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The Heavenly Tabernacle

Joined
Oct 23, 2017
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#1
I'm wondering what people think of this guys line of thinking. He is suggesting that the book of Revelation is really a vision of worship within the Heavenly Tabernacle pictured in Hebrews 8 & 9. He is also suggesting that the trumpets, ark, and bowls poured out, symbolize the fulfillment of the Leviticus 23 feasts. Interesting, well presented and produced video, but the ideas are new:
URL link edited per Terms of Service rule 2:10.
 
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#2
Hi River, and I listened to the entire video and have the following impression of it. It appeared to be nothing more than an advertisement for sixteen minutes attempting to establish the heavenly tabernacle presented by Bruce Paul and Sky Productions.
Googling the site produced a site that cannot be reached. There is no identification of the Church or beliefs they put forth. Their introduction attempted to introduce direct connections to the coming kingdom temple with that of the Old Testament descriptions, and yet I read in
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Due to our rules pertaining to links presented by any member having less than twenty posts according to our Terms of Service rule 2:10, I had to edit it out. I truly think you'll get more answers to your questions by asking rather than presenting sixteen minutes of a video that really said nothing, and members will not take time to listen to. If these future tabernacle studies are your ideas also, do you have reason to believe that? Do you know of what church presents the study? Thanks.
 

for_his_glory

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#3
Hi Paul River and welcome to CF :wave2

Without seeing the video I think it is pretty clear in Rev Chapter 1 what Revelations is all about. The seven spirits given to the seven Churches in Asia which represents all of us being the body of Christ. The seven spirits are: wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, reverence, might and the Spirit of the Lord, Isaiah 11:2. John is to write in a book all the things he has seen, the things which are and the things he will be shown thereafter. All these things throughout revelations, which means the unveiling, are things which must come first before Christ returns.
 
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#4
This is one major rift between the beliefs of the Abrahamic religions

You have two schools of thought here:

~ A Third temple, ( an actual building ) will be built in Jerusalem

~ Jesus is the Temple itself, doing away with the need for a building

Now, ...if you look to the Tanakh, it says in Deuteronomy 18:1-2:

" The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.

" Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them "


...these two verses are more often than not interpreted to say " Levites cannot own land in Israel "

This presents a small problem when one reads Zechariah 6:12-13:

"Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD. "

" Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both "

Aaron and his sons were selected for the priesthood (Exodus 28:1)

Aaron was from the tribe of Levi ( Mentioned in Dueteronomy 18:1-2 )



-------------------

Now, when we look to the New Testament, we do indeed find that it says ( as mentioned above ):

Rev 21:22 " And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. "


This is interesting, because when we examine the two verses:

Rom 5:14 " Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come "

1Co 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. "

..we find Adam and Jesus, connected

But connected how, exactly ?

Well, when Roman's says:

" who is the figure of him that was to come ", it uses the word:

τυπος tupos {too'-pos} TDNT - 8:246,1193; n m AV - ensample 5, print 2, figure 2, example 2, pattern 2, fashion 1, manner 1, form 1; 16 1) the mark of a stroke or blow, print 2) a figure formed by a blow or impression 2a) of a figure or image 2b) of the image of the gods 3) form 3a) the teaching which embodies the sum and substance of religion and represents it to the mind, manner of writing, the contents and form of a letter 4) an example 4a) in the technical sense, the pattern in conformity to which a thing must be made 4b) in an ethical sense, a dissuasive example, a pattern of warning 4b1) of ruinous events which serve as admonitions or warnings to others 4c) an example to be imitated 4c1) of men worthy of imitation 4d) in a doctrinal sense 4d1) of a type i.e. a person or thing prefiguring a future (Messianic) person or thing

From 5180;

τυπτω tupto {toop'-to} a primary verb (in a strengthened form); TDNT - 8:260,1195; v AV - smite 9, beat 3, strike 1, wound 1; 14 1) to strike, beat, smite 1a) with a staff, a whip, the fist, the hand 1b) of mourners, to smite their breast 2) to smite one on whom he inflicts punitive evil 3) to smite 3a) metaph. i.e. to wound, disquiet one's conscience

