The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[FreeGrace]

I won't do your homework for you. I posted a picture with ten verses on it twice,

Frankly, the picture is a mess. Very small print, having to literally turn on one side, etc. Very difficult to read.

The error in this mess is that "paradise", "hell" and "tartarus" should all be on the same level, as that's when all souls went after death before Christ's resurrection. Along with the imprisoned angels.

I don't see how the picture equates tartarus, the abyss and the lake of fire either. In fact, the picture failed to include any reference for the abyss. In any case, where does the Bible equal these 3 places? It doesn't. That's the problem.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Probably just as many so-called "orthodox scholars" have gotten it wrong. The key is the Holy Spirit, not your so-called orthodox scholars."

This quote seems to assume the absence of the Holy Spirit in the work of orthodox scholars while He is active in Joe on the couch.

I would never assume all scholars are Spirit filled. Spirit indwelt, sure. But not necessarily filled. Big difference.

Pick good scholars.

Oh, that's easy. Right.

They have much to teach us.

Given how much division there is among said scholars, I'd say they have much to lead us astray with their misunderstandings.

How can they teach us when they are in such disagreement?

That's part of the work of a responsible believer. Iron sharpens Iron ( Proverbs 27:17 )

That quote is in regard to one's life. How to live it. Being accountable between self and others.

The responsible believer will put his ego, etc aside and actively seek to be filled with the Spirit every time he reads and studies the Word.

I agree that scholars can be very helpful. But it takes discernment to know which ones are in line with Scripture.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Hard to imagine we're arguing about a place the saints in Christ shall never see, isn't it? Praise God for that. Maybe our passion for this subject can help us evangelize to those who are destined for such a place if they do not find their path and hearken to God's call.

What if both conditions are in scripture and possible for those who die in their sins because scriptures relate as much?
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28 [Can destroy. A teaching I believe that indicates what is possible if hearers of the word do not hearken to Christ , repent, and receive redemption so as to avoid Hell)

Matthew 25:46 Jesus says, “And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal (Greek, " aionion" )life. aionion , in that passage describes torment and life.

Luke 12:5 "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, who after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, Fear him."

2nd Peter Chapter 2 False Prophets and Teachers
Revelation 14:11
Revelation 20:10 “And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever.”

https://bibleask.org/are-both-soul-and-body-destroyed-in-hell/
ARE BOTH SOUL AND BODY DESTROYED IN HELL?

Hello T,

Thank you for contacting BibleAsk.

“Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Matthew 10:28).

The Bible teaches that the soul of a sinner will be destroyed in hell. Many believe that the soul never dies, but God says, “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” (Ezekiel 18:4, 20).

The word “soul” Psuchē (plural, psuchai) is translated 40 times in the NT as “life” or “lives,” clearly with the meaning commonly attributed to the word “life” (Matthew 2:20; 6:25; 16:25; etc.). It is rendered 58 times as “soul” or “souls” (Matthew 10:28; 11:29; 12:18; etc.). In some of these instances it means simply “people” (Acts 7:14; 27:37; 1 Peter 3:20; etc.). In other instances it is translated as, or equivalent to, some personal pronoun ( Matt. 12:18; 2 Cor. 12:15; Ps. 16:10). At times it refers to the emotions (Mark 14:34; Luke 2:35; etc.), to the natural appetites (Rev. 18:14), to the mind (Acts 14:2; Phil. 1:27), or to the heart (Eph. 6:6).

There is nothing in the word psuchē itself that even remotely implies a conscious entity that is able to survive the death of the body and hence be immortal. In no instance of its use in the Bible does psuchē refer to a conscious entity able to exist apart from the body. The Bible knows nothing of a living, conscious soul that, supposedly, survives the body.

So, according to Scripture, the wicked will be destroyed in hell fire–both soul and body.

In His service,

BibleAsk Team

 

[FreeGrace]

ARE BOTH SOUL AND BODY DESTROYED IN HELL?
Thank you for contacting BibleAsk.

There is nothing in the word psuchē itself that even remotely implies a conscious entity that is able to survive the death of the body and hence be immortal. In no instance of its use in the Bible does psuchē refer to a conscious entity able to exist apart from the body. The Bible knows nothing of a living, conscious soul that, supposedly, survives the body.

Seems "BibleAsk Team" isn't familiar with certain portions of the Bible. So why should we ask them anything?

Jesus told of 2 real people who died and went to sheol; Lazarus and a rich man. Jesus was real clear about both of them consciously existing, even after death. Where was their bodies? Buried in the ground, yet they both continued to exist consciously where they were; one in Abraham's bosom (Lazarus) and the rich man in 'torments'. Both were experiencing their existence, even after physical death.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Seems "BibleAsk Team" isn't familiar with certain portions of the Bible. So why should we ask them anything?

