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The IMPOSSIBLE THREAD ON partial PRETERISM !!

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Daniel refers to the events of 70 AD.

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:26


Jesus refers to Daniel in the Olivet Discourse, and directs the reader to understand.
Yes, Jesus refers to Daniel in the Olivet Discourse, and indeed he directs the reader to understand. BUT, when Jesus referred to Daniel in the Olivet Discourse, He WAS NOT referencing Dan 9:27 and the destruction of the city and the sanctuary. He referenced that while still upon the temple mound.

No. In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus refers to the abomination that makes desolated. That references something completely different from the book of Daniel.

Matthew 24:13-15
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Daniel 12:10-12
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Like you keep saying JLB. Jesus did NOT mention the destruction of the temple in the Olivet Discourse. What He talked about on the Mt of Olives was the abomination that makes desolate. The abomination that makes desolate IS NOT the destruction of the temple.
 

JLB

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No. In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus refers to the abomination that makes desolated. That references something completely different from the book of Daniel.
The AOD was indeed referred to in Daniel and is associated with the 70th and the time of the end.


9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.” Daniel 12:9-13

And again

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:26-27


JLB
 
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So, we are in agreement that the abomination that makes desolate referenced by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse from Daniel 12:11-12 is NOT the temple destruction.

When did the daily sacrifice end? or rather when was it taken away?
 

Anto9us

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You and JLB seem to be in agreement on it, ezrider, I maintain that Jesus references the Abomination of Desolation in the Great Eschatological Discourse, that He refers to it in a way that it will be like what Daniel referred to/prophesied about -- when Antiochus IV Epiphanes slew a pig on the altar and other abominations -- that the Abomination in 70 AD was the Roman banners in the Temple and their desecration of it

No sense in Jesus tellin people to look for a PAST AoD - another one was comin'

As far as I'm concerned, there was an Abomination of Desolation at the time of Antiochus Epiphanes; there was one IN JESUS' GENERATION that caused Christians to flee to Pella (as per the warning in His discourse); and there may yet be a future AoD

And furthermore, after recent study, I don't see Zechariah 14 as even remotely possible for reference in the Discourse. IN Zechariah's day -- as in the Day of any Old Testament prophet -- "anthropomorphizing God" ( talking about breath from his nostrils, baring his holy arm, feet, mouth, etc) were all GOOD AND WELL KNOWN TO BE METAPHORICAL, not literal.

I now see it as a GROSS MISUNDERSTANDING that the actual feet of the glorified body of Christ are what hits the deck in Zechariah 14. Old Testament prophets anticipated a Messiah -- but did not see him as GOD INCARNATE.

This insight came to me from recent study and another thread elsewhere about looking at OT prophecies from the vantage point of the prophet and his audience at that time.

The focus for me will never again be on physical places and physical mountains; the time has past come, as Jesus said to the woman at the well in Samaria, that "neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem" is worship to be done

God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship in Spirit and in Truth.

I see Zechariah 14 and Ezekiel 38-39 as pure apocalyptic literature; sheer metaphorical that Zechariah would describe the FEET OF THE LORD; it would have been blasphemous for Zechariah to LITERALLY believe God had feet like a man.

So, no, I don't agree that the AoD is not referenced in the Discourse, I don't agree that Zech 14 is referenced in anyway in the Discourse, it's totally inappropriate to plug the feet of the risen Christ into an Old Testament prophet's anthropomorhicological metaphor.

I believed it for decades, but I am done with this

"This mountain, this earthly Jerusalem"

type of eschatology

MY focus is off of physical cities and physical mountains
 
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You and JLB seem to be in agreement on it, ezrider, I maintain that Jesus references the Abomination of Desolation in the Great Eschatological Discourse, that He refers to it in a way that it will like what Daniel referred to when Antiochus IV Epiphanes slew a pig on the altar and other abominations -- that the Abomination in 70 AD was the Roman banners in the Temple and their desecration of it
Yes, and No. I am playing along with JLB. Since he can't seem to get beyond this hidden wall that exists for him between the words spoke in the temple and those spoke on the mount, then I'm just trying to meet him where he is at. If he wants to make a distinction between these to places, there is nothing I or anyone else can say that would convince him otherwise.

But, since JLB makes a distinction based upon where those words were spoken, then I am only pointing out that he can't continue to claim that preterist point to the destruction of the temple based upon the words that were spoken on the mount. If JLB can't get past this division, then his only objection can be to the abomination of desolation.

I think the only thing he actually agrees with is that the abomination of desolation and the destruction of the temple are two different events. Would you agree with that?
 

Anto9us

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First off -- I think there is definitely MORE THAN ONE "Abomination of Desolation", just like in 1 John "even now there are many antichrists"; pig on the altar in about 167 BC, and Romans desecrating Temple in 70 AD, thing is, in 70 AD the desecration/desolation -- and the DESTRUCTION -- are "part of the same opera"; like the Overture and the main body of the Opera...

