The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[FreeGrace]

I have addressed your two things at least twice already. No Scripture says that non-Eternal life possessors either live forever or experience torment forever. So your questions assumes facts not in evidence.

It is your view that makes assumptions.

On the otherhand, I have presented Biblical evidences that they are destroyed forever after the GWTJ, both body and soul in Hell.

Not literally. And your explanation of the smoke from S&G "rising foreverf" isn't credible. Where do you see that particular smoke?

In the case of angels, they will SEE the smoke rising forever. No comparison. Only assumptions.

Can you explain how someone who does NOT possess eternal life, lives forever?

They aren't living. They are existing in what is called the "second death". Pretty simple, really.

 

[godsquadgeek]

this guy is a doctor and he has dozens of near death experiences saying their was fire, smoke and heat.

 

[chessman]

I said: I have presented Biblical evidences that they are destroyed forever after the GWTJ, both body and soul in Hell.

You replied:

Not literally.

I will present the evidence again:

since it will be a righteous thing with God to repay affliction to the ones afflicting you and to give you, the ones being afflicted, rest along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with angels of His power in flaming fire, giving punishment to the ones not knowing God and the ones not obeying the good-news of our Lord Jesus— who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength,2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:6-9&version=DLNT

Destruction and misery are in their ways.Romans 3:16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 3:16&version=DLNT

Enter through the narrow gate, because wide is the gate and broad is the road leading-away to destruction— and many are the ones entering through it.Matthew 7:13 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 7:13&version=DLNT

It makes absolutely no sense for their to be a road that leads to destruction, yet there not literally be destruction at it’s end. So, destruction of what??? Both body and soul, body only, soul only, or neither???

If we understand that Jesus is the narrow gate and also the judge of all who has entered through Him (or not) and WILL one day judge all mankind as either have entered in through Him (or not) and WILL cast into Hell all mankind judged as not entering through but rather on the road leading to destruction, then we are SHOWN their destruction:

But I will show you Whom you should fear— fear the One having the authority to throw into Gehenna after the killing. Yes, I say to you, fear this One.​

Luke 12:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:5&version=DLNT

And do not be fearing anything from the ones killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. But be fearing instead the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=DLNT

The evidence is, Jesus WILL SHOW that to throw a lost human into Gehenna is to destroy both soul and body.

​

And your explanation of the smoke from S&G "rising foreverf" isn't credible. Where do you see that particular smoke?

The Lord knows the days of the blameless, And their inheritance will be forever. ...
But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the Lord will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish— like smoke they vanish away.​

Psalm 37:18,20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 37:18,20&version=NASB

What makes you think the smoke from S&G’s destruction must be seen for it to still be rising forever? Isn’t it enough credibility that Scripture says it’s so? It is for me.

And why so much fixation on smoke anyway? We know from Peter and Jude and Jesus and S&G’s destruction and Psalm 37 and many other passages what smoke rising means. It’s an example of destruction.

 

[godsquadgeek]

I said: I have presented Biblical evidences that they are destroyed forever after the GWTJ, both body and soul in Hell.

You replied:

I will present the evidence again:






It makes absolutely no sense for their to be a road that leads to destruction, yet there not literally be destruction at it’s end. So, destruction of what??? Both body and soul, body only, soul only, or neither???

If we understand that Jesus is the narrow gate and also the judge of all who has entered through Him (or not) and WILL one day judge all mankind as either have entered in through Him (or not) and WILL cast into Hell all mankind judged as not entering through but rather on the road leading to destruction, then we are SHOWN their destruction:

But I will show you Whom you should fear— fear the One having the authority to throw into Gehenna after the killing. Yes, I say to you, fear this One.​

Luke 12:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:5&version=DLNT

And do not be fearing anything from the ones killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. But be fearing instead the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=DLNT

The evidence is, Jesus WILL SHOW that to throw a lost human into Gehenna is to destroy both soul and body.

​

The Lord knows the days of the blameless, And their inheritance will be forever. ...
But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the Lord will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish— like smoke they vanish away.​

Psalm 37:18,20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 37:18,20&version=NASB

What makes you think the smoke from S&G’s destruction must be seen for it to still be rising forever? Isn’t it enough credibility that Scripture says it’s so? It is for me.

And why so much fixation on smoke anyway? We know from Peter and Jude and Jesus and S&G’s destruction and Psalm 37 and many other passages what smoke rising means. It’s an example of destruction.

