Bible Study The Law of God - The Law of Moses - The Law

[Nathan]

Threads and posts have prompted this study to begin. I know that this has been discussed in great detail at other times and in other threads, but why not just sit down and do some refreshing of it again?

I want to start this for Rockie. I hope that it suits his desires. He is quite busy right now, but I know that this is something he wants to talk about.

My desire is to do a serious Biblical study on the Law. 1...2...3... different laws? So often we just see the word "law" translated in the Bible and saw it is pretty much the first 5 books of the Bible. After all, it is called the "Torah" which means 'instruction'; it is also known as the Pentateuch. So is this what is refereed to as a whole when the word "law" is used, for instance in the book of Acts?

I think that we can know for sure what is meant. I think that there is ample evidence that is given to us for us to know what is meant when the singular word "law" is used. I think that this evidence comes from proper contextual usage of the word. In that, I mean that the entire passage of where the word is used should be examined for the proper application.

Context seems to be an 'ugly' word to some. Or for some it seems to be a word of 'excuse'. But it is not just a word but a way of taking the human 'element' away, or at least lessening its effects on interpretation. Here is a definition of the word;

Context - "the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect; the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc".

In this way I wish to discuss the 'law' and do so Biblically.

So with that in mind, when do we first see the instance of the word "law" used in Scripture?

 

[Elijah674]

Hi there TRUE FRIEND!

You got a lot of views, but NO one likes Law, huh?? Love Christ but not His Moral 'Letter' to us.. His character make up?? (or 90% of Him at least. Dan. 7:25)

Anyhow, it seems that 'i' just spin the Lords (Eze.) wheels on here,;) but let me get this started with how 'i' see it. First I see the Eternal Law as the Moral makeup of the Godhead. God IS LOVE. OK: See if this makes any sense to you??

--------------------Law-------------------

The Word of God 'i' see as transcendentalism. All law is subject to the complete given Word, not parts of it! That to me is in [the Books] Context! Empirical based on its total CONTENT & verification which itself is law in Eternity!! (Heb. 13:20)
Personally for me 'i' have always seen the K.J. Bible itself being kept by the power of God, and its Word transcends as the whole, all of the individuals 'testimony' of individual penman. (Isa. 8:20) In other 'speech' (mine) it is my belief that THE WORD from the start of Gen. to the Rev. finish is top priority for understanding any part of The Word Of The Lord, [IT IS THE BOOK!] It is it own hermeneutics

We are asked to consider THE WORD LAW??? For me this is the Godheads Royal Eternal Universal Covenant Law! (James 2:8-12) The Epistle 'Letter' of Their Moral 'LOVE' Makeup! (2 Cor. 3:3)
To me, it cannot start as mere man wants to look for its first 'word formation!' We have no robot brains, we are created in the Image of God & can think! (hopefully?) So where does Law Originate?? In Eternity! How do you know? Because the 'Eternal' Word (which means that it has NO start or Finish!) documents that fact of Lucifer & sin! But most will say where is the wording at in Gen.??
John.1

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(The Godhead with NO LAW??? GET REAL!!! 1 John 3:4! Eze, 28:14:-15!)
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
......

[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

2 Tim. 3

[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

(And surely the Eternal Doctrine of Christ + the Eternal Moral Law of the Universe has NO STARTING PLACE! Heb. 13:20 + the Eternal Rev. 14:6 Eternal Gospel!)

--Elijah
​

 

[Nathan]

One day, in eternity, I am sure we will have a good time sitting by the river, eh? We might have to 'flip' a coin to see who gets to talk first, er, needs to stop talking first. ;) Indeed;

Ecc 12:12 ...Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Eternal indeed! But what would the word of God be with just Genesis...and...Revelation? We would miss Ruth, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, John, Galatians, Hebrews, and Jude.:gah

Sometimes we have things 'in the middle' for our learning and growing. Let(s) grow?

Luk 24:15-27 While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them. But their eyes were kept from recognizing him.(to test, maybe?)

