The first tenth ?

[Henry]

Funny that the NT says NOTHING at all about the tithe and here we are told in churches that we have to pay the tithe or God is going to curse us. This I am afraid is big lie.

The tithe was part of the law of the isrealites and not part of the new covenant, the NT church gave from a willing heart what ever they wanted and it was never a rule to pay a tithe.

Actually it was not a rule untill around 1500

So, when you are in church and the "pastor" (another unbiblical thing) says you must pay a tithe or you are robbing God, well put your money away he is misinforming you.

On the other hand if someone is hungry, give him some food or some money to buy food with. That is the real rule.

So, can anyone show me biblicall how the tithe was carried over the to NT?

 

[Collier]

No, we are not bound by the tithe. In the N.T. we are commanded to give as we have been prospered ( 1 Corinthians 16:2 ) and cheerfully ( 2 Corinthians 9:7 ).If one tithed, then they are giving of necessity and not according to prosperity.One more thing Henry, pastor is biblical. Just not the way it is used by most today.

 

[Aslan]

The NT reference is:

1 Corinthians 9:7-14 (NIV): 7Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk? 8Do I say this merely from a human point of view? Doesn't the Law say the same thing? 9For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12If others have this right of support from you, shouldn't we have it all the more?
But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

This says that those who preach the gospel should make a living from the gospel "in the same way" as the temple priests. The priests of the old testament lived from the tithe.

Numbers 18:21(NIV) I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting.

I consider the tithe to be the minimum to support those who teach and spread the gospel. The offering is really anything god puts on your heart above the tithe.

Everything Jesus did and said took the law to a higher standard. For example, the ten commandments say we should not commit adultry, Jesus said if we lust in our hearts we have already commited adultry. Why then would he not expect us to at least do the minimum of what the standard in the OT was for tithing?

 

[Henry]

Aslan

Nothing wrong with good will giving, the NT is not saying that we should not give to those who are doing the work of the church and to help the poor. As a matter of fact we should be doing that.

The problem is that calling it a tithe and then making a rule is not there.

Basically when preacher stands at the pulpit and teaches that not paying God tenth to the "Church" is robbing God he is wrong.

First of all the tithe was to take care of the poor and the temple workers, the temple is no longer needed and we are all priest, so if we are to still pay a tithe then we sould all pay one to each other, which by the way was MORE then 10%.

Hey, want to give that is great !!! No problem with that, but give from your heart not because you think it is the rule and you have to. And give to the work of the church, which is NOT the rent and power bill of the building.

As for suporting workers, that is fine too. But the problem is that now pastors have taken a salary and that is not a NT teaching, not the pastors office nor the pay check.

So by all means give, but be sure that you are giving to the real work of God.

The tithe was a law for the isealite only and to support a temple that is no longer needed.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Funny that the NT says NOTHING at all about the tithe and here we are told in churches that we have to pay the tithe or God is going to curse us. This I am afraid is big lie.

Hi Henry

You know what I find most interesting about this issue? They throw out all the OT law EXCEPT the one that, if carried over, would serve to insure a greater income for them. Some coincidence, huh? :roll:

They tell the people in the pews to "have faith" that God will provide for their needs even when it seems they can't afford to give that 10%, but the leadership shows no faith in God themselves because they feel they have to TELL the people to give a certain amount, rather than just shutting up and trusting that God will urge hearts to give what is needed to run the church. This is not exactly setting an example.

"Ministers say they teach charity. This is natural. They live on alms. All BEGGARS teach that OTHERS should give" (R.G.Ingersoll)

 

[Henry]

BradtheImpaler

Thank you I am not sure what your faith is, but you see the problem here to be sure. If you are not a Christian, then when you are you are a natural for house church.

 

[Rick W]

Tithing isn't a rule.

2Co 9:5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.
2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
2Co 9:9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth forever.
2Co 9:10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)
2Co 9:11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
2Co 9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
2Co 9:13 While by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;
2Co 9:14 And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you.
2Co 9:15 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.

I know of one religion that makes it a rule to remain a "member in good standing" but it's not christian though they claim to be.

