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The IMPOSSIBLE THREAD ON partial PRETERISM !!

Anto9us

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#1
It's impossible for different reasons -- first-off, it must deal with what we know as partial preterism -- because promoting FULL Preterism is verboten at CFnet

It's also impossible because I AM NOT ONE, neither am I to be labelled a current holder of ANY systematic eschatology, so it's impossible cuz whatever I say about Partial Preterism, some EDITED will come along and say "Oh, you are MISREPRESENTING Partial Preterism!"

The terms EDITED, fly-away, Post Toastie, half-and-half, etc -- are meant in jest to refer to Partial Preterist, Pre-Tribber, Post-Tribber and Mid-Tribber... and maybe more humorous terms for other eschatologies can be developed in this impossible thread.

I first want to start out with one undeniable, historical fact -- the Temple at Jerusalem was indeed destroyed in 70 AD, exactly as Jesus predicted -- to the very degree that "not one stone was left upon another" -- although Titus would have liked NOT to destroy it, his men caught it on fire; gold in the Temple melted into the very cracks of the stones, the Roman soldiers tore the stones apart with crowbars, taking the gold as part of their booty in warfare.

This HAPPENNED.

And it is the most dramatic incident of a prophecy by Jesus that was LITERALLY FULFILLED of anything I know of
 
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Anto9us

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#2
So partial preterists jump up and down on 70 ad Temple destruction as the LEAD ITEM in Olivet Discourse, the disciples asked their question "When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming (Parousia), and of the end of the age (aeon)?"

They asked this precisely because Jesus told them not one stone would be left upon another; it is possible they lumped too much into their question -- making three items rolled into one -- instead of simply saying
"when will the Temple be torn down so not one stone sits upon another?"

The type of preterists who cannot be mentioned would say that the 'end of the age' refers not to the end of the WORLD; but the end of the Mosaic era - the end of the whole Jewish system
 

Anto9us

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#3
As to the sign of your coming (Parousia), Luke probably more than the other synoptic gospels really pinpoints Temple Destruction -- "Jerusalem compassed with armies - when you see that -- head for the hills"
and Christians DID INDEED flee to Pella at this time, this is another thing that HAPPENNED
 

Anto9us

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#4
The
______________________ (fill in the blank) Doctrine

is a foul perfidious wind blown up from the pits of hell by the hot breath of Beelzebub to lead people astray!!, yada yada yada, etc etc.

Fill in the blank with WHATEVER ESCHATOLOGY YOU DISAGREE WITH -- PreTrib, Preterism, PostTrib, what have ya.

Often these endtimes discussions can get volatile like this
I don't have any dog in this fight, I just want to look at Scripture and History

so don't let the rocks loose from your hands at me just yet.
 

Anto9us

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#5
In general, I would say that Prettie arguments/explanations are pretty thorough for Olivet Discourse and book of Revelation, but kinda weak as to 2 Thess 2 and Daniel

But these have to be addressed -- because some explanation has to be given for what in the world happened - and when -- that could be seen in any way as fulfillment of Daniel's 70th week

and of the Man of Sin/Son of Perdition that The Lord destroyed with the brightness of his Parousia (if in fact that can be said to have happened in any way, even figuratively or metaphorically)
 

Anto9us

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#6
1Th 5:3 For G1063 when G3752 they shall say, G3004 Peace G1515 and G2532 safety; G803 then G5119 sudden G160 destruction G3639 cometh upon G2186 them, G846 as G5618 travail G5604 upon G1722 a woman with child; G1064 G2192 and G2532 they shall G1628 G0 not G3364 escape. G1628

I didn't mean to limit Thessalonians to just ch 2 -- the above verse (sorry for all the Strong's listings) -- is really a good verse for mid-trib

I have never been mid-trib, nor known one -- but certainly PEACE AND SAFETY might exist at the mid-point of a future 70th week

It certainly does not exist now
neither did it exist anytime in the years before 70 AD -- there was war a handful of years before the Temple was razed
 

Anto9us

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#7
So can a single eschatological system emerge that answers NOT JUST Olivet Discourse and Revelation, but Thessalonians, Daniel, and a host of Old Testament prophets who have "Day of the Lord" references?

Maybe not impossible -- but it hasn't happened yet -- sincere Christians hold differing views
 

Anto9us

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#8
2Pe 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


2Pe 3:11

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,


2Pe 3:12

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


2Pe 3:13

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


It seems a standard Prettie answer that "heaven and earth" symbolize "the Mosaic system" and this and other references are to the passing away of the Jewish law in common apocalyptic symbolic language
 

Anto9us

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#9
Even the term "Partial Preterist" is kinda weak, it seems "half-way" and "lukewarm" sounding, but it's really not.
 
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#10
Is there any biblical precedent for the "gap" theory of 2000 years in between 69th and 70th week of Daniel?

