The Holy Spirit Does Not Guide You Into All Truth!

[GodsGrace]

OK...
But what about Hezekiah?
(One of my favorite questions lately)

Let me put it to you in this way.

I have recurring bronchitis. When I get sick I go to the doctor. The doctor went to school and learned how to deal with sick pups like me. The doctor then tells me what pills to take and how often. I rely upon his/her education and experience and research into the subject even though it's my body.
Now...
If I went to the doctor and he said, " Don't Tell me anything about your problem, I didn't go to school, but I'm going to pray and the Holy Spirit is going to tell me all I need to know about how to heal your problem that I know nothing about.....

I'm getting another doctor.
I'd be an idiot not to.

But for some reason people want to create magic solutions out of their imaginations instead of actually harnessing what God has spent the lives of some of his favorite people to create...the Bible.
It isn't like everyone is going to study hard or is able to sift through the sciences of history and anthropology and geography and psychology to get the truth....or at the same time see the beauty of the arts of language applied to the words on the page and extract what the Bible says.

It's pure pride and ego to think that prayer alone with no action is all that's needed to be a powerful agent for God. And then a whole bunch of idiots with itching ears who actually give the egomaniac a pulpit and venue to speak from.

And it happens every day.

I agree with all you've said...
Except for one thing:
If you go to two doctors you'll get two opinions...
Now what?

 

[JohnDB]

I agree with all you've said...
Except for one thing:
If you go to two doctors you'll get two opinions...
Now what?

That's been a thing lately. One doc wants to over-medicate me and the other wants to do nothing. Either way I'm going to die. So doctors (IMHO) will kill you.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Hi Papa Zoom,
What a great thread!
How many times have I mentioned this in the past two years --- many times.

So. Let's take a test and see how many different understandings we could come up with just for John 16:13 !

Just before this Jesus is talking about understanding what is to come, the cross. The Holy Spirit will guide us into understanding what happened at the cross.
We DO all seem to agree on that.

But then He goes on to say that the Holy Spirit will explain everything that Jesus said and did.

This is where the problems begin.
Did Jesus say we only need to believe to be saved?
Did He say some works are necessary?
Which ones?
Are we saved once and forever?
Or could we lose our salvation?

I think that perhaps one may go to a church and learn doctrine and then never think about it again so that when he enters into a conversation, he will always fall back on the doctrine he learned as a new Christian.

Maybe someone hears a nice sermon and likes what the pastor is saying and clings to that.

Maybe some doctrine is just easier to believe.

So why doesn't the Holy Spirit take care of the above problems?
Because as God made us human and with our limited resources, we will always take them with us. Perhaps we're not really open to the Holy Spirit, taking our sin nature with us wherever we go - even to learning about God.

Some ask did Jesus fail?
I don't think Jesus failed, I think we fail.
Paul, knowing our nature and what was already happening by the time he started to preach, said we see as in a mirror darkly and will not see everything clearly until we see Jesus face to face.

We tend to pluck verses out to confirm what we believe.
The bible is an entirely complete idea, but it's not easy to see it that way.

As for me, personally, I think I've understood correctly what I think I've understood; what I have doubts about, I don't insist.

With the full understanding that I might have everything wrong, but if I trust Jesus, He'll get me through.

As usual, well said. I heard this today. Many of us have heard people say, "The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it!" But I say, "The Bible says it, I interpret it, that doesn't settle it!" It seems I'm the problem - not always - but most of the time. Where I'm certain, I move forward but keep an open mind. Where I doubt, I continue pressing on toward the truth knowing I may never settle certain questions or issues. That's okay. God is always still God and I'm good with that. ;)

edited to add" I believe it,

 

[MarkT]

Yes, to them but not to us! We know only in part. We do not, nor will we ever know fully this side of death.

What does yes to them but not to us mean? Seems like you are making a distinction between them and us. Did they know all the truth? Didn't Paul include himself when he said, 'For now we see only dimly'? So how can you say yes to them?

for us yes but not to us that was my earlier point

I said the Bible was written for us. For our benefit. What does not to us mean?

 

[MarkT]

Why this thread was started in the first place is to get people to think honestly about what they think they know. Only the arrogant fall back on "The HS led me to this truth." And 4 different theologians with 4 different positions were ALL led by the HS to 4 different conclusions.

