The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

Discussion in 'Theology' started by PeterJens, Oct 31, 2017.

  1. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Can you provide scripture for this?

    The scripture I quoted refers to those who take the mark of the beast, and their fate.

    9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

    12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12


    • And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

    Those who take the mark of the beast will be punished in the lake of fire, and the smoke of their torment will ascend forever, in which they will have no rest day or night.

    Obviously these do not cease to exist.



    JLB
     
  2. Papyrus_dust

    Papyrus_dust Member

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    But the condemned who died there shall be for all time. The earthly punishment examples for limited human consciousness what is foretold as the eternal out of body punishment after this life.
    We can't comprehend what is outside of this body. So the parable, metaphor, analogies, in scriptures, the story telling on a level of comprehension for the human experience is to suffice as warning of what is actually unfathomable outside this flesh.
    For instance, eternal salvation with our Lord. Have you ever seen a bar of gold in person? Can you then imagine walking on streets of gold in Heaven? Seems odd that an ore mined here would pave the streets in a ethereal paradise where souls reside doesn't it? But if you've ever seen actual gold then you get the visual in your imagining as to what a street of gold would appear like in Heaven.
     
  3. Papyrus_dust

    Papyrus_dust Member

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    From whence does the soul in humanity spring?
     
  4. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    Sure. None of God's children will experience the lake of fire. Because Jesus promised that all recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. Jn 10:28

    I definitely believe what Jesus said.

    Apparently the only problem is your misunderstanding of who God's children actually are.

    As I pointed out earlier, only believers are the children of God. John 1:12 and Gal 3:26

    Those who have put their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation will never perish.

    I believe your comment about "ones who didn't overcome" is misapplied. Only unbelievers will be tormented forever and ever. No believers will.

    Second, once we enter eternity, and we are promised to "know even as we are known" (Gal 4:9), we will fully understand all the details about why unbelievers were cast into the lake of fire. And, since we'll no longer have our corrupted sinful human natures, it won't be a problem at all.

    One is free to charge God with whatever they want to.

    Where are your so-called facts?

    Do you understand what "smoke of their torment rises forever and ever" means?

    If one ceases to exist, how can they be tormented forever and ever? It isn't possible.
     
  5. n2thelight

    n2thelight Member

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    Why would a loving God torture some one forever?Like I said, I know for a fact my Father won't!!!

    We we sons of God at creation,or did some come from somewhere else?????
     
  6. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    Why would anyone question God's plan? The Bible is clear about the "smoke of their torment rising forever and ever". Accept it.

    The short answer is that God is just as much perfect justice as He is perfect love. Let's not try to "prioritize" His attributes, as if some of them trump others. They are all co-equal.

    The bottom line for mankind is that no one has any excuse.

    Rom 1:20 - For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

    Those who will suffer for eternity didn't have to. They could have recognized God as Creator and been thankful to Him.

    Rom 1:21 - For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

    Why do you continue to sidestep John 1:12 and Gal 3:26 regarding who the "sons of God" we're talking about?
     
  7. chessman

    chessman Member

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    Yes, it's clear.

    Psalm 37:20
    But the wicked will perish, and the enemies of Yahweh will be like the splendor of the pastures. They vanish; in smoke they vanish.
    John 3:16 (LEB) 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.
    The Bible is clear on two points:
    1. that those who believe in His Son (Who is able to destroy both body and soul in Hell) will not perish
    2. that those who are His enemies (are wicked) will perish. In smoke they vanish forever!
     
  8. Randy

    Randy Member

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    The "man" or false prophet who acts in behalf of the beast comes out of the "earth". The "angel" of the abyss comes up from the abyss (sea) currently imprisoned to be released at the appointed time at the sounding of the 5th trump of God. And at the end of the testimony of the 2 witnesses in Rev 11 (a sign that can't be mistaken) Then shall a tribulation begin unequaled from the beginning until that time. 42 months. As those days will be cut short and the beast is not destroyed by human power. Rev 16:15 The bowl judgments are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness and are the last judgments of God for with them Gods wrath is complete. At the sounding of the last trump (7th) the kingdom of the world shall become the kingdom of God and of His christ.
     
  9. Randy

    Randy Member

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    Even "if" God has the ability to destroy spirit it doesn't appear that He does so as no rest night and day and tormented suggest awareness of suffering. (everlasting)
     
  10. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    I said:
    "The Bible is clear about the "smoke of their torment rising forever and ever". Accept it."

    Is if fair to equate 2 verses from totally different contexts? I think not. The Psa verse is clearly about physical death.


    Spirital life vs spiritual death is the comparison here. Having eternal life is having spiritual life. Perishing here is compared to spiritual death, or the "second death", which is where the torment of residents rises forever and ever.


    Again, 2 different contexts, totally. No comparison.
     
  11. chessman

    chessman Member

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    They both speak of the wicked perishing. Did you not say "the Bible" is clear, meaning the entire context of the Bible and what it has to say about the wicked's final punishment????

    Actually, it's about The protection of the Righteous and the Destruction of the Wicked "Forever". Oh, and Who to fear and who not to fear (who to trust) as the wicked prospers "for a while" on Earth. You know, like the same context as is in Matt 10:28.