And he said to them, "What is this conversation that you are holding with each other as you walk?" And they stood still, looking sad. Then one of them, named Cleopas, answered him, "Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?" And he said to them, "What things?" And they said to him, "Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him. But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened.

Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning, and when they did not find his body, they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see."

And he said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?" And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Friend indeed!
Pro 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; profuse are the kisses of an enemy.:verysick

 

[Nathan]

Except for the casual use of the word "law" used to describe relationship as in "in-law", I have found where it is used first in one translation, and in another it is used before that. Seeing how I am keen to the ESV, I obviously started there.

Exd 12:43-51 And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the statute of the Passover: no foreigner shall eat of it, but every slave that is bought for money may eat of it after you have circumcised him. No foreigner or hired servant may eat of it. It shall be eaten in one house; you shall not take any of the flesh outside the house, and you shall not break any of its bones. All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." All the people of Israel did just as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron. And on that very day the LORD brought the people of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their hosts.

Now if we use the KJV we find it first used in Genesis 47:26, but not again till the above quoted verse.

Gen 47:26 And Joseph made it a law over the land of Egypt unto this day, [that] Pharaoh should have the fifth [part]; except the land of the priests only, [which] became not Pharaoh's.

But as digging turned up, the word "law" used to describe what Joseph made is the word choq.

1) statute, ordinance, limit, something prescribed, due
a) prescribed task
b) prescribed portion
c) action prescribed (for oneself), resolve
d) prescribed due
e) prescribed limit, boundary
f) enactment, decree, ordinance
1) specific decree
2) law in general
g) enactments, statutes
1) conditions
2) enactments
3) decrees
4) civil enactments prescribed by God

But when we look at the instance in Exodus, where God Himself is speaking about the passover, the word towrah is used;

1) law, direction, instruction
a) instruction, direction (human or divine)
1) body of prophetic teaching
2) instruction in Messianic age
3) body of priestly direction or instruction
4) body of legal directives
b) law
1) law of the burnt offering
2) of special law, codes of law
c) custom, manner
d) the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law

So looking at the two, we already see that the word law has different meanings and we have only breeched the first two books of the Bible. One is used for ordinances, and one is used for direction.

Now. I do not want to take away the enjoyment of study, so I will pass the baton to another if they will kindly look up and post what word is used for "law" as it relates to what was placed into the side of the ark. Then if someone would look up and see what word is used for the "law" as it relates to what was place inside the ark. Yes, there was something inside, and something on the outside. Do a little digging and you will find it true.

 

[Jake]

My desire is to do a serious Biblical study on the Law. 1...2...3... different laws? So often we just see the word "law" translated in the Bible and saw it is pretty much the first 5 books of the Bible. After all, it is called the "Torah" which means 'instruction'; it is also known as the Pentateuch. So is this what is refereed to as a whole when the word "law" is used, for instance in the book of Acts?

God does not separate the laws, ordiances, statutes and the 10, so why should we?
It seems some people rely on "keeping the law", instead of letting Jesus save them.

The 10 commandments were given in the Exodus, they are also included in Deuteronomy which is the “book of the lawâ€, when the Bible speaks of the law, it does not separate the 10 commandments, the other 600 laws, or the ordinances, statutes, they are all one complete unit. You can not find any reference of the 10 commandments separate from the rest of the law and ordinances. They are a subset of the law. You can not have the 600 laws without the 10 and you can not have the 10 without the 600.


2 Kings 23:3 And the king stood by the pillar, and
made a covenant before Jehovah, to walk after Jehovah, and to keep his
commandments, and his testimonies, and his statutes, with all his heart,
and all his soul, to confirm the words of this covenant that were written in
this book: and all the people stood to the covenant.



What did they do when they didn’t have the Ark, which was where the 10 commandments were? They wrote them in a book along with all the
other laws and ordinances.