Anyway, I'm not sure where the tenth came from (OT?) but I would assume that's a good place to start then go from there.
Besides, if one tenth is good enough for God it should be good enough for the government. :smt037
Maybe we should approach the government first since they're taking a lot more than just one tenth. :

 

[Blazin Bones]

I'm curious. What in the New Testament says that the tithe is not for us today? After all, Christ did not abolish the law but completed it. Second. If we receive all things from God, what is wrong about giving 10% of your income back to the one who gave it to you? He gave Christ and therefore withheld nothing of his from us. Why should we withhold anything from Him? I do have a few New Testament passages that can shed some light on the subject of giving though. James 5:1-6, or Acts 5:1-11. I don't think God wants to force us to give anything to him, but I don't think the tithe is outdated either.

 

[Henry]

Anyway, I'm not sure where the tenth came from (OT?)[quote:30079]

Interestingly enough the 10% tithe dates to the 15th century, when the church of Rome owned lots of land around Europe and they charged farmers a thenth of their produce to use it, and that turned into a law. And now it is not a law of the land but is the law of the "church"

Brutus/HisCatalyst

[quote:30079]What in the New Testament says that the tithe is not for us today?

The tithe was a tax on the nation of isreal, the reason for the tithe was to pay the temple workers and support the poor.

The temple was the place where sacrafice was made on the nations behalf, and when Jesus died he made the final and last sacrafice for the world. (read the book of hebrews)

So, after Jesus made the last and final sacrafice for the sins of the world, there was no need for a temple any longer.

Think about it, Jesus came to fullfill the law. But what of sacrafices, we do not kill animals any more for our sins? So, the tax that was collected to pay for that, is no longer needed. Unless you want to hire men to kill animals on your behalf.

There is not tithe under the new convenant becuase there is not temple to support, it is now a temple not of the earth. (Read hebrews)

If we receive all things from God, what is wrong about giving 10% of your income back to the one who gave it to you?

Who said it was wrong to give? No one, and giving a tenth to a church organization IS NOT giving to God.

You see the tith now goes to pay for a building and salaries of pastors. And those things are just not biblical, the building is not and the office of pastor is not. So how are we giving money to God, when we support a man made thing, that is contrary to the very word of God.

Hey, give... as Jesus said to feed the poor, to clothe naked, to visit the sick, to visit those in prison, and welcome the stranger.

Oh, and before you say "My church does all that" it is not the job of the clegy to do those things, but yours and typically less then 12% of the money goes to any helps and only a small portion of that actually makes it to those in need.

So, we by no means say it is wrong to give. We are all for it, but in the way in which God has intended for his true work, not as rule which is sadly taught to be a law we must follow. And not to pay for buildings and salaries.

Why should we withhold anything from Him?

Are you really of the idea that by rejecting the doctrine of the tithe, that we do not have a heart to give.

Again, giving to an organized church group is not giving to God. So, the truth is that when you give money as a tithe you are holding back from God, by giving what he has given you to the wrong cause.

I don't think God wants to force us to give anything to him, but I don't think the tithe is outdated either.

[/quote:30079][/quote:30079]

You can not have it both ways, the tithe was a forced tax not a willfull giving. And what is the tithe for any more, the temple is voided in the new convenant and the church of the NT never would have built a building, there is not such thing as clergy, no pastor in the NT and nothing about a set salary for anyone.

 

[Henry]

Hebrews 9: 11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who throu.[gh the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! 15 .For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant,. that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritanceâ€â€.now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Okay, This I don't follow.

...giving to an organized church group is not giving to God.

If you were to make an arguement that the churches today do not do what the church is supposed to do, then I'd agree with you. However, I nor anyone have the right to say that giving to a church is not giving to God. That's for Him to decide.

I agree whole heartedly that a pastor is not to do the work of the church, but that the entire church is to be doing the work of the church. However, the position of a church leader, or the modern term pastor is indeed in the Bible. Just as Jesus directed the disciples and the disciples guided the church. Leadership is very important for the work of the Lord. I do not see a problem with paying the salary of a man who has focused his ministry on an area or a particular body of believers.

As for church buildings. Again, I do not see anything wrong with a building for centralizing the work of the body. The Early church fellowshipped in houses, what is wrong about building a building for the purpose of serving the Lord.

As for the church of today and the position of pastor not being biblical, then by that logic, we shouldn't be fellowshipping on a message board either...

As For the tenth which is what the church of today calls the tithe, it was given way before the time of the Temple and sin offerings. In Genesis 14 and Genesis 28, we see that the tenth was given by both Jacob and Abraham. I'll agree that the tithe does not serve the purpose it once did, but as I said before, Only God can decide if giving a tenth to a church is not giving to Him. After all, a true church, in a building or not, is to do the work of God. Let Him decide if building a building is a sin or out of place.