1 Corinthians 13:12King James Version (KJV) 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Truth is none of you KNOW anything in the same way God knows it. You believe what you believe and you certainly are right on many things. But NOT all things.

One thing many of you lack is the humility to admit to that. Like RC Sproul always says, "I could be wrong but this is what I believe and here is why I believe it."

Not true. There are some who follow the Lord, and nothing, no theologian, can sway them.

 

[MarkT]

I'd say we are still growing in the knowledge of God, so why we don't know everything is not a fair question. Not that our knowledge is perfect, but there is growth, and where there is growth, there is life.

The Spirit does indeed guide us into all the truth. Day by day. God is true and what comes from God is true.

 

[Papa Zoom]

What does yes to them but not to us mean? Seems like you are making a distinction between them and us. Did they know all the truth? Didn't Paul include himself when he said, 'For now we see only dimly'? So how can you say yes to them?

I said the Bible was written for us. For our benefit. What does not to us mean?

The letter to the Corinthians was not written to you. It was written to them. This is the most obvious example. So when we read Paul's writings, we ought to consider both the culture in which it was written and the intended audience.

Reading John 14 one cannot miss that Jesus is comforting His Disciples. He was talking to them specifically about their situation with Him. Christians quote verse 26 and make the claim that it was written for them and therefore the theology they hold is from the guidance of the HS.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I'd say we are still growing in the knowledge of God, so why we don't know everything is not a fair question. Not that our knowledge is perfect, but there is growth, and where there is growth, there is life.

The Spirit does indeed guide us into all the truth. Day by day. God is true and what comes from God is true.

But you've yet to define exactly what you mean by that. Yes we grow in knowledge and yes the Spirit guides us. But we know in part and that won't ever change. The truth we do know we know from the HS.

Yet, there are different versions of any particular "truth" out there so obviously some have NOT been guided into truth by the HS but have been guided into error by their own efforts. There's plenty of evidence that error abounds in the Church.

If two people disagree on any one thing (easy to find this) then either they are both in error (their belief is not true) or one is in error and the other knows the truth. But both may claim they have the truth by the HS!

Often, the "truth" one holds is just a personal interpretation and a matter of personal belief.

 

[MarkT]

The letter to the Corinthians was not written to you. It was written to them. This is the most obvious example. So when we read Paul's writings, we ought to consider both the culture in which it was written and the intended audience.

Reading John 14 one cannot miss that Jesus is comforting His Disciples. He was talking to them specifically about their situation with Him. Christians quote verse 26 and make the claim that it was written for them and therefore the theology they hold is from the guidance of the HS.

Yes but it is included in the Bible for us.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Yes but it is included in the Bible for us.

Well I agree with that. So is Jeremiah 29:11. But it's specifically to Israel and the promises that follow are not for us but only for them.

Me: "Dear God, want do you want me to do with my life?"
God: "What would you like to do?"
Me: "I was thinking of teaching elementary school."
God: "Sounds good to me!"
Me: "Will you bless me then?"
God: "Already have my son, already have."

 

[GodsGrace]

I'd say we are still growing in the knowledge of God, so why we don't know everything is not a fair question. Not that our knowledge is perfect, but there is growth, and where there is growth, there is life.

The Spirit does indeed guide us into all the truth. Day by day. God is true and what comes from God is true.

HOW does one grow in knowledge?
By reading the bible and then waiting for the Holy Spirit to say something?
And when He does, it's usually something personal just for us and should not be put forth as a teaching, or it's an enlightenment of some type.

But how do we know that enlightenment is true?
Why not listen to theologians? They're the ones that have studied and know what verses mean.

Sometimes I read these posts and some persons make it sound like they telephone the Holy Spirit and have a conversation with Him on a daily basis.
Makes me feel badly that I don't have His phone number.

So what's wrong with learning?
Doesn't eveyone here on this forum have the Holy Spirit?
Why is it always insinuated that those who study do not have the Spirit of God within them?

This is rather insulting, to tell you the truth.

 

[MarkT]

Well I agree with that. So is Jeremiah 29:11. But it's specifically to Israel and the promises that follow are not for us but only for them.