Deut 17:18-20 And it shall be, when he sitteth
upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a
book, out of that which is before the priests the Levites: and it shall be with
him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life; that he may learn to
fear Jehovah his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to
do them; that his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn
not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end
that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he and his children, in the midst
of Israel.


Sorry about the different fonts, I tried cutting and pasting from Word and it didn't work very well.

peace -

 

[Jake]

Hi there TRUE FRIEND!

You got a lot of views, but NO one likes Law, huh?? Love Christ but not His Moral 'Letter' to us.. His character make up?? (or 90% of Him at least. Dan. 7:25)

We like the one that says to Love the Lord with all your heart mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself, it sums all the rest up IN Jesus, which was by the way, the reason for the 10, they were a shadow, Jesus is our Ark now! And hey, it was actually given to YOU.

--------------------Law-------------------

The Word of God 'i' see as transcendentalism. All law is subject to the complete given Word, not parts of it! That to me is in [the Books] Context! Empirical based on its total CONTENT & verification which itself is law in Eternity!! (Heb. 13:20)
Personally for me 'i' have always seen the K.J. Bible itself being kept by the power of God, and its Word transcends as the whole, all of the individuals 'testimony' of individual penman. (Isa. 8:20) In other 'speech' (mine) it is my belief that THE WORD from the start of Gen. to the Rev. finish is top priority for understanding any part of The Word Of The Lord, [IT IS THE BOOK!] It is it own hermeneutics

We are asked to consider THE WORD LAW??? For me this is the Godheads Royal Eternal Universal Covenant Law! (James 2:8-12) The Epistle 'Letter' of Their Moral 'LOVE' Makeup! (2 Cor. 3:3)
To me, it cannot start as mere man wants to look for its first 'word formation!' We have no robot brains, we are created in the Image of God & can think! (hopefully?) So where does Law Originate?? In Eternity! How do you know? Because the 'Eternal' Word (which means that it has NO start or Finish!) documents that fact of Lucifer & sin! But most will say where is the wording at in Gen.??
John.1

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(The Godhead with NO LAW??? GET REAL!!! 1 John 3:4! Eze, 28:14:-15!)

[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
......

[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

2 Tim. 3

[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

(And surely the Eternal Doctrine of Christ + the Eternal Moral Law of the Universe has NO STARTING PLACE! Heb. 13:20 + the Eternal Rev. 14:6 Eternal Gospel!)

--Elijah





[/INDENT]

Elijah,
You must step out of the OLD and into the NEW. Just let Jesus save you instead of following what was given to the Israelites, and was NOT given to you. You really have no business following something that was only given to the Israelites.

Isaiah 42:6 I, Jehovah, have called
thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give
thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Isaiah 51:4 Attend unto me, O my
people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall go
forth from me, and I will establish my justice for a light of the peoples.

 

[Elijah674]

Except for the casual use of the word "law" used to describe relationship as in "in-law", I have found where it is used first in one translation, and in another it is used before that. Seeing how I am keen to the ESV, I obviously started there.

Exd 12:43-51 And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the statute of the Passover: no foreigner shall eat of it, but every slave that is bought for money may eat of it after you have circumcised him. No foreigner or hired servant may eat of it. It shall be eaten in one house; you shall not take any of the flesh outside the house, and you shall not break any of its bones. All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." All the people of Israel did just as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron. And on that very day the LORD brought the people of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their hosts.

Now if we use the KJV we find it first used in Genesis 47:26, but not again till the above quoted verse.

Gen 47:26 And Joseph made it a law over the land of Egypt unto this day, [that] Pharaoh should have the fifth [part]; except the land of the priests only, [which] became not Pharaoh's.

But as digging turned up, the word "law" used to describe what Joseph made is the word choq.

