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The Law: Fulfilled or Abolished?

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[video="vimeo;20394161"]http://vimeo.com/20394161[/video]

http://www.ucg.org/booklet/what-doe...ats/does-new-testament-abolish-meat-distinct/

VS
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;<sup> </sup>Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


And the rest of Ephesians.


Are Christians to still follow torah or no?

 
Matthew 5 - THESE COMMANDMENTS!


20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.


"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, = Law of Moses = Righteousness of the Pharisee's [Righteousness of the Law].

But I say to you [Law of Christ] that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. = Righteousness that exceeds the Law.

[Flows from the Divine nature of Christ].


"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' Law of Moses [Righteousness of the Pharisee's]
28 But I say to you
that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Law of Christ [Exceeds the Righteousness of the Pharisee's]


"Furthermore it has been said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' Law of Moses [Righteousness of the Pharisee's]

32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. Law of Christ [Exceeds the Righteousness of the Pharisee's]



"Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.' Law of Moses [Righteousness of the Pharisee's]

34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one. Law of Christ [Exceeds the Righteousness of the Pharisee's]


38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' Law of Moses [Righteousness of the Pharisee's]

39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away. Law of Christ [Exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisee's]


43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' Law of Moses [Righteousness of the Pharisee's]

44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Law of Christ [Exceeds the Righteousness of the Pharisee's]


You have heard it said = Law of Moses

But I say = Law of Christ



But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, Romans 3:21



1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice, Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench; He will bring forth justice for truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, Till He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands shall wait for His law." 5 Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it: Isaiah 42:1-6

His law = But I say to you...


JLB
 
Are Christians to still follow torah or no?

Yes we are. The Spirit follows it, we live for the Spirit, so we follow it.

44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Law of Christ

This is the hardest one for me. I'm learning to.

The question is:

Is this commandment found in the law of Moses?


JLB
 
Are Christians to still follow torah or no?

Yes we are. The Spirit follows it, we live for the Spirit, so we follow it.

44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Law of Christ

This is the hardest one for me. I'm learning to.

The question is:

Is this commandment found in the law of Moses?


JLB
"Love your neighbor as yourself." (Leviticus 19:18 NASB)
 
Yes we are. The Spirit follows it, we live for the Spirit, so we follow it.



This is the hardest one for me. I'm learning to.

The question is:

Is this commandment found in the law of Moses?


JLB
"Love your neighbor as yourself." (Leviticus 19:18 NASB)

Yes Brother, that is found in Moses Law.

That was not the question.

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' Law of Moses [Righteousness of the Pharisee's]

44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Law of Christ [Exceeds the Righteousness of the Pharisee's]

Is what Jesus said - But I say to you... found in Moses Law?

That would be what He commanded in verse 44.


Please go back and read the post.

Jesus said: You have heard it said,
which is a reference to Moses Law.

It is the But I say to you, that is a law that exceeds the righteousness of the Law of Moses.

I listed them in post # 2.

Jesus was not teaching His disciples to keep Moses Law, for the commandments that He said to keep are not found in the Law.


JLB
 
It kinda makes sense. New covenant, new guidelines. Some tough ones too. It still sort of encompasses the mosaic law, just written in a new language structure.

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29

We have been give a "born again" nature that is empowered by the Holy Spirit

Therefore to whom much is given, much is expected.

Our "work" is to believe, which means trust and obey.

Our work is to be filled with the Spirit, so that The Spirit can lead us.

Observing special days, wearing special clothing, eating special food, is of no value in empowering the inner mar to walk in the Spirit.

for it is written -

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

Likewise, as Brother Jethro has pointed out,
Bible study, "going to Church", singing in the choir, doing church activities... does not necessarily mean that we are being filled with the Spirit.These are good things to do, but they in themselves, can be just as void in safeguarding the believer against the sinful desires of the flesh.

Only the work of being filled with God's Spirit, guarantees us to be in a position of dominion over the flesh nature.

JLB
 
[MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION] Do you really know what the Law of Moses is? You talk about it like it was an unwanted appendage that needs to be shed off?

If you have ears to hear, Jesus was the walking Law of Moses. He lived it, he exemplified it, he taught it, he was IT. Because we know he was the Word became flesh. If he really was the Word made flesh, can you admit Jesus was the walking Law of Moses?