Jesus told of 2 real people who died and went to sheol; Lazarus and a rich man. Jesus was real clear about both of them consciously existing, even after death. Where was their bodies? Buried in the ground, yet they both continued to exist consciously where they were; one in Abraham's bosom (Lazarus) and the rich man in 'torments'. Both were experiencing their existence, even after physical death.

I don't think it necessary to demean a Bible website in order to make a scriptural point.

 

[godsquadgeek]

No, it's an old one. "Hell" is hades, where all souls went before Christ was resurrected. That's orthodox Christianity.


Correct. They will be cast into the lake of fire. For eternity.


"just"???? The lake of fire will be much worse than the holding tank for unbelievers.

btw, thanks for noting your opinion. But since there is no evidence that hades or sheol is equated to the lake of fire in Scripture, my view isn't my opinion. It's Scripture.

how do you know it's orthodox christianity, if you can't quote any scholars?

 

[godsquadgeek]

Frankly, the picture is a mess. Very small print, having to literally turn on one side, etc. Very difficult to read.

The error in this mess is that "paradise", "hell" and "tartarus" should all be on the same level, as that's when all souls went after death before Christ's resurrection. Along with the imprisoned angels.

I don't see how the picture equates tartarus, the abyss and the lake of fire either. In fact, the picture failed to include any reference for the abyss. In any case, where does the Bible equal these 3 places? It doesn't. That's the problem.

technically all five should be on the same level. But His rendering is more accurate than your opinions. Mark 9:43 proves you wrong where it calls the lake of fire, hell.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I said this:
"Probably just as many so-called "orthodox scholars" have gotten it wrong. The key is the Holy Spirit, not your so-called orthodox scholars."

I would never assume all scholars are Spirit filled. Spirit indwelt, sure. But not necessarily filled. Big difference.

I didn't make that distinction.

Oh, that's easy. Right.

It's easy if you are willing to put in the work. Not only that, but why should anyone listen to you or me over anyone else?

Given how much division there is among said scholars, I'd say they have much to lead us astray with their misunderstandings.

How can they teach us when they are in such disagreement?

The very same can be said of you and I

That quote is in regard to one's life. How to live it. Being accountable between self and others.

The responsible believer will put his ego, etc aside and actively seek to be filled with the Spirit every time he reads and studies the Word.

It has to do with all aspects of living and the fact that we keep each other sharp. It's a life principle.

I agree that scholars can be very helpful. But it takes discernment to know which ones are in line with Scripture.

I don't disagree. But who's to discern the conclusion of the discerner?

 

[FreeGrace]

I don't think it necessary to demean a Bible website in order to make a scriptural point.

Pointing out errors isn't demeaning.

 

[FreeGrace]

how do you know it's orthodox christianity, if you can't quote any scholars?

Does this mean citing Scripture directly isn't orthodox??

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Pointing out errors isn't demeaning.

Well if one wishes to go that tract, there are no errors in the site. Demeaning is personal opinion attempting to make non-credible a Bible study site.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's easy if you are willing to put in the work. Not only that, but why should anyone listen to you or me over anyone else?

How about just accepting what Scripture says, making sure the supposed meaning isn't refuted by other very clear verses to the contrary?

The very same can be said of you and I

I don't disagree. But who's to discern the conclusion of the discerner?

Then we should just quit discussing altogether.

I'll give an example of how people are not discerning regarding their view.

Loss of salvation view cannot explain the clear words of Jesus when He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. The LOS view claims those who have received eternal life CAN perish. dwIn direct conflict with the words of Jesus.

How is that discerning. There is a verse that directly refutes their view, yet they remain stedfast in their claim that eternal life can be lost even though Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

They have changed "shall never" to "may" or "can". Total lack of discernment.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Does this mean citing Scripture directly isn't orthodox??

yes, we have gone here before, and I believe I mentioned the first time that jehovah's witnesses quote from our Bible, and the second time you mention it, I said that mormons print our exact Bible and sell it in their stores. So yes you can quote the Bible but again scholars are helpful in considering what is orthodox. But you win, lets just quote verses from now on, starting with Mark 9:43 and how it proves you wrong where it calls the lake of fire, hell. I await your response.

 

[FreeGrace]

Well if one wishes to go that tract, there are no errors in the site. Demeaning is personal opinion attempting to make non-credible a Bible study site.

I showed the error.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

No. What was shown is lack of reading the site and comprehending the materials presented.

 

[Jim Parker]

BibleAsk.

They seem to be pretty orthodox.

iakov the fool

 

[Butch5]

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Or bad.

You can't apply the sentence of one to another if the Scriptures don't/

Nope. It's just common sense.