There had already BEEN an AoD when Jesus refers to it from Daniel; there would be another (second) AoD when Jesus told people to run (which happened) and there may be a third AoD yet to come

In the second AoD -- it is like the first pitch of the ball game and the Temple Destruction is the rest of the game
 

Anto9us

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How could he reference it in the discourse when it WAS the Discourse.
I don't understand what you're saying that "it WAS the Discourse"

You know how Matthew of all the gospel writers WENT OUT OF HIS WAY to reference OT prophets that had anything to do with deeds, words, etc of Jesus

"and this was done that it might be fulfilled as was said by ______ the prophet"
"This He said that it might fulfill that which was spoken of by _______ the prophet"

That's a motif in Matthew.

Here in our DISCOURSE - Daniel is mentioned - no mention of Zechariah.

Cuz Jesus was not talking about Zechariah 14
 
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I don't understand what you're saying that "it WAS the Discourse"
When Jesus was speaking, did his feet not stand upon the mount of Olives? What did the prophet say? What did Jesus say?

The sermon on the mount in Matthew 5-7. Do you know where that was foretold by the prophets?
 
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"and this was done that it might be fulfilled as was said by ______ the prophet"
"This He said that it might fulfill that which was spoken of by _______ the prophet"
That it might be fulfilled..... These were so that they might bare witness of the MAN Jesus. But the work of the SPIRIT is not so readily called out.
 

Anto9us

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When Jesus was speaking, did his feet not stand upon the mount of Olives?
Mat 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
 
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Acts 4:24-28
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
 
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Mat 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Are we that worried or critical over semantics?
 

Anto9us

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No, not worried. It's just that the precise imagery of "stand with his feet on the mt of olives" led to a major breakthrough for me;

I realized that, to Zechariah

1. God did not physically have feet
2. The Messiah he was expecting was not conceived as "God Incarnate"

and therefore it is unsound theology to say "the bible says JESUS' feet will crack the Mt of Olives in two"
 

Anto9us

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If it was really JESUS' feet hitting the mt of Olives in Zechariah 14 -- why would His people need to "flee" anywhere?

When Jesus comes back -- Game Over.

His people meet him in the air, dead in Christ have already risen just before and are with Him -- no need for His people at that time to FLEE from humans when Christ is back on earth -- makes no sense...

That is why I am saying that the metaphor in Zech 14 is not about Jesus' feet hitting the earth -- it is just NOT ABOUT THAT.

IF He said for His people to run (WHICH hE DID IN THE dISCOURSE) -- it means BY NECESSITY that the game is NOT over -- it matches Christians needing to flee to Pella cuz Jerusalem is under siege -- they did, that is what happened, sometime 66-70 AD

But it's a pretty WEAK VIEW of Jesus' return to this planet if it's a deal like

"Hey -- I'm back -- now ya gotta RUN from human enemies", like, is it gonna TAKE HIM AWHILE TO DEFEAT ALL THE ENEMIES AND GET hIS OWN PEOPLE SAFE? tHAT'S CRAZY.
 

Anto9us

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1Co 15:49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1Co 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1Co 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


wELL, NO NEED TO SCRAMBLE OFF INTO A VALLEY MADE BY THE SPLITTING OF THE mOUNT OF oLIVES in this scenario
 
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No, not worried. It's just that the precise imagery of "stand with his feet on the mt of olives" led to a major breakthrough for me;

I realized that, to Zechariah

1. God did not physically have feet
2. The Messiah he was expecting was not conceived as "God Incarnate"

and therefore it is unsound theology to say "the bible says JESUS' feet will crack the Mt of Olives in two"
When the prophet said that he would stand upon the Mt of Olives, and it cleave in the midst to the east and to the west, and a great valley in between. And half the mountain shall remove to the north, and the other half to the south. I see the half mountain that removed north as being Mt Zion, and the other half the mountain that moved south as Mt Sinai. Metaphorically speaking, for the people wander about in the valley, some called to the mountain that lies south, and others to the mountain in the north. Some bind themselves to the law, while others trust in Grace. Paul speaks of these two mountains, as he speaks of the two Jerusalem's in the book of Galatians.
 
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First off -- I think there is definitely MORE THAN ONE "Abomination of Desolation", just like in 1 John "even now there are many antichrists"; pig on the altar in about 167 BC, and Romans desecrating Temple in 70 AD, thing is, in 70 AD the desecration/desolation -- and the DESTRUCTION -- are "part of the same opera"; like the Overture and the main body of the Opera...

There had already BEEN an AoD when Jesus refers to it from Daniel; there would be another (second) AoD when Jesus told people to run (which happened) and there may be a third AoD yet to come

In the second AoD -- it is like the first pitch of the ball game and the Temple Destruction is the rest of the game

These may all be considered an abomination. And if so, then NONE of them makes it desolate. But there is ONE abomination that brings desolation, or makes it desolate. And a closer look of the "Desolate" may be required, because the desolate are those without a husband. Claiming they are a queen and no widow.

When this occurs Daniel says there shall be 1290 days from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away; blessed is he who comes to the 1335 day, or 45 day later than day 1290. Does the 1290 days represent 3 1/2 years? (I'm not a Hebrew Calendar wiz).

When was the daily sacrifice taken away?
 

Anto9us

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Yes, Paul did speak of "the Jerusalem that is above" and "a heavenly Mt Zion", so your view makes sense.