Another tidbit about the structure of our OT nowadays, is different then the layout of the books of the bible a couple of thousands of years ago. I believe the last book was 2 Chronicles I believe, could be wrong though. The point being, God knew we would fiddle around with the books, and our bibles nowadays have Malachi as the last book leading into the NT. But what does Malachi 4 say? Specifically Malachi 4:4. Then that leads right into the first 5 chapters of Matthew when he says as plain as day I have not come to do away with.
 
If you have ears to hear, Jesus was the walking Law of Moses.

Jesus is a Priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

Show from the scriptures where The Law of Moses teaches us about a Priest after the order of Melchizedek and what His responsibilities are,

Does a priest after the order of Melchizedek submit to The priesthood of Levi?


When did Jesus ever go to the Temple to sacrifice an animal on behalf of His sin?

Please show from Moses Law where it is written -

44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:44-47

If you can not, then Jesus was not teaching us to "keep the Law of Moses".

Please Brother, I have asked you to show from the scripture these things and you never do. This is an important subject and needs to be verified directly from the scriptures, without adding or taking away from it.

Please don't provide links to your favorite commentary, but show from the Law where these things are written.

If you can not, then I ask you to consider that Jesus was teaching a Law that did not come from the Law of Moses.

Thank you and God bless you.


JLB
 
Are Christians to still follow torah or no?

We are under the law if we put ourselves under the law. Whosoever breaks the law shall be under the curse of the law. So, breaking the law, puts you under the curse, which can mean very bad things happening in your life. Duet 28 list a whole lot of rotten things that can happen. Mold, wife cheating on you, emeordes (Don't know what those are, but they don't sound very cool)

Everything in the Law is on the Royal law of love. So, eating bacon is cool because it does not break the royal law of love unless you get the pigs opinion about that.

Not living your life by obedience to that Royal law will put you right under the curse of the law. No need for all that as Jesus has redeemed us from the punishment of breaking the law, so mind your P's and Q's.........

The Bar has been raised for our standard of living compared to those that had to keep the law. In other words, much more is expected because we have much more to work with and knowledge. Walk in love, and love God. Very easy to remember.......... but very high standard.

No judging anyone unless in a position to do so and have the authority to carry out the judgment. Only fools put their mouth on people they have no jurisdiction over. Fools that get judged back and wonder why things never work out for them.
Love don't steal or commit adultery.
Love puts God first in everything, every action.

You get the point.


But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, Romans 3:21

Right, it's not rocket science separating ordinances and customs from the law of love.


'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Very interesting word. It's saying that a person has no salvageable qualities and is beyond hope.

Remember, our bar is much higher............... some get this idea that we are just poor sinners saved by grace, and you best not continue to be poor or a sinner but find out the great plan of God and stay on the path.

It kinda makes sense. New covenant, new guidelines. Some tough ones too. It still sort of encompasses the mosaic law, just written in a new language structure.

If you keep this in mind which has helped me.......................... How would I want someone to treat me if I am being a complete jerk and screwball? If I steal something, I expect to be punished, but would I personally want mercy and not have the punishment be over harsh?

If I am having a bad day and get short with someone and just grumpy, would I feel better if the smiled anyway and was kind to me? I use this at check out lanes a lot, I smile at the slow and grumpy cashier because the 5 people before me were rude to them.

If I am a server and the cooks mess up the food, I forgot the stinking bread sticks, my rent is due and have lots of other things on my mind besides taking care of you wanting to stuff your face, giving horrible service. Would I not want to still be tipped over 50% of the check? My wife and I do it all the time, giving grumpy bad servers 20.00 on just a 14.00 buffet and more than once they meet us at the door with tears saying thank you. I always ask God what the tip should be, and it's not based on the cost of the ticket or service, and God is not cheap it seems so best to always bring extra cash when going out to eat.

Keep those things in mind Edward, be a blessing to everyone you meet. In fact take a day and every person you talk to, it be your goal to leave them smiling and edified even if they are a cousin of the devil. Just one day, see what happens.

The short, treat others as you want to be treated.

Blessings.

Mike.
 
[MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION] Melchizedek, what do we know about his origins? He was first mentioned with Abraham, and we know him to be a High Priest. We know Melchizedek was a shadow of Jesus (Some would argue he was Jesus, but that's another story), but the foundation was laid right there, continued in Psalm 110:4 and onto Hebrews. In fact the foundation was laid in Genesis 3:15 about Jesus, and going forward eventually the realization of the Word made flesh came. Jesus was perfect, how much more perfect was the Law of Moses? The commandments of God cannot be changed or taken away, he has made that clear. Yet, you want to say he changed them.