Satan in revelation is thrown in the lake of fire for a thousand years and let loose.

 

[chessman]

Satan in revelation is thrown in the lake of fire for a thousand years and let loose.

Correct. And Satan is not a human being, but rather a fallen angel that cannot die.

Lost humans, on the otherhand, in The Revelation of Christ throughout the Bible are shown to be judged as being outside of Christ and are therefore eventually (at the end of the road that leads to destruction) thrown into the Lake of Fire and experience a second death. One more fearful than the first death because it will be shown to destroy both body and soul, forever. Eternal destruction!

 

[godsquadgeek]

Correct. And Satan is not a human being, but rather a fallen angel that cannot die.

Lost humans, on the otherhand, in The Revelation of Christ throughout the Bible are shown to be judged as being outside of Christ and are therefore eventually (at the end of the road that leads to destruction) thrown into the Lake of Fire and experience a second death. One more fearful than the first death because it will be shown to destroy both body and soul, forever. Eternal destruction!

So if the same hell destroys both Satan and humans souls (which are eternal due to being outside time and space) how can hell annihilate a human soul?

 

[chessman]

So if the same hell destroys both Satan and humans souls

Who says Hell destroys Satan?
Not me.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Who says Hell destroys Satan?
Not me.

Why would it be a punishment if not destroyed perpetually? If Satan not destroyed due to being immaterial, why not the immaterial soul also endure hell likewise?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said: I have presented Biblical evidences that they are destroyed forever after the GWTJ, both body and soul in Hell.

I will present the evidence again:
"since it will be a righteous thing with God to repay affliction to the ones afflicting you and to give you, the ones being afflicted, rest along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with angels of His power in flaming fire, giving punishment to the ones not knowing God and the ones not obeying the good-news of our Lord Jesus— who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength,2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:6-9&version=DLNT"

OK, let's understand what "eternal destruction" means. It certainly doesn't mean some amount of time in being destroyed, and then ceasing to exist.

Once something no longer exists, there can be no punishment.

For punishment to be eternal, it must continue and be experienced.

If one is in a coma, can they be punished? It would be a waste of time.

It makes absolutely no sense for their to be a road that leads to destruction, yet there not literally be destruction at it’s end.

There will be literal destruction; ceasing to live. But not ceasing to exist.

So, destruction of what??? Both body and soul, body only, soul only, or neither???

Life. Existence in the lake of fire cannot be, in any sense of the word, be described as living.

Instead of residents saying, "I'm living in the lake of fire", they'll have to say, "I'm dying in the lake of fire." Which will be the case for eternity.

​

What makes you think the smoke from S&G’s destruction must be seen for it to still be rising forever?

That's pretty much how one is able to tell that smoke is rising. To actually see it.

Isn’t it enough credibility that Scripture says it’s so? It is for me.

I don't think the smoke from Rev 20:10 will be figurative, but the smoke from S&G cannot be literal.

And why so much fixation on smoke anyway?

I'm not. Why are you?

We know from Peter and Jude and Jesus and S&G’s destruction and Psalm 37 and many other passages what smoke rising means. It’s an example of destruction.

And the life of everyone cast into the lake of fire will be destroyed. But they will continue to exist, in a state of eternal death.

Why should this be so hard to understand or accept?

 

[FreeGrace]

Satan in revelation is thrown in the lake of fire for a thousand years and let loose.

Please review Rev 20. But here are some relevant verses:
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The abyss is not the lake of fire. satan will be locked in the abyss for the Millennial reign of Christ on earth. Then he will be let free for a short time, and then cast into the lake of fire for eternity.

 

[FreeGrace]

godsquadgeek said: ↑
Satan in revelation is thrown in the lake of fire for a thousand years and let loose.

Correct.

Incorrect. See post #410.

 

[brujaq]

Matthew 18:8

 

[godsquadgeek]

The abyss is linked

Please review Rev 20. But here are some relevant verses:
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The abyss is not the lake of fire. satan will be locked in the abyss for the Millennial reign of Christ on earth. Then he will be let free for a short time, and then cast into the lake of fire for eternity.

The abyss is still part of Hell, there are three or more sections to hell.
classic dispensationals at the turn of the century mapped it out, and linked the three below. (original by clarence larkin)

notice how there is fire linking the three, and again I am not sure this is accurate, but I have not seen another the is comparably better, unless you wish to give a shot at it.