Dan 12:2 - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
A reference to believers and unbelievers. If one ceases to exist, there is no way they can experience anything, much less everlasting contempt. One has to exist in order to experience contempt. The verse is meaningless if souls cease to exist.

Let me start out by saying that the passages don't stated what you're claiming. You're trying to reason your position from these passages. There are passages of Scripture that state plainly that the dead, have no thoughts, cannot praise God, know nothing, etc. So, you're trying to argue against stated passages with inferences you're drawing from these passages. Having said that I'll address this passage. It says some will be raised to shame and everlasting contempt. It doesn't say they will experience contempt everlastingly. They held in contempt by God and He is everlasting. That's addressing the English text. Now if we address the Greek and Hebrew texts we find that the word translated, everlasting, is the Hebrew word "Olam" and the Greek word "aion." I've already pointed out the aion means an age, not eternity. It is used of finite periods of time elsewhere in Scripture. Likewise "olam" doesn't mean eternal either. It means, to the horizon.

Matt 25:41 - “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
This is about unbelievers, who will be thrown into the SAME PLACE as the devil and fallen angels. If souls cease to exist, the concept of "eternal fire" is meaningless.

Again, this is the word aion. It doesn't mean eternal. However, to say, if souls cease to exist the concept of eternal fire is meaningless is a non sequitur. It doesn't follow. Souls ceasing to exist has no bearing on how long the fire will burn.

Mark 9:44, 46, 48,49 speak of where unbelievers will go, along with the phrase "where their worm never dies".
Again, if a soul ceases to exist, why even make such a statement about "THEIR worm never dying"? It would be irrelevant.

Firstly what is their worm? Even so it says their worm doesn't die. It doesn't say they never die. However, if you look at the passage of Scripture that Jesus is quoting it's very clear that what is burning are dead bodies, not ghosts.

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa. 66:24 KJV)

2 Thess 1:9 - They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.
Please explain how a soul that ceases to exist can be punished with everlasting destruction.

If destruction leads to ceasing to exist, then the word "everlasting" is irrelevant and meaningless.

For punishment to be everlasting, the soul MUST EXIST, and experience the punishment.

If I was facing "everlasting punishment" but knew that I would cease to exist, what would I care about being punished? I wouldn't.

That's EXACTLY WHY atheists aren't afraid of death. They think they will simply cease to exist. They laugh at the idea of suffering after death. Boy will they be surprised.

Again, this passage uses the word, aion. It means an age. I'm surprised you used this passage as it actually supports my position. It talks of destruction not torment.

Rev 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
This is a reference to unbelievers, who take the mark of the beast. For smoke from THEIR torment to rise forever and ever, they must continue to exist forever and ever.

Then, the verse goes on to say there will be no rest day or night.

How can a soul that ceases to exist even be said to have "no rest"?? That doesn't make sense. In order to have 'no rest', one MUST EXIST.

These people are alive, not dead. They are worshipping the beast. They are not in the Lake of Fire burning because the Saints are there too.

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Rev. 14:10-12 KJV)

Note that they are in the presence of the Holy Angels and the Lamb. I don't think you'd suggest that this is in the Lake of Fire. In addition notice verse 12. It says, here is the patience of the saints: here are they who keep the commandments of God. The Greek word translated here, means in this place. We are told that the believers are spared the Lake of Fire. So, I think it's safe to say that this is not the Lake of Fire.

Also, again, for ever and ever is the word aion. It doesn't mean forever. It literally says, 'unto the age'.

It seems that your whole argument is really based on one word, aion. While many lexicons will say it means eternity, a study of the word in Scripture will quickly show otherwise. Jesus even spoke of the end of the aion. If Jesus said the aion will end then it obviously doesn't mean eternity. And, I'll take Jesus' word over all of the lexicon's in the world.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

This may help understand Luke 16 (Lazarus and the rich man)

• From Bible Ask:

The word “soul” Psuchē (plural, psuchai) is translated 40 times in the NT as “life” or “lives,” clearly with the meaning commonly attributed to the word “life” (Matthew 2:20; 6:25; 16:25; etc.). It is rendered 58 times as “soul” or “souls” (Matthew 10:28; 11:29; 12:18; etc.). In some of these instances it means simply “people” (Acts 7:14; 27:37; 1 Peter 3:20; etc.). In other instances it is translated as, or equivalent to, some personal pronoun ( Matt. 12:18; 2 Cor. 12:15; Ps. 16:10). At times it refers to the emotions (Mark 14:34; Luke 2:35; etc.), to the natural appetites (Rev. 18:14), to the mind (Acts 14:2; Phil. 1:27), or to the heart (Eph. 6:6).