Me: "Dear God, want do you want me to do with my life?"
God: "What would you like to do?"
Me: "I was thinking of teaching elementary school."
God: "Sounds good to me!"
Me: "Will you bless me then?"
God: "Already have my son, already have."

I am the one reading the Bible. Israel isn't reading the words. I am reading. I am Israel in spirit, so I have an interest in (I am invested in) what the prophet said to Israel. I have a desire to know the word of God because God is my Father. His Spirit guides me to his word.

So everything (all) the Spirit hears (the truth), he will declare to you (the reader and his disciple) John 16:13-15

 

[Papa Zoom]

I am the one reading the Bible. Israel isn't reading the words. I am reading. I am Israel in spirit, so I have an interest in (I am invested in) what the prophet said to Israel. I have a desire to know the word of God because God is my Father. His Spirit guides me to his word.

So everything (all) the Spirit hears (the truth), he will declare to you (the reader and his disciple) John 16:13-15

Well that last part you made up because it doesn't say "the reader" so that rather proves my point: It's not what the Bible says it's your interpretation of what you think the Bible says (means).

 

[Papa Zoom]

HOW does one grow in knowledge?
By reading the bible and then waiting for the Holy Spirit to say something?
And when He does, it's usually something personal just for us and should not be put forth as a teaching, or it's an enlightenment of some type.

But how do we know that enlightenment is true?
Why not listen to theologians? They're the ones that have studied and know what verses mean.

Sometimes I read these posts and some persons make it sound like they telephone the Holy Spirit and have a conversation with Him on a daily basis.
Makes me feel badly that I don't have His phone number.

So what's wrong with learning?
Doesn't eveyone here on this forum have the Holy Spirit?
Why is it always insinuated that those who study do not have the Spirit of God within them?

This is rather insulting, to tell you the truth.

Yes, every believer has the Holy Spirit and the HS works with them in their walk and growth in the Lord. Still, we have to do the work. We read and we study and yes, we ought to read the ideas of theologians.

There really isn't a "simple reading of the text" because we don't even have the original language and cultural background working to our advantage. We read a word and say, "ah ha! The Bible says this!" But is it that simple? I say no. So when I read the Bible, I come away with lots of questions to explore rather than a theology or doctrine to practice.

I remember reading this book: https://www.christianbook.com/bruchko-bruce-olson/9781591859932/pd/59939
It's a great book to read but there was one example that stand out. Unfortunately I can't remember exactly the word problem Bruce Olson faced but I found this on Wikipedia. It illustrates the point I'm making exactly.

You are a young missionary and want to explain what it means to have faith. But there's no word for faith in the native's language. There's no concept for that. What word will you use? Bruce Olson used the word for hammock. Hammock = faith. And how about the Bible = a Banana Stalk!
Here's the highlight from the quote below: ""Bruchko, I've tied my hammock strings into Jesus. Now I speak a new language." For the Barí, "language" is equivalent to life. Bobarishora spoke of having a new life, suspended in Jesus."

Initially, some of the Barí had wondered if Olson might be the tall man with yellow hair from the prophecy, but as he did not carry a banana stalk, they soon abandoned that belief. One day in 1965, Olson's pact-brother Bobarishora cut open a banana stalk, and the leaves inside splayed out, like the pages of a book. Olson pointed to his Bible and said, "This is God's banana stalk!" Olson recounted a Barí legend he had learned, about a Barí man wanting to help a group of ants build a good home, but because he was so big and different, the ants scattered in fear. Miraculously, the man was transformed into an ant, and as an ant, he was able to show the other ants how to improve their home. Olson used that story to describe how God became incarnate in Jesus, and "walked our trail." Olson described the death of Jesus, and his resurrection, and told the Barí that the Bible tells the story of Jesus.