You want to put the Torah into a box, and say show me this, show me that, but the Word is studying, discerning, dividing and interpreting it properly which Jesus did with the Torah. Show me the chapter on the Holy Spirit? What about speaking in tongues? Show the chapter about charity? What about the chapter on grace? The bible is not set up where you can find a section on this and that, it is woven and embedded throughout the entire bible. But the foundation of which everything must agree with is with the Torah. If it doesn't, then there is something wrong with your interpretation. The principles were laid out in the Torah, but it was taught by the leaders of the day so corruptly and blasphemed that he provided the correct interpretation of it.

You ask me to put a quote where exactly Jesus said this in the Torah, but sorry, it doesn't work that way. It is not like taking a cut from Leviticus and pasting it into John. Although you will find hundreds of verses in the NT directly from the OT.

When you quote Jesus saying, "You have heard..." that is an idiom for hearing it from the teachers of the Pharisees who incorrectly taught and practiced the Law of Moses, and when he says, "But I say to you..." that is the proper interpretation of the Law of Moses. He is pointing to the correct application of it, nothing else. He is teaching about himself.

So in Matthew 5:43-48 he is using the principles as set forth from Leviticus 19:13-18. Show me where God tells us to hate our enemy from the Law of Moses? Do you believe the Law of Moses even came from the breath of Yahweh?
 
[MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION] Melchizedek, what do we know about his origins? He was first mentioned with Abraham, and we know him to be a High Priest. We know Melchizedek was a shadow of Jesus (Some would argue he was Jesus, but that's another story), but the foundation was laid right there, continued in Psalm 110:4 and onto Hebrews. In fact the foundation was laid in Genesis 3:15 about Jesus, and going forward eventually the realization of the Word made flesh came. Jesus was perfect, how much more perfect was the Law of Moses? The commandments of God cannot be changed or taken away, he has made that clear. Yet, you want to say he changed them.

You want to put the Torah into a box, and say show me this, show me that, but the Word is studying, discerning, dividing and interpreting it properly which Jesus did with the Torah. Show me the chapter on the Holy Spirit? What about speaking in tongues? Show the chapter about charity? What about the chapter on grace? The bible is not set up where you can find a section on this and that, it is woven and embedded throughout the entire bible. But the foundation of which everything must agree with is with the Torah. If it doesn't, then there is something wrong with your interpretation. The principles were laid out in the Torah, but it was taught by the leaders of the day so corruptly and blasphemed that he provided the correct interpretation of it.

You ask me to put a quote where exactly Jesus said this in the Torah, but sorry, it doesn't work that way. It is not like taking a cut from Leviticus and pasting it into John. Although you will find hundreds of verses in the NT directly from the OT.

When you quote Jesus saying, "You have heard..." that is an idiom for hearing it from the teachers of the Pharisees who incorrectly taught and practiced the Law of Moses, and when he says, "But I say to you..." that is the proper interpretation of the Law of Moses. He is pointing to the correct application of it, nothing else. He is teaching about himself.

So in Matthew 5:43-48 he is using the principles as set forth from Leviticus 19:13-18. Show me where God tells us to hate our enemy from the Law of Moses? Do you believe the Law of Moses even came from the breath of Yahweh?

You ask me to put a quote where exactly Jesus said this in the Torah, but sorry, it doesn't work that way

Oh but that is exactly the way it works.

The very definition of "destroying the law" is adding or taking away from it.

Go ask a Jewish Rabbi what this term means.

If you are saying Jesus was teaching the Law of Moses in Matthew 5, and what He taught can not be found in the law, then he most certainly was not teaching the Law of Moses in His sermon on the mount.

It is either not one jot or tittle or nothing.

It would seem as if you are the one that does not understand the basic elementary aspects of the law of Moses.

Bless you. JLB
 
[MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION] I know what that idiom means. It means to incorrectly interpret a commandment from its intended purpose. Jesus was using the language of the day when speaking to the Pharisees. If he was railing on them for incorrectly applying Moses Law, how much more would he rail on us for completely disregarding them altogether?
 
[MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION] who do you think is the author of the Law of Moses? Do you believe the Law of Moses is Yahweh's own Word?
 
Ryan, Know therefore that Yehovah your God, he is God, the faithful God, which keeps covenant and mercy with those who love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; And repays those who hate him to their face, to destroy them; he will not be slack to him who hates him, he will repay him to his face.