( Tupto itself certainly points to the verses like Isaiah 53 and Hebrews 5:8, and the punishment exacted on Christ )

but more importantly, τυπος tupos ( pattern / figure / mark, etc ) is specifically used in:

Heb 8:5 " Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount "

This " pattern " ( tupos ) was for the building of the Tabernacle

So when Revelation says there is no temple, but that Jesus is the Temple, it specifically calls Jesus: the Tabernacle:


" And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he ( the Tabernacle ) will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God "

It's very interesting that from the root of " mark " , you essentially have the Tupos:

χαραγμα charagma {khar'-ag-mah}; TDNT - 9:416,1308; n n AV - mark 8, graven 1; 9 1) a stamp, an imprinted mark 1a) of the mark stamped on the forehead or the right hand as the badge of the followers of the Antichrist 1b) the mark branded upon horses 2) thing carved, sculpture, graven work 2a) of idolatrous images

from the same as 5482:

χαρακτηρ charakter {khar-ak-tare'}; TDNT - 9:418,1308; n m AV - express image 1; 1 1) the instrument used for engraving or carving 2) the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it 2a) a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13:28) or stamped on, an impression 2b) the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile

( That's the source of the English word " character " if you didn't catch it )

The two side-by-side:

τυπος tupos {too'-pos} , print , figure , example , pattern , fashion , manner , form ; ) the mark of a stroke or blow, ) a figure formed by a blow or impression

χαραγμα charagma {khar'-ag-mah}; - mark , graven,) a stamp, an imprinted mark


-----------------------------------

All very interesting considering the use of apotropaic traditions in the Bible ( dating to earlier Mesopotamian cultures )

I'll save the other topics like pouring of bowls / vials and trumpets for another time, as they can get quite extensive

Cheers ;)



 
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
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#5
Their introduction attempted to introduce direct connections to the coming kingdom temple with that of the Old Testament descriptions, and yet I read in Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Thanks for the feedback Eugene. I think the point of the video that resonates with me is that the Heavenly Tabernacle pictured in Hebrews 8 and 9 (that the wilderness tabernacle was fashioned after), is the prominent picture of the book of Revelation. I would suggest the the reference in Rev 21:22 is after everything is finished (new heaven and new earth), and the New Jerusalem (the church) are now one and the same as the Heavenly Tabernacle.

If these future tabernacle studies are your ideas also, do you have reason to believe that? Do you know of what church presents the study? Thanks.
I like these ideas, and think it makes a lot of sense. The video is just recently posted, so perhaps they have not launched yet - I've tried to find it as well.
 
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#6
If these future tabernacle studies are your ideas also, do you have reason to believe that?
I like these ideas, and think it makes a lot of sense.
Hi Brother Paul River, I do not know your past experience, but do you realize those saved in the Old Testament were done so by the grace of God also? 1 Cor 10:4. . . they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Ritual and law keeping never provided the necessary element of deliverance. Even Moses sinned a sin unto physical death for not believing God. All the law was a ministration of death written in stones (2 Cor 3:7) only made them aware of their lack if they listened.
Deut 32:50 . . . die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people . . .
Deut 32:51 . . . Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel . . .

As to having a temple again, are you aware Israel doesn't need a temple to sacrifice?
Ezr 3:6 From the first day of the seventh month began they to offer burnt offerings unto the LORD. But the foundation of the temple of the LORD was not yet laid.

I'll leave off here for the moment and see if it helps you see things that might be interesting to going forward with this. :)
 
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#7
I'm not sure I'm following your point, Eugene. Hebrews 8:1-5 tells us that Messiah (our High Priest - in the order of Melchizedek) now serves in true true, Heavenly Tabernacle - from which the wilderness tabernacle was fashioned after. As Bruce pointed out in his video, after Messiah's death, he entered this "Heavenly Tabernacle" to offer his own blood, once for all:

Hebrews 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

In other words, there was a spiritual component of Messiah's sacrifice that was carried out in the Heavenly Tabernacle, and the book of Revelation calls out this Heavenly Tabernacle several times, in: Revelation 7:15, 13:6, 15:5, and 21:3. Bruce is just saying that the whole book of Revelation is a picture of worship within this very same Heavenly Tabernacle.
 