I am not comfortable with the idea of
"well, the PROPHETIC CLOCK STOPPED and will start again either after a pretrib rapture or upon the appearance of Beast/Antichrist..."

two times I know of -- it was prophesied a certain number of years would pass,
1. the Jews would be in Egypt so many years, then escape --
2. Jeremiah predicted 70 years for the Jews being in exile in Babylon, then allowed to return

in these blocks of time -- the years RAN SEQUENTIALLY, from start to finish...

what justification is there for Daniel's "70 shauvim" to be any different ? -- a special case where
"oh, but THIS TIME, there is a STOPPING -- 2000 plus years -- then a STARTING AGAIN to have the final 'week' of seven years"

Pretribbers, I guess midtribbers, and some posttribbers believe in this GAP; this STOPPING and resuming again later at some point of Daniel's 70 weeks

but I am uneasy with this "Timeout! King's X!! Clock stops and will resume later!!" type of thought

I lean towards 70th week being future, but am still uncomfortable with the GAP
OTOH, I cannot see any explanation -- no matter how figurative or metaphorical, that the 70th week has occurred
"I lean towards 70th week being future, but am still uncomfortable with the GAP"


Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



Do you agree that the one week referred to in Daniel 9:27 is what is commonly referred to as Daniel's 70th week?

.
 

Anto9us

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#11
yes, the one week is Daniel's 70th week

I will repeat here what I posted in the other thread

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

end of 69th week

And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

above happens after 69th week, but before 70th week - so i guess there is evidence of a gap


27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:24-27
 
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#12
yes, the one week is Daniel's 70th week

I will repeat here what I posted in the other thread

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

end of 69th week

And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

above happens after 69th week, but before 70th week - so i guess there is evidence of a gap


27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:24-27

If we agree that Daniel 9:27 refers to the 70th week, then who is it that shall confirm a covenant with many? What covenant is confirmed?
 

Anto9us

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#13
JLB's emphasis on the THREE DISTINCT PERIODS helped greatly, especially when I saw 'something happened" between end of 69th and start of 70th

This confirms to me that 70th week is yet future

it settles nothing on Partial Preterism, or for that matter, between pretrib or posttrib
 

Anto9us

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#14
"If we agree that Daniel 9:27 refers to the 70th week, then who is it that shall confirm a covenant with many? What covenant is confirmed?"

Grammatically, the "He' in 'he shall confirm' would be the PRINCE of the PEOPLE who came and destroyed city and sanctuary; throwing some substantiation to the idea of a "revived Roman Empire" -- which I have never taken that seriously before...

the covenant -- I guess -- would be with the Jews
 
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#15
"If we agree that Daniel 9:27 refers to the 70th week, then who is it that shall confirm a covenant with many? What covenant is confirmed?"

Grammatically, the "He' in 'he shall confirm' would be the PRINCE of the PEOPLE who came and destroyed city and sanctuary; throwing some substantiation to the idea of a "revived Roman Empire" -- which I have never taken that seriously before...

the covenant -- I guess -- would be with the Jews
What if the "He" that is spoken of was Jesus Christ, and the covenant that He confirmed was what is commonly referred to as the "New Covenant"? And that half way through that particular week, that there was a sacrifice made upon a cross, a sacrifice whose blood actually confirmed this covenant?
 

Anto9us

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#16
In that case, we are back at having Christ "cut off" TWICE -- 3 1/2 years apart !!

I have heard some people claim Christ was cut off IN THE MIDST OF THE WEEK
but Daniel doesn't SAY THAT -- says Messiah was CUT OFF after 7 + 62 weeks
 
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#17
In that case, we are back at having Christ "cut off" TWICE -- 3 1/2 years apart !!

I have heard some people claim Christ was cut off IN THE MIDST OF THE WEEK
but Daniel doesn't SAY THAT -- says Messiah was CUT OFF after 7 + 62 weeks
Yes, I guess you could try and make some kind of argument about being cut off AFTER 69 weeks and again 3.5 years later, but then I would ask if you are then changing the meaning of the word AFTER. Does AFTER mean at the end of? Or does AFTER imply some time beyond the end of the 69th week. Does the midst of the 70th week come AFTER the end of the 69th week?
 

reba

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#18
God made the weeks God know what comes after 69 the Cross of Christ and his body are not plan "B" in my thoughts
 

Anto9us

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#19
The KJV translates Strong's H310 in the following manner: after (454x), follow (78x), afterward(s) (46x), behind (44x), miscellaneous (87x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. after the following part, behind (of place), hinder, afterwards (of time)
    1. as an adverb
      1. behind (of place)

      2. afterwards (of time)
      • as a preposition
        1. behind, after (of place)

        2. after (of time)

        3. besides
      • as a conjunction
        1. after that
      • as a substantive
        1. hinder part
      • with other prepositions
        1. from behind

        2. from following after
 
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#20
"If we agree that Daniel 9:27 refers to the 70th week, then who is it that shall confirm a covenant with many? What covenant is confirmed?"

Grammatically, the "He' in 'he shall confirm' would be the PRINCE of the PEOPLE who came and destroyed city and sanctuary; throwing some substantiation to the idea of a "revived Roman Empire" -- which I have never taken that seriously before...

the covenant -- I guess -- would be with the Jews
If we are to understand the 70th week of Daniel, then we must understand the covenant that was confirmed with many for for one week.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord,
that I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
in the day that I took them by the hand
to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
which my covenant they brake,
although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the Lord,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the Lord: for they shall all know me,
from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord:
for I will forgive their iniquity,
and I will remember their sin no more.

Hebrews 8:8-12
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Matthew 26:26-28
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.