Many nights later, Bobarishora asked Olson how he could walk on Jesus' trail. Olson had difficulty explaining "faith" in the Barí language. Olson reminded Bobarishora of one of his first celebrations with the tribe, when he was afraid to climb into one of the high-strung hammocks loved by the Barí, to swing free and sing songs with the tribe. He had wanted to keep one foot on the ground, but Bobarishora had told him that he could only sing if he was fully suspended in the hammock. Olson said, "That is how it is when you follow Jesus, Bobby (Bobarishora). No man can tell you how to walk His trail. Only Jesus can. But to find out you have to tie your hammock strings into Him and be suspended in God." Two days later, Bobarishora told Olson, "Bruchko, I've tied my hammock strings into Jesus. Now I speak a new language." For the Barí, "language" is equivalent to life. Bobarishora spoke of having a new life, suspended in Jesus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Olson

Imagine if we went about the world spreading the Good News and telling people they needed to tie their hammocks to Jesus. The Bari wold get it but not likely many others would get the connection. We all read the Bible in a language in which it was not written. We try to understand it from our own culture (which as the above story shows, can work) but I think in many cases, we read too much of our own culture into the text and neglect the culture from which it came!

Reading this book caused me to ask if the ideas in the biblical autographs are accurately conveyed through our language and the words chosen by the translators. I rather like the idea of tying my hammock strings to Jesus. But it would be meaningless in the English Bible while it perfectly captures the Gospel in the Bari language. That's because it corresponds to the Original's intent. ;)

IMHO

 

[MarkT]

Well that last part you made up because it doesn't say "the reader" so that rather proves my point: It's not what the Bible says it's your interpretation of what you think the Bible says (means).

I'm the reader and I am also a disciple. That's why I said the reader and his disciple.

Yes it is my understanding. I can read. And yes, I can think.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I'm the reader and I am also a disciple. That's why I said the reader and his disciple.

Yes it is my understanding. I can read. And yes, I can think.

It's not directed at you personally. My objection is that many Christians read the same passage, and come to different conclusions. But they claim they are understanding correctly. I run into this all the time. When challenged they claim they "prayed" that God would give them understanding. Put 10 Christians in a room, discuss baptism, and watch the disagreements follow. You can't sprinkle, yes you can! It's necessary for salvation, not it's not!!! On and on. All reading the same text but holding to vastly different views.

And this sort of problem is everywhere. It's in every church, every nation, every culture. So this idea that the HS lead someone to this or that conclusion generally gets my skeptic hat a buzzin. The HS is NOT the author of confusion. Something's wrong and I think it's us.

 

[Randy]

Ok, kill me now. Or better yet, hear me out.

John 16:13 However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.

People I've talked to always refer to this verse to explain that the Holy Spirit guides people into understanding the Truths of God's word. This has always confused me. That's because I've noticed that throughout my life, Christians have different understandings of what the Bible is saying on any given issue. So what's going on?

I don't think this verse means what people think it means. Clearly, the Holy Spirit doesn't guide any of into all truth because if He did, we'd know everything.

We'd all agree on everything because it would be from God. No divisions.

We wouldn't need each other for the "iron sharpens iron" thing because what's better that the HS?

AND if it were true that the HS guides us into ALL truth, then this verse seems contradictory.

1 Corinthians 13:12King James Version (KJV)
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

So chew on that and lets talk (nicely) about what this could mean. I think John 16:13 is quoted and applied out of its greater context. I'll share more on that later. I'd like to hear (positive and non-emotional) comments first to see if anyone has wondered about this as well.

I put this in apologetics because it has to do with understanding and defending what we believe to be true. A skeptic could ask how it is we don't know everything since we claim the HS will guide us into all truth.

I think there is a difference between all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge and truth.

Ok, kill me now. Or better yet, hear me out.

John 16:13 However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.

People I've talked to always refer to this verse to explain that the Holy Spirit guides people into understanding the Truths of God's word. This has always confused me. That's because I've noticed that throughout my life, Christians have different understandings of what the Bible is saying on any given issue. So what's going on?

I don't think this verse means what people think it means. Clearly, the Holy Spirit doesn't guide any of into all truth because if He did, we'd know everything.

We'd all agree on everything because it would be from God. No divisions.

We wouldn't need each other for the "iron sharpens iron" thing because what's better that the HS?

AND if it were true that the HS guides us into ALL truth, then this verse seems contradictory.

1 Corinthians 13:12King James Version (KJV)
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

So chew on that and lets talk (nicely) about what this could mean. I think John 16:13 is quoted and applied out of its greater context. I'll share more on that later. I'd like to hear (positive and non-emotional) comments first to see if anyone has wondered about this as well.