 

[Heidi]

Tithing is simply a suggestion of what percentage of income we give. Those of us under Christ do not look in our wallets to give the amount we read in a rule book. We give what our hearts lead us to give in accordance with our income. 10% is a guideline that will never lead us into poverty. But too much giving can be unwise and render us a financial burden to society.

 

[Blazin Bones]

^ That is true. 10% is a guideline, and a reasonable one. I'll be the first to say that you should give however much the Lord calls you to give, but the first 10% at least should go back to God and his service.

 

[Henry]

Brutus/HisCatalyst

John 1:12 But as many as received Him (Jesus), to them He gave the RIGHT to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

What rights to you supose a child of God has? Sit and listen, and say nothing?

I can say that giving to an organized building based church is not giving to God based on his word.

You see in the word of God he is very clear that the people are who he cares about, and when we give to a building based church, very little if any of that money goes to the people, it is consumed with the expenses of the building. As well as the salaries of men holding office in that building.

We are also taught that we are the body of Christ, and there for giving to the needs of each other is giving to God. But to give to a building, well that is for man not for God.

matt 25:31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,

36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.

....40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

However, the position of a church leader, or the modern term pastor is indeed in the Bible.

The word is used ONE time in the NT, with out any description and second the last I might add. I have no problem with someone that is pastor in his heart, but the modern office of pastor as the church leader is just not there.

Eph 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up.

Notice that these are gifts that are given the church, these are functions of men, for the building up of the body of Christ. They are not titles, or offices and they are not possitions of authority over one another.

If they where, the apostles and the prophets would be the top dogs, and most churches do not acknolege either. I always wonder how people have come to think the pastor is the one in charge, since he is the second to the last listed (the last if you are of the mind that pastor and teacher are the same thing).

Plus the fact that the bible never gives us any more information about the pastors office and all these duties we have placed in him.

What the bible does tell us however about church leadership is that it was done by a plurality of elders. And get that to shepard (pastor) is one of the functions they preform, as is overseer. There are one in the same persons doing these things.

The bible has elders who function as a pastor or shepard, or sometimes overseers and so on.

The Early church fellowshipped in houses, what is wrong about building a building for the purpose of serving the Lord.[/qoute]

Well that is easy, becuase the NT gives us certain values and practices that we are to imploy in a church meeting, and in the larger group and in the context of the modern church these things are not possible.

Tradition is a stong thing, hard to break and many will deffend it with out hessitation.

The problem is that our church tradition is not founded in the bible.

The early church fellowshiped in houses becuase that is where it best and easiest to practive the values they where taught.

For example, they ate together as communion. Which is the right way to do it, and when you have 100 or more people that becomes very hard to do each week, and what we end up with a crumb of cracker and sip of juice.

They also were very interactive each one bringing something to the meeting, and no one man ever dominated the meeting. The meeting was lead by the brothers not a pastor or preacher.

In a modern church, you can not do this in any real way. You sit in rows looking at the back of someone heads, one man does the talking and any intreraction from the croud is amens and uhumms.

And I would add as well that the church is a family and as such we should meet as a family, and that we do in our homes.

Not to mention how money the buildings cost to have around the first place, that takes from the needs of the people.

LOL and be carefull with the centralized thinking, God said GO into the world. He scattered the people at the tower of bable and he scattered the church as well. Each time they were trying to centralize themselves.

[quote:fcf9a]As for the church of today and the position of pastor not being biblical, then by that logic, we shouldn't be fellowshipping on a message board either...

That does not make any sence at all, the bible is not against writing letters which is all we are doing really. You are trying to make grape juice from prunes with this one.

After all, a true church, in a building or not, is to do the work of God. Let Him decide if building a building is a sin or out of place.

[/quote:fcf9a]

There is no A true church, there is just the church. Jesus has ONE body not many, that is another bad thinking of traditional churchers, this my church your church thing.

The fact is like it or not, that God is calling men out of the man made church and back into the true church that he paid for with his very own blood. All over the world house churches are thriving and before long, mark my words, house church will the norm everywhere.

All the major denominations know this and that is why they are making changes to adjust to this shift, I am so happen to work with one who has began a house church planting movement of their own.


Oh by the way a tithe is a tax you have to pay, nothing volunteery about it.

 

[Aslan]

Henry said: You see in the word of God he is very clear that the people are who he cares about, and when we give to a building based church, very little if any of that money goes to the people, it is consumed with the expenses of the building. As well as the salaries of men holding office in that building.