Know this Ryan if in this day in age you are being drawn to follow God's torah then you may very well be living proof of Isaiah's prophecy. Yehovah is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the Torah, and make it glorious.

btw this Yom Teruah may your voice be loud and clear when you shout the name of your God Yehovah.
 
Ryan, Know therefore that Yehovah your God, he is God, the faithful God, which keeps covenant and mercy with those who love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; And repays those who hate him to their face, to destroy them; he will not be slack to him who hates him, he will repay him to his face.

Know this Ryan if in this day in age you are being drawn to follow God's torah then you may very well be living proof of Isaiah's prophecy. Yehovah is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the Torah, and make it glorious.

btw this Yom Teruah may your voice be loud and clear when you shout the name of your God Yehovah.

Who is Yehovah?

That is not God's name!
 
[MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION] I know what that idiom means. It means to incorrectly interpret a commandment from its intended purpose. Jesus was using the language of the day when speaking to the Pharisees. If he was railing on them for incorrectly applying Moses Law, how much more would he rail on us for completely disregarding them altogether?

So why do you add to the Law of Moses, commandments that do not appear in the OT?

JLB
 
Ryan, Know therefore that Yehovah your God, he is God, the faithful God, which keeps covenant and mercy with those who love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; And repays those who hate him to their face, to destroy them; he will not be slack to him who hates him, he will repay him to his face.

Know this Ryan if in this day in age you are being drawn to follow God's torah then you may very well be living proof of Isaiah's prophecy. Yehovah is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the Torah, and make it glorious.

btw this Yom Teruah may your voice be loud and clear when you shout the name of your God Yehovah.

Who is Yehovah?

That is not God's name!


Well, let me help you with your curious non-response to what I wrote above. Here's what God said via Isaiah

I am Yehovah; that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to carved idols.

Here its is in the original Hebrew

אני יהוה הוא שמי וכבודי לאחר לא-אתן ותהלתי לפסילים:

FYI I used the Aleppo Codex as a source for vowel pointing and pronunciation

Im curious what is the name of your god?

Also JLB you said that according to this Jesus fella "hate your enemy" was in the Torah. Mind pointing out where that one is? Ah never mind, wouldnt want to waste your time becauuse its not there! Jesus must have added to Gods word I guess. Just like Jesus did when he told the lawyer if he wanted eternal life he was to sell off all that he had. Yehovah says in His commandments a tenth the rest we get keep if we so desire. Whose commandment would you rather follow?

As to your assertion that what Jesus said is something new. "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Let me ask you JLB. If you were to expound upon Yehovah's commandment not to seek vengeance but to wait on Him to repay the nations for their blasphemous ways. How would you go about doing that JLB? Personally I think Jesus did pretty good job.

One more thing ever hear of Marcion of Sinope? His spirit is most alive in this world and living in you. Time for a change of heart.
 
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[MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION] do you believe the Law of Moses was from Yahweh? Or from Yehovah? Or from YUD-HEY-VAV-HEY?
 
Ryan, Know therefore that Yehovah your God, he is God, the faithful God, which keeps covenant and mercy with those who love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; And repays those who hate him to their face, to destroy them; he will not be slack to him who hates him, he will repay him to his face.

Know this Ryan if in this day in age you are being drawn to follow God's torah then you may very well be living proof of Isaiah's prophecy. Yehovah is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the Torah, and make it glorious.

btw this Yom Teruah may your voice be loud and clear when you shout the name of your God Yehovah.
Amen, awaiting Yom Teruah excitedly with a blast of the shofar.
 
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[MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION] do you believe the Law of Moses was from Yahweh? Or from Yehovah? Or from YUD-HEY-VAV-HEY?

It does not matter what I believe, it matters what is written in the scriptures.

You said Jesus taught us to keep the law of Moses, and used Matthew 5:19 as an example.

I asked you to show from the Law where the command is found that says -

44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, Matthew 5:19<sup class="footnote" style="display: none;">http://www.biblestudytools.com/nkjv/matthew/5.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-h</sup>

or this -

38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' <sup class="footnote" style="display: none;">http://www.biblestudytools.com/nkjv/matthew/5.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-f</sup> 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.

Not to resist is the opposite of an eye for an eye.

So you now have a choice to follow the Law of Moses or Obey the Commandment of Jesus.



JLB
 
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