There is nothing in the word psuchē itself that even remotely implies a conscious entity that is able to survive the death of the body and hence be immortal. In no instance of its use in the Bible does psuchē refer to a conscious entity able to exist apart from the body. The Bible knows nothing of a living, conscious soul that, supposedly, survives the body.

So, according to Scripture, the wicked will be destroyed in hell fire–both soul and body.

• The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 5590 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
yuce from (5594)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Psuche 9:608,1342
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
psoo-khay' Noun Feminine

1. breath
   1. the breath of life
      1. the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing 1a
   2. of animals 1a
2. of men
   1. life
   2. that in which there is life
      1. a living being, a living soul
3. the soul
   1. the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
   2. the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
   3. the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

• Coffman's Commentaries on the Bible

Luke 16

This great parable teaches many things. Barnes listed these: (1) the souls of men do not die with their bodies; (2) the soul is conscious after death; (3) the righteous go to a place of happiness, the wicked to a place of misery; (4) we should not envy the rich.Cross Reference
Albert Barnes, op. cit., p. 118.
" tooltipenable="true" style="color: rgb(86, 22, 73); cursor: pointer; font-size: 11px; vertical-align: super; font-weight: 700; display: inline;">[46]

Cox listed these: (1) we should not live in luxury while Lazarus begs at our gate; (2) the selfish use of wealth will bring torment beyond the grave; (3) memory will not be obliterated by death; (4) to prevent a great gulf from separating us from Lazarus in the hereafter, we should take care to see that the gulf is not there now; (5) if the ordinary means of grace cannot reach us, we need not expect the extraordinary; (6) he who is lost in death is lost eternally; (7) God's word is sufficient to save men.Cross Reference
Frank L. Cox, op. cit., p. 51.
" tooltipenable="true" style="color: rgb(86, 22, 73); cursor: pointer; font-size: 11px; vertical-align: super; font-weight: 700; display: inline;">[47]

ANALOGIES IN THE PARABLE

Going back to Augustine and Gregory the Great, many brilliant students of the word of God have found analogies in this parable with a scope of application broad as mankind itself.

Abraham is God, who alone presides over the destinies of men.

The rich man is primarily the ecclesiastical establishment of Israel. They wore the purple of God's royal favor, and the white linen of the sacred priesthood, and fared sumptuously in the bountiful knowledge that God delivered unto them in the Holy Scriptures.

Lazarus begging at the gate is the whole Gentile world lying in wretchedness, sin, and misery, which awful state Israel made no move whatever to alleviate.

The reversed status of Dives and Lazarus foretold the reversal of the status of the Jews and Gentiles in God's favor, as related so copiously by Paul in Romans.

The dogs that licked Lazarus' sores correspond to the ineffectual treatment of the Gentiles' wretched and sinful miseries by their philosophers, poets, and legislators.Cross Reference
For an extensive development of these and other analogies, see Richard C. Trench, op. cit., pp. 470-475.
" tooltipenable="true" style="color: rgb(86, 22, 73); cursor: pointer; font-size: 11px; vertical-align: super; font-weight: 700; display: inline;">[48]

The desire of the beggar to be fed suggests the longing of men's souls for a truth which they have not; but a truth which the Jew had, and had richly; and which, if he had been faithful to his trust, he would have imparted to the benighted nations of the Gentiles.

It is in the primary application to the Pharisees and others like them in the leadership of Israel that the full impact of this remarkable parable appears. The Pharisees were not merely rich materially, but they were the custodians of the whole treasure of God's revelation to mankind; and it was their unfaithfulness to THAT TRUST, more than their mere misuse of money, that earned them the denunciation apparent in this parable.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

They seem to be pretty orthodox.

iakov the fool

Is there an issue with orthodoxy ?

 

[PeterJens]

I do not support such. Neither did I indicate such. I did mention a positive response to general revelation leading to the provision of additional special revelation that in turn can lead to salvation in Christ.

Yes , everyone is a victim of something at some point in their life. But all have equal opportunity and access to succeed in their Maker. There is no excuse for failure except for sin committed in ignorance. But such sin does not have to be life destroying nor lead one to Hell.

I am a little confused. If everyone, literally everyone in the whole planet has equal opportunity to
succeed in their Maker, and sin does not have to be life destroying, why evangelise or preach?
Those who choose to follow God without witnessing apparently will do so according to you or not
without the need for us as believers to be involved.

So though you appear to deny people can be saved without revelation of the word of God, yet how
can sin not always lead one to Hell, unless this revelation comes?
It strikes me you want a reason to make people guilty of rebellion in a chosen way, which seems to
justify torture in Hell for eternity in your mind. I do not see this. As I indicated I hold people are
guilty of sin, which they are born into, being out of communion with God. Without this communion
sin will always lead to death, for without communion there is no forgiveness or salvation.