I think it depends on the church as to how much goes to supporting the church building. I know that many churches can do far more with the resources that they get than each individual can do on their own. Doesn't a home based church need to be paid for? Where churches go wrong is they go into debt to pay for the buildings. The bible is clear that debt is trouble and it is to be avoided. Also, it is biblical to support people who preach the gospel.

 

[Henry]

Aslan

The average church spends less very little money on any real outreach, nationally most the money goes to expence and adminstration. This is just a statistical fact, and any that are different then this are out of the norm.

As for the church being able to do more then indivduals, what is the church but a collection of indivuals. Without all the overhead imagine the money that could be used for the real work of God.

Doesn't a home based church need to be paid for?

Pay for what? We do not have the cost of a building, no rent, no electic bill, our leaders are not paid a salary, we simply have no overhead cost at all.

The food that we all share is part of the offering, and we already have to pay for our homes.

So, no the house church doies not need to be paid for.

And I would add that I have seen much greater giving and helps coming from the house church then the traditional churches that I was in before. No over head and red tape means more for the real work of God and easier to get it to the one in need.

We just helped one of our member with bills this month, he was injured and can not work. In no time we had all gotten up all that he needed and more.

This is the NT model, that each one sets aside something each week, and when there is a need then it is collected for that need.

Where churches go wrong is they go into debt to pay for the buildings.

No, where they go wrong it thinking they need a building set aside in the first place. You see what most people just do not seem to understand that is there are values and practices given to us in the NT as to the way are to meet together, and the church building is not only a violation of them, but prohibits us from practicing the rest as well.

Read 1 Cor 14:26 and to the end, notice when you get the end that Paul says this was the command of the Lord, not optional. See if this sounds like Trad, church especially the part about the first speaker sitting down when someone else has something to say.

Also, it is biblical to support people who preach the gospel.

It is also biblical that they support themselves as well, the problem is not in supporting those who are asked by the church to do a work. Hey, I am all for that! But what I am not for and we can not justify in the bible is salary clergy possition.

The NT does not know any pastor, and there is not distincion between clergy and layity, and so then how can it be biblical to pay a salary to a clearyman, if there is no such thing in the Bible?

No, support in the NT for church workers was given by the heart and not out of obligation and they where also told to work to help support themselves, they could not live on the church support alone.

And, mind that the phrase "It is better to give then receive" was said to church leaders, not to the layity (I say that for this thread, there was no layity)

Oh, and what is the gospel ? I know Trad, that support what they call church planters who are really just contractors in clergy robes building places. Since there is no building church in the NT and there is not even the idea of any such thing, it is really good to pay someone to do it.

Hey, support and giving GREAT ! For the REAL work of God, not for the bricks and glass man has made and dared called church and thinks he is doing the works of God.

God is not impressed with our building, he is impressed when we love each other.

So, if you want to give feed a hungry person and you have done the work of God.

Henry

 

[cj]

There is no A true church, there is just the church. Jesus has ONE body not many, that is another bad thinking of traditional churchers, this my church your church thing.

The fact is like it or not, that God is calling men out of the man made church and back into the true church that he paid for with his very own blood. All over the world house churches are thriving and before long, mark my words, house church will the norm everywhere.

All the major denominations know this and that is why they are making changes to adjust to this shift, I am so happen to work with one who has began a house church planting movement of their own.


Oh by the way a tithe is a tax you have to pay, nothing volunteery about it.

Henry, though there is a lot that you say that has truth to it, I am concerned about your motivation, as sometimes what I see presented just sounds like you want to replace a large meeting hall (a big building) for a small meeting hall (someone's house). And this is not the way to solve the problem.

It is as easy to end up building a high tower from a house meeting as it is from a large meeting. The outward is not so much the problem, it is the inward that God sees.

The matter of the tithe is one of an excercise in our full salvation.

Giving is about learning not to hold on to that which is not yours. And giving ten percent of your increase is a good place to start.

So tithing, in terms of giving ten percent of one's increse is not wrong, but what must also be considered is what this giving is being made to.



The house-church movement is not what will bring the Lord back, and there is nothing "correct" or orthodox about a house-church movement, as saints can meet anywhere at anytime in any number.

Meeting in house-church is not the "norm" in God's kingdom, meeting in Christ is.

What I read that you wrote above, is coming very close to the establishing of yet another apostate institution, just this time it will denominate itself "House-Church".