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#8
Hi Paul River. I suppose I too do not know the purpose you're attempting to bring forth as to Jesus having to go to heaven to offer blood, that which He shed on the cross. Are you saying a third temple must be built?
You bring forth the tribulation saints of Rev 7:15 before the throne, and yet not the twenty-four elders round bout the new throne (Rev 4:4) of Jesus in Rev 4:2, or of the four beasts of Rev 4:6 round about and in the midst of the throne.

Are you aware these too are yet future beyond this present age of the Church beginning with the Lord's Day, or the Day of the Lord?
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

You speak of a picture. What is there in the tribulation represented by the original temple? Is there a two hundred million army brought forth the temple of old? Those of the beast passing out judgment of Revelation Chapter Six
I read the following scripture and lose the object of why other than our Lord taking power in His Day is of concern?
Do the following verses seem to you to have a continuing offering of blood?

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
he entered this "Heavenly Tabernacle" to offer his own blood, once for all:
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.

Do you see Jesus offering His blood there, or having spilled it our for all while on the earth?

Thanks.
 
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
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#9
I suppose I too do not know the purpose you're attempting to bring forth as to Jesus having to go to heaven to offer blood, that which He shed on the cross. Are you saying a third temple must be built?
Dear Eugene - I'm not saying anything. The book of Hebrews says: "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
(Hebrews 9:11, 12)

What would you suggest, "the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation" was; other than the tabernacle "IN HEAVEN", from which the earthly (Moses') Tabernacle had been fashioned:

Hebrews 8:1-5 Now the MAIN POINT in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses [d]was warned by God when he was about to erect the [e]tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.”

I'm agreeing with the writer of Hebrews when I say . . . there has always been, and currently exists a Tabernacle "IN HEAVEN" in which Messiah now serves as our High Priest (under the order of Melchizedek - not the Levitical Priesthood). It is this Heavenly Tabernacle that Messiah took his own blood, and offered it to God for our redemption; as we find in Hebrews 9:11, 12.

This is not a continuation of earthly sacrifices - the offering took place in heaven!
 
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#10
Hi River, and I listened to the entire video and have the following impression of it. It appeared to be nothing more than an advertisement for sixteen minutes attempting to establish the heavenly tabernacle presented by Bruce Paul and Sky Productions.
Googling the site produced a site that cannot be reached. There is no identification of the Church or beliefs they put forth. Their introduction attempted to introduce direct connections to the coming kingdom temple with that of the Old Testament descriptions, and yet I read in
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Due to our rules pertaining to links presented by any member having less than twenty posts according to our Terms of Service rule 2:10, I had to edit it out. I truly think you'll get more answers to your questions by asking rather than presenting sixteen minutes of a video that really said nothing, and members will not take time to listen to. If these future tabernacle studies are your ideas also, do you have reason to believe that? Do you know of what church presents the study? Thanks.
Brother, if John seen no Temple as God is the Temple and earlier in revelation he was told to measure the Temple, thats proof the 2nd Temple was still standing when revelation was penned.

I believe it was penned sometime before 70ad and up to 70ad.

From Christs ressurection to 70ad it was all go. Everything was happening. The diciples were preaching to the nations, baptism was going hard, there was persecution, Paul was preaching, Paul was warning, John was warning the churches and giving the revelation of Christ and what was about to come. All in that generation.

They say revelation was penned after 80ad under emperor persecution and John was exciled on Patmos.

The Temple was still standing and persecution was already happening way before 80ad. Look at Paul.

This is undeniable the 2nd temple. And also the only other mention of a Temple is the heavenly Temple and Jerusalem.

I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. But exclude the outer court do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months
 
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#11
I'm wondering what people think of this guys line of thinking. He is suggesting that the book of Revelation is really a vision of worship within the Heavenly Tabernacle pictured in Hebrews 8 & 9. He is also suggesting that the trumpets, ark, and bowls poured out, symbolize the fulfillment of the Leviticus 23 feasts. Interesting, well presented and produced video, but the ideas are new:
URL link edited per Terms of Service rule 2:10.
Welcome aboard.
You got a lot of long posts in your welcome wagon.
I Corinthians 6:19 KJV
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Luke 17:21 KJV
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Revelation 3:20 KJV
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I could get off into thousands of words, but for now just get to know our spirits.

Redneck from Mississippi
eddif