The IMPOSSIBLE THREAD ON partial PRETERISM !!

[Anto9us]

Mat 24:2

And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


Mar 13:2

And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


Luk 21:6

As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

That's in all 3 versions of Olivet Discourse -- if Temple being torn down in 70 AD is NOT what He was addressing -- what is?

 

[Anto9us]

When we are reading Paul's epistles, I think we should keep in mind that these letters themselves were written before 70AD.

For certain.

I think it might be possible that the originals of ALL of the NT books were written before 70 AD.

But are you saying, ezrider, that Hebrews REFERS TO the Temple destruction?

 

[ezrider]

For certain.

I think it might be possible that the originals of ALL of the NT books were written before 70 AD.

But are you saying, ezrider, that Hebrews REFERS TO the Temple destruction?

Not saying it does, but I certainly can not discount it. The temple was something physical that stood in their way, something they felt obligated to.

 

[ezrider]

I think it might be possible that the originals of ALL of the NT books were written before 70 AD.

Are you saying the book of Revelation was written before 70AD as well? I thought most place it around 90AD, but I'm not sure.

 

[Anto9us]

Hebrews talks more about the old TABERNACLE - a shadow of the true in heaven - than it does about a real TEMPLE; so, yeah, maybe it was gone already, and the Old Covenant was on its way out, cuz the New had come

 

[Anto9us]

Revelation is dated by majority of scholars about 95 AD in Domitian's reign.

The minority report, gaining more ground since Kenneth Gentry's book -- is that Revelation was written during Nero's reign -- late sixties
Most but not all Preterists go with that early date; some people who are NOT preterists go with the early date

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/revelation-written-in-neros-reign.7987998/

The majority view on the death of Antipas the faithful witness in Revelation, is that he was martyred in 92 AD, but again, there are those traditions also that say Antipas was martyred in Nero's reign

It strikes me as odd that a NT writer would write his book AFTER 70 AD and NOT mention the Temple destruction outright, not mention what is to me the most glaring, literally fulfilled prophecy of Jesus

 

[ezrider]

It strikes me as odd that a NT writer would write his book AFTER 70 AD and NOT mention the Temple destruction outright, not mention what is to me the most glaring, literally fulfilled prophecy of Jesus

Your point is taken. There was once upon a time that I wondered if John of the book of Revelation wasn't John the Baptist.

I'm done for the night. But before I go I would like to say thank you, this has been a very pleasant conversation.

 

[JLB]

Mat 24:2

And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


Mar 13:2

And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


Luk 21:6

As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

That's in all 3 versions of Olivet Discourse -- if Temple being torn down in 70 AD is NOT what He was addressing -- what is?

Here is when the Olivet Discourse began.

And Jesus answered and said to them: ... Matthew 24:4


This began the Olivet Discourse, which stemmed from a question:

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3


Before this, they were in the temple area, looking at the buildings of the temple.

Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” Matthew 24:1-2


Matthew 24;1-2 does not take place on the Mount of Olives, and is not considered the "Olivet Discourse", which is Jesus answering a question, that His disciples asked.


The Olivet Discourse is describing the coming of the Lord, which is the Day of the Lord, and the specific time markers that are described come from Zechariah.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
Zechariah 14:1-7


Again, the events of 70 AD are not mentioned in the Olivet Discourse.


Preterism is built upon a gross misunderstanding of scripture. Jesus was referring to Zechariah and the army that will be surrounding Jerusalem at the time when the Lord returns with His saints from heaven, and the resurrection/rapture, and not the events of 70 AD.



JLB

 

[Anto9us]

Mat 24:1
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Mat 24:2
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


The statement in 24:2 is the whole REASON for the Olivet Discourse, that the statement was made BEFORE Jesus was actually on the Mount of Olives is irrelevant. There would have been no such 'discourse' had not Jesus said what He did about the Temple being torn down.

In Luke's version of 'the discourse' -- it is not even mentioned that it took place on Mount of Olives, yet the same things are said as in Mark and Matthew. All three accounts indicate to me that all things would be fulfilled in the generation Jesus was in:


Mat 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


Mar 13:30
Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luk 21:32
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.



The "gross misunderstanding", as I see it, is the refusal to heed, and the negation of -- what Jesus had told the Samaritan woman:


Jhn 4:19
The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

Jhn 4:20
Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

Jhn 4:21
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

Jhn 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Jhn 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Jhn 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


So my eschatology does not focus on PHYSICAL MOUNTAINS OR A PHYSICAL TEMPLE (which does not even exist - a muslim Dome of the Rock sits on Temple Mount now, I do not look for the mosque to be torn down, a temple rebuilt, a Red Heifer found, and all of that, sheesh!) -- in fact, the re-establishment of animal sacrifices would seem to me a great sacrilege after Christ's perfect and final sacrifice.

As far as Old Testament prophecies, there is such a thing as "conditional fulfillment/non-fulfillment".
The greatest example is Jonah -- who prophesied the Lord would destroy Nineveh -- and Jonah was actually mad at God when it didn't happen! But a higher purpose was served, the Ninevites repented:

Mat 12:41
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

I don't want to have GOGGED when I should have MAGOGGED, but how much of Ezekiel 38-39 and Zechariah 14 are conditional, I don't know -- or any other Old Testament prophet.

My future focus is away from MOUNTAINS and JERUSALEM because of what Jesus told the Samaritan woman:
He is THE PROPHET, and said
"neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father."

 

[JLB]

The statement in 24:2 is the whole REASON for the Olivet Discourse, that the statement was made BEFORE Jesus was actually on the Mount of Olives is irrelevant. There would have been no such 'discourse' had not Jesus said what He did about the Temple being torn down.