In love,
cj

 

[Aslan]

The average church spends less very little money on any real outreach, nationally most the money goes to expence and adminstration. This is just a statistical fact, and any that are different then this are out of the norm.

Can you tell me where to find these facts?

 

[Henry]

Asian

Are you doubting that most churches spend most the money they get on the PLACE?

They have the building itself to pay for, rent mortgage what ever, and then there are the utilities and the upkeep, then the grounds and the parking areas, then the insurance and salaries of its employees, and on top of all that are the taxes of varous kinds.

The tithe is known to be for the building and then MAY BE they take up an offering after for giving, and that is typically much smaller.

Sorry, but just some common sence is all one needs to see this.

cj

You have me all wrong, take some time to study before calling me apostate, we my friend are following the bible. And that is the word of God and that is who we must obey.

http://www.ntrf.org

Traditions are so hard to break.

 

[cj]

cj

You have me all wrong, take some time to study before calling me apostate, we my friend are following the bible. And that is the word of God and that is who we must obey.

http://www.ntrf.org

Traditions are so hard to break.

See Henry, I never called you apostate, so why then would you suggest I did?

You are quick to say that I should take some time to study the bible, but in your speaking here you set no example of a man who takes time himself.

.... "Don't do as I do, do as I say."

Sorry, this is not Christ.

You continue to say that "we my friend are following the bible.:

Well, the bible says don't be quick, and yet in your speaking above you exposed yourself as being quick. So maybe a more proper statement from you would be, "we my friend are following the bible in some things, but not all things."

And if not all things, then in nothing.

See, Christ is not just an arm or a leg, Christ is an entire Person. Therefore, being just a leg is not Christ. We need to be the whole Person, and this is where most believer's fall short.

And why? Because they try to gain the whole Person through works and not through suffering. And as was proven with the Jews in the OT, man struggles to accomplish a few requirements of the law, much less all of the law.

I would be bold to say that people that you've brought into your house-meetings have come as a result of the knowledge regarding this type of meeting rather than because of the life in such a meeting. Or in other words, the concept of a house-meeting aligned with their own thoughts, opinions, and preferences.

All natural, all the way of the fallen man.

Just as the letters in a bible can be dead, so too can a "meeting" that seems to be in line with scripture also be dead.

And this is the reason why I used the term apostate institution in my above speaking, which I repeat here.... "What I read that you wrote above,is coming very close to the establishing of yet another apostate institution, just this time it will denominate itself "House-Church".

Please note carefully that I specifically said "is coming very close to the establishing of yet another apostate institution," and not is an apostate institution.

An apostate institution is formed when men who say they believe, or even genuine believers, deviate from the Lord's word and become heretical, and deny the Lord's name by denominating herself, taking many other names, such as Lutheran, Wesleyan, Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist, etc.

Revelation  3 : 8, "I know your works; behold, I have put before you an opened door which no one can shut, because you have a little power... and have kept My word and have not denied My name."

Note that "keeping My word" comes first.

Now I know that you will say that in forming house-churches you are keeping the Lord's word, but this is not necessarily so, as all you might be doing is keeping the letter of the word (what you understand as instruction).

See, keeping the Lord's word can only be accomplished in one way, the way which is declared by the Lord in Revelation 3:10,

"Because you have kept.... the word of My endurance,.... I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth."

"kept the word of my endurance".... what does this mean?

Revelation  1 : 9, "I John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom.... and endurance in Jesus,.... was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus."

2 Thessalonians  3 : 5, "And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God.... and into the endurance of Christ."

Romans  5 : 3, "And not only so, but we also boast in our tribulations,... knowing that tribulation produces endurance;"


Endurance means to maintain something in the face of overwhelming opposition.

But maintain WHAT?

Revelation  1 : 3, "Blessed is he who reads and those.... who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things written in it.... for the time is near.

John  14 : 21, "He who has My commandments and keeps them, he is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will manifest Myself to him."

John  14 : 23 ---- John  14 : 24, "Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me."

John  17 : 6, "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me,.... and they have kept Your word."

And now the answer regarding the keeping of His word......

1 John  2 : 5, "But whoever keeps His word,..... truly in this one the love of God has been perfected...... In this we know that we are in Him."



.... truly in this one the love of God has been perfected.



You want to keep His word Henry....... then truly, be perfected in His love.


The proper way to meet is simply an issue out of the perfecting of the believer...... perfecting comes first, the proper meeting way follows.


Now, we come to the question, how is one perfected in the love of God?


In love,
cj