    Psalm 37Lexham English Bible (LEB)
    The Protection of the Righteous and the Destruction of the Wicked
    Of David.
    Do not fret because of evildoers;
    do not be envious of doers of wickedness.
    2 For like the grass they will dry up quickly,
    and like green vegetation they will wither.
    3 Trust Yahweh and do good.


    Psalm 37:28Lexham English Bible (LEB)

    28 For Yahweh loves justice
    and will not forsake his faithful ones.
    They are protected forever
    .
    But the children of the wicked will be cut off
    How come it doesn't say spiritual life vs spiritual death then?

    Would you say experiencing eternal life is living forever?
    Would you say experiencing destruction/death is living forever?
     
  12. FreeGrace

    FreeGrace Member

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    My point was that the 2 verses are not in the same context. One is clearly about physical death.

    The wicked's final punishment is clearly stated in Rev 20:10-15. The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever.

    Please explain (because none has yet been provied) how one who has ceased to exist can be tormented forever and ever.

    Yes. With God.

    No, I would not, because the Bible doesn't use those words. It does say "the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever". And we know where that will be; the lake of fire, or second death.

    So, no, it's NOT "living". It IS existing, however, which it seems you're unwilling to consider.

    Existing separated from God in the lake of fire is spiritual death, and such existence will be forever and ever.

    [edited, staff]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 8, 2017
  13. brujaq

    brujaq Member

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    I agree and eternity in hell is much worse than ceasing to exist .. The torment is lifelessness out of the presence of the one who gives life ..
    No more flesh to gratify and no presence of God or ability for repentance, no understanding of a need for repentance and lost forever .. Like Satan has no desire for God will be the essence of those cast into hell .. ''Abandon hope all ye who enter''
     
  14. th1b.taylor

    th1b.taylor Member

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    AMEN!
     
  15. Papyrus_dust

    Papyrus_dust Member

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    I admit a bit of confusion here so forgive me my inquiry. Is there a new teaching wherein the scriptures known for so long to so many are now subject to revision ? Is it a new age denomination that teaches this or something?

    When did eternal damnation garner an edit? When did Hell become other than what the scriptures of old and new have always said of it?
    Why does one eternally saved in Christ and destined for Heaven argue that the suffering reported by God himself in his own words isn't what it says there in matters of the lost, those who die in their sin and that second death? Why would there be an argument amounting to any particulars in the Gospel truth that the Bible doesn't really mean what it says, in this regard?


    Those in Christ are saved for eternity and destined for Heaven. Those who die in their sin having refused the free gift of God's grace and eternal life in his son, suffer in the fire of Hell and damnation. Why would we mitigate that fact by hoping to deliver the message in some form or fashion of our own creation using scripture that isn't really valid in this regard, so as to tell those poor unfortunate people who still have a chance to be saved, if you go to Hell don't worry. It isn't that bad.
     
  16. Papyrus_dust

    Papyrus_dust Member

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    Honestly, this site should be titled, What Sinners Need To Know. And that is, dying the second death, dying in sin, garners eternal suffering in Hell.

    What Christians Want To Know
    Is Hell Really Eternal? Does The Bible Say?
    Is hell real or just a metaphor? Is it eternal and without end as the Scriptures seem to indicate? What does the Bible say about whether hell is eternal or not?
    _______________​

    New Testament Hells – Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna
    Much more at the link above.
     
  17. th1b.taylor

    th1b.taylor Member

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    Brother,
    As Freegrace is trying to explain to you, the context of each and every passage or verse in scripture is critical. On top of it being of absolute importance to remember the context, it is imperative we remember that no Scripture, passage of Scripture nor any Collection of Scripture can,ever, be understood without the light of ALL scripture shinning on it/them.

    And this must be understood that it is coupled with the understanding that Jesus inspired every word of the New and the Old Testaments were written under the inspiration of Jesus, the Eternal Son of God. (John 1:1-5)

    God, the creator, being Jesus, has had a single purpose, to fellowship with human beings that love Him as much as He loves us.

    People have a hard time wrapping their heads around truth that they cannot touch and the very idea of a dimension that we cannot touch, see nor touch is Comic Book stuff to the Non-Believer, many of them, inside a Country Club called The Church.

    (John 1:1-3 [YLT])
    [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; [2] this one was in the beginning with God; [3] all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.

    So it is that the Scriptures, from "In the beginning..." through the very last word of Rev. 22 is of one purpose and of a single context.

    Many voice opposition to this and all I can tell them is to spend twenty-five or more years of prayerfully eating the Word of God and He, being faithful, will show the truth to you that I have chosen to stand on, eternally.
     
  18. th1b.taylor

    th1b.taylor Member

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    A sad state of affairs, isn't it. And it was once great to be known as a New Testament Christian but then, it appears, along came the New Covenant Christian that denied the very foundation the New Testament is built on, The Bible Jesus, John. James and Paul taught from and all Hell broke out inside the Sacred Church. And thus the Building of Meeting became The Church, displacing the Church Jesus will rapture out of here.

    The Church was steadily indoctrinated to rape the Holy Scriptures, literally ripping them from their context and reassembling them in an order that will proof-read your point as a new fact.
     
  19. Papyrus_dust

    Papyrus_dust Member

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    It is sad. Very.
    Does that abominable new thing that came about after Hell broke out have a name? A denominational identity perhaps?
     
  20. Papyrus_dust

    Papyrus_dust Member

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