The question was asked by the Disciples when Jesus sat down on the mount of Olives.

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”


Where in verse 1 or 2, which take place in the Temple area, is the sign of His coming and the end of the age mentioned?


The Olivet Discourse is describing the coming of the Lord, which is the Day of the Lord, and the specific time markers that are described come from Zechariah.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
Zechariah 14:1-7


Can you point out the events of 70 AD in Zechariah 14?

• Zechariah 14 describes the Day of the Lord.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. Zechariah 14:1

• Zechariah 14 describes all the nations surrounding Jerusalem. Not just Rome.

For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zechariah 14:2

• Zechariah 14 refers to when the Lord Himself will fight against the surrounding armies.

Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
Zechariah 14:3


Did the Lord fight against the Roman army, and defeat them in 70 AD, or did the commander Titus of the Roman army return to Rome as a conquering hero in which he eventually became Emperor?


Preterism is built upon a gross misunderstanding of scripture. Jesus was referring to Zechariah and the army that will be surrounding Jerusalem at the time when the Lord returns with His saints from heaven, and the resurrection/rapture, and not the events of 70 AD.




JLB

 

[Anto9us]

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”


Where in verse 1 or 2, which take place in the Temple area, is the sign of His coming and the end of the age mentioned?

It was the disciples that HOOKED ON two additional questions to the Temple destruction when they asked Him about it.

That Zechariah 14 does not mention events of 70 AD does not negate that Jesus DOES mention Temple destruction in 70 AD -- His comments about Temple destruction caused the disciples to ask their questions -- THEY threw in 'Parousia' and 'end of the age'; Jesus had just said "won't be one stone left upon another"

 

[JLB]

That Zechariah 14 does not mention events of 70 AD does not negate that Jesus DOES mention Temple destruction in 70 AD

Well I'm glad to hear you admit this, as some Preterist's attempt to convince that Zechariah refers to the events of 70 AD.

Jesus had just said "won't be one stone left upon another"

Yes brother, Jesus did mention this, and we agree Jesus said ...not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”


However, my point is Jesus mentioned this while in the Temple area, and not in His Olivet Discourse.


The Olivet Discourse is about His coming and the end of the age, not the events of 70 AD, which were mentioned in the Temple area.

Here read for yourself, the language Jesus uses about His coming, and not the events of 70 AD, in which the city and sanctuary were destroyed.

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. Matthew 24:4-6


Jesus teaches us that there will come those cliaming to be Him, but to not be deceived by this false claim, and that their will be wars and rumors of wars, but the end is not yet.

False Christ's coming claiming to be the Christ, and the end is not yet, is language and context that points to what the disciples asked...
what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”


No references to the destruction of the city and sanctuary.

Only discussing the context and topic of "His coming" and "the end of the age".

Zechariah 14 is also discussing these things.


Look at the similar language.

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

This is a one time event, and refers to what Jesus taught us in the Olivet Discourse, about His Coming and the saints with Him.

26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:26-27

Jesus will come from Heaven with His saints, to gather His people at the Resurrection/Rapture, at the end of the age.

This is what He taught us in Zechariah 14, and what He taught us in the Olivet discourse.


Preterism is built upon a gross misunderstanding of scripture. Jesus was referring to Zechariah and the army that will be surrounding Jerusalem at the time when the Lord returns with His saints from heaven, and the resurrection/rapture, and not the events of 70 AD.


JLB

 

[reba]

Hebrews talks more about the old TABERNACLE - a shadow of the true in heaven - than it does about a real TEMPLE; so, yeah, maybe it was gone already, and the Old Covenant was on its way out, cuz the New had come

which is the real one ?

 

[Anto9us]

I meant the actual Temple as THE REAL PHYSICAL ONE -- the one Jesus said would be torn down, the one where He tossed tables around and drove out money-changers with a whip, aka "the Second Temple", the one whose veil was rent when Jesus was crucified

If Hebrews was written before 70 AD -- that Temple still stood, if Hebrews was written later -- that Temple was gone

But Hebrews contrasts the TABERNACLE that had been used on earth with a TRUE TABERNACLE in heaven -- so I guess that heavenly tabernacle is a REAL ONE also

 

[Anto9us]

THIS Temple --

Mat 24:2
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

And because of His statement, the disciples asked "when shall these things be?"
and that led to the Olivet discourse

 

[Anto9us]

Disciples thought the destruction of THAT TEMPLE -- and Parousia - and "end of the age" had to be all at the same time.

They were wrong.

 

[Anto9us]

Jesus goes on to explain that there will be a FLEEING -- which also DID INDEED HAPPEN - when Christians left the city and fled to Pella

 

[Anto9us]

Mat 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Mat 24:16
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mat 24:17
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Mat 24:18
Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Mat 24:19
And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Mat 24:20
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Look, whether or not there will be a still future abomination of desolation, that's not what is being talked about here; Roman legions carrying their standards into the holy place was a sign to THIS GENERATION -- and flee Jerusalem the followers of Christ did

 

[ezrider]

Isaiah 42:5-10
Thus saith God the Lord,
he that created the heavens, and stretched them out;
he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it;
he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
I the Lord have called thee in righteousness,
and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee,
and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
To open the blind eyes,
to bring out the prisoners from the prison,
and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
I am the Lord: that is my name:
and my glory will I not give to another,
neither my praise to graven images.
Behold, the former things are come to pass,
and new things do I declare:
before they spring forth I tell you of them.
Sing unto the Lord a new song,
and his praise from the end of the earth,
ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein;
the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.

 

[Anto9us]

Mat 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Why is there such an ABSOLUTE REFUSAL not to believe Jesus when He talks about THIS GENERATION??!!!???

It's in Luke, it's in Matthew, it's in MARK !!!