

Second Heaven - Outer Space, the starry heavens (Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29).
The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit.

Third Heaven - This is where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell plus the very breath of just men dwell as when we die it is that breath that returns back to God. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4). (1Kings 8:27) - “The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. The third heaven is beyond the space and stars. Where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God (John 3:13).

 

[for_his_glory]

Here is one definition of clouds I googled. Hope this helps.

Clouds form when invisible water vapor in the air condenses into visible water droplets or ice crystals. There is water around us all the time in form of tiny gas particles also known as water vapor. There are also tiny particles floating around in the air such as salt and dust. These are called aerosols.