I put this in apologetics because it has to do with understanding and defending what we believe to be true. A skeptic could ask how it is we don't know everything since we claim the HS will guide us into all truth.

I think there is a difference between knowing all things as in all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge which are hidden in Christ Jesus and truth. Also since Jesus is preparing the disciples for his impending departure I believe He is stating the Church (after His departure) will receive truth from the HS according to the will of the mind of the Spirit. Hence all truth in the future, given by the will of God, will be declared via the Spirit to those whom God choses to use.
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever-
No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, every believer has the Holy Spirit and the HS works with them in their walk and growth in the Lord. Still, we have to do the work. We read and we study and yes, we ought to read the ideas of theologians.

There really isn't a "simple reading of the text" because we don't even have the original language and cultural background working to our advantage. We read a word and say, "ah ha! The Bible says this!" But is it that simple? I say no. So when I read the Bible, I come away with lots of questions to explore rather than a theology or doctrine to practice.

I remember reading this book: https://www.christianbook.com/bruchko-bruce-olson/9781591859932/pd/59939
It's a great book to read but there was one example that stand out. Unfortunately I can't remember exactly the word problem Bruce Olson faced but I found this on Wikipedia. It illustrates the point I'm making exactly.

You are a young missionary and want to explain what it means to have faith. But there's no word for faith in the native's language. There's no concept for that. What word will you use? Bruce Olson used the word for hammock. Hammock = faith. And how about the Bible = a Banana Stalk!
Here's the highlight from the quote below: ""Bruchko, I've tied my hammock strings into Jesus. Now I speak a new language." For the Barí, "language" is equivalent to life. Bobarishora spoke of having a new life, suspended in Jesus."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Olson

Imagine if we went about the world spreading the Good News and telling people they needed to tie their hammocks to Jesus. The Bari wold get it but not likely many others would get the connection. We all read the Bible in a language in which it was not written. We try to understand it from our own culture (which as the above story shows, can work) but I think in many cases, we read too much of our own culture into the text and neglect the culture from which it came!

Reading this book caused me to ask if the ideas in the biblical autographs are accurately conveyed through our language and the words chosen by the translators. I rather like the idea of tying my hammock strings to Jesus. But it would be meaningless in the English Bible while it perfectly captures the Gospel in the Bari language. That's because it corresponds to the Original's intent. ;)

IMHO

What a great post !
I looked into the book and am hoping I'll be able to get it in English through Amazon here. Otherwise, I'll have my son mail it to me from Conn.

Although I hate it when persons want to discuss the Greek, as if understanding the English isn't difficult enough! , but I also understand that something is lost.
I do believe that we do get all the important messages from our bibles.

As far as the hammock...
I like that idea.
A hammock is something you rest on. We rest on Jesus.
A hammock is tied to something strong to hold it up -- trees.
Jesus is our strength. He holds us up.
He's our permanent center of gravity to which we could hang on securely.

The banana stalk...
Well, I guess the bible is our daily food !

Thanks for sharing such nice ideas.

 

[Papa Zoom]

As far as the hammock...
I like that idea.
A hammock is something you rest on. We rest on Jesus.
A hammock is tied to something strong to hold it up -- trees.
Jesus is our strength. He holds us up.
He's our permanent center of gravity to which we could hang on securely.

A great picture of resting in Jesus. And also a great picture that Jesus will hold us up. We are secure in Him! No wonder the native people were able to understand having faith. They lived it everyday.

 

[ezra]

Only in part. We don't have all Truth, we only know in part. We never have had all Truth and never will. As for the Spirit leading us to understand the Bible, I agree. The problem is all Christians think with their brain too and if they think it, they assume that thinking came from God. Which is why we have a multitude of different beliefs (and have had from the beginning) This is the point of the OP.

If it was God's intention that we'd know all truth then we'd know it. We don't know all truth because that's not what God promised. We know in part. And even what we think we know is flawed.

No one has a perfect theology. Only man who ever did was Jesus. No one before him has and no one after him has. If you disagree, show me that person.

i can agree with this

The problem is all Christians think with their brain too and if they think it, they assume that thinking came from God. Which is why we have a multitude of different beliefs (and have had from the beginning) This is the point of the OP.