I tend to believe they are three compartments of the same place. Joe went to the slammer, Fred went to prison, and Mark was locked up. But they all went to the same place. Just different words. They are all Hell, it's just that one lake of fire, is the permanent resting place of the wicked dead.

imagine being on temporary state disability, like the abyss. Then moved to social security disability retirement. The lake of fire. Just one is more permanent. But both under the term disability. All the above can be called Hell, it's just that some are more permanent than others.

 

[godsquadgeek]

godsquadgeek said: ↑
Satan in revelation is thrown in the lake of fire for a thousand years and let loose.

Incorrect. See post #410.

Incorrect. See post #413.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Revelation 20 all of Revelation 20 & different versions​

6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years. 7 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.…

 

[chessman]

Incorrect. See post #410.

A comprehensive study shows otherwise. They are both terms John uses for the same place.

They have a king over them: the angel of the abyss. The name for him in Hebrew is Abaddon. And in Greek he has the name Apollyon.​

Revelation 9:11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 9:11&version=DLNT

In Hebrew and in Greek, the angel of the Abyss (later called Satan from the Hebrew derivation and Devil from the Greek derivation) is the angel of the “destruction”. That’s what Abaddon and Apollyon mean, to Destroy!

http://biblehub.com/greek/623.htm

http://biblehub.com/greek/622.htm

And Jesus uses it in Matt 10:28 of both the body and soul in Hell.

 

[godsquadgeek]

A comprehensive study shows otherwise. They are both terms John uses for the same place.

They have a king over them: the angel of the abyss. The name for him in Hebrew is Abaddon. And in Greek he has the name Apollyon.​

Revelation 9:11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 9:11&version=DLNT

In Hebrew and in Greek, the angel of the Abyss (later called Satan from the Hebrew derivation and Devil from the Greek derivation) is the angel of the “destruction”. That’s what Abaddon and Apollyon mean, to Destroy!

http://biblehub.com/greek/623.htm

http://biblehub.com/greek/622.htm

And Jesus uses it in Matt 10:28 of both the body and soul in Hell.

How do you know the angel of the pit was not a destroyer angel like in other places in revelation?

 

[godsquadgeek]

A comprehensive study shows otherwise. They are both terms John uses for the same place.

They have a king over them: the angel of the abyss. The name for him in Hebrew is Abaddon. And in Greek he has the name Apollyon.​

Revelation 9:11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 9:11&version=DLNT

In Hebrew and in Greek, the angel of the Abyss (later called Satan from the Hebrew derivation and Devil from the Greek derivation) is the angel of the “destruction”. That’s what Abaddon and Apollyon mean, to Destroy!

http://biblehub.com/greek/623.htm

http://biblehub.com/greek/622.htm

And Jesus uses it in Matt 10:28 of both the body and soul in Hell.

How do you know the angel of the pit was not a destroyer angel like in other places in revelation?

 

[FreeGrace]

The abyss is linked

The abyss is still part of Hell, there are three or more sections to hell.

And none are the lake of fire.

I tend to believe they are three compartments of the same place.

I agree with this. But they aren't the lake of fire.

Joe went to the slammer, Fred went to prison, and Mark was locked up. But they all went to the same place.

Not relevant.

Just different words. They are all Hell, it's just that one lake of fire, is the permanent resting place of the wicked dead.

No. Hell or sheol was where every soul sent after death before the resucrrection of Christ. Believers went to Paradise, or Abraham's bosom, unbelievers went to torments, and some fallen angels were locked up in another compartment called 'tartarus' from 2 Pet 2:4.

When Jesus died, He went to sheol, and "preached to the spirits in prison", 1 Pet 3:19. Then He led the believers to heaven, where they remain to this day, awaiting when they will come back to earth with Jesus at the Second Advent.

The unbelievers left in torments are waiting for the Great White Throne Judgment, in Rev 20:11-15. From that judgment, they will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is not torments. Note Scripture: Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.

If "death and Hades (sheol)" are the lake of fire, how can death and hades be cast into death and hades? It doesn't make sense.

Death and hades are different from the lake of fire.

 

[FreeGrace]

Incorrect. See post #413.

Really? You cited Clarence Larkin, while I quoted Scripture directly, supporting my claim that your view was incorrect.

But since you claim that I am incorrect, please address my points in post #410 and explain how they are incorrect.

Making a claim is quite easy. Proving a claim is another thing.

I believe any verse over any human being.