1) statute, ordinance, limit, something prescribed, due
a) prescribed task
b) prescribed portion
c) action prescribed (for oneself), resolve
d) prescribed due
e) prescribed limit, boundary
f) enactment, decree, ordinance
1) specific decree
2) law in general
g) enactments, statutes
1) conditions
2) enactments
3) decrees
4) civil enactments prescribed by God

But when we look at the instance in Exodus, where God Himself is speaking about the passover, the word towrah is used;

1) law, direction, instruction
a) instruction, direction (human or divine)
1) body of prophetic teaching
2) instruction in Messianic age
3) body of priestly direction or instruction
4) body of legal directives
b) law
1) law of the burnt offering
2) of special law, codes of law
c) custom, manner
d) the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law

So looking at the two, we already see that the word law has different meanings and we have only breeched the first two books of the Bible. One is used for ordinances, and one is used for direction.

Now. I do not want to take away the enjoyment of study, so I will pass the baton to another if they will kindly look up and post what word is used for "law" as it relates to what was placed into the side of the ark. Then if someone would look up and see what word is used for the "law" as it relates to what was place inside the ark. Yes, there was something inside, and something on the outside. Do a little digging and you will find it true.

Hi, which law was Abram keeping long long before God 'pedigreed' any Jew? Abe was CALLED because of this LOVING OBEDIENT LAW KEEPING! Gen. 26:5 He had been a GENTILE Soul winner in Gen. 12:5. (and if one can use their brain?) All of these souls were brought only to Christ, only one way. The Rev. 14:6 ETERNAL GOSPEL OF CHRIST!

And What was Adam's first Sermon that he heard on his FIRST day of life? (The 7th Day Sabbath) ??? The Birthday of Earth's Creation! Most of the today ones need awakening! And this 7th Day Sabbath was before the writing of the stone Eternal Covenant & (even saying REMEMBER! remember friom where? creation week!) as incorporated in the LOVE GOD FIRST table side & today repeated IN THE BORN AGAIN HEART & MIND. (IF one has one???)

And law of Moses? Where on earth does one think that the Altar Ark requirement ORIGINATED from??? Gen. 3:15 Even most of the Jer. 17:5 'gents' understand a fraction of this. They understand that AFTER SIN that this was an added [REQUIREMENT] until Christ 'OPENED THE WAY [BY HIS SACRIFICE] INTO THE MOST HOLY PLACE IN HEAVEN ABOVE'. See this added [LAW] in Gal. 3:19 long before Moses!!

It is mind boggaling to me to think of Adam living around a 1000 years, having a perfect created 'memory' + I.Q. and with having God Talk to him & Eve person to person, and then we see 'us'ins' of today, thinking that during period of time that we are to be BRAIN/DEAD! Forget Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15. Whatever?? huh?;) Even Abe the tithe payer.

OK: You say: So looking at the two, we already see that the word law has different meanings and we have only breeched the first two books of the Bible. One is used for ordinances, and one is used for direction.
(Me here: Is not the word CONDITIONAL REQUIREMENT best used?)

Now. I do not want to take away the enjoyment of study, so I will pass the baton to another if they will kindly look up and post what word is used for "law" as it relates to what was placed into the side of the ark. Then if someone would look up and see what word is used for the "law" as it relates to what was place inside the ark. Yes, there was something inside, and something on the outside. Do a little digging and you will find it true.[/QUOTE]

Excellent post, now with that, who will answer even that one paragraph of yours??????

--Elijah

PS: And instead, here come other's teaching with the same old false Jer. 17:5 stuffing's of yester/year! In stead of even using scripture, they attack the poster, huh;) Matt. 10:25, but lets see if there are any 'legit' takers around here?

 

[Nathan]

It really would be nice if this study would progress onward. There is no 'legalism' in study. I am not asking us to look in some other book for reference. I just wanted to get a good hearty Bible study going.

As far as copy and pasting passages, I have found that Blue Letter Bible comes through perfect. It transfers the 'fn' also, but I just delete them for clarity.

No one is claiming to be keeping the "law" instead of living in the faith of Christ, through the leading of His Spirit. If that were the case then who could have been 'saved' way back before Christ came in the flesh? Only the heathen people who did not care about the law or witness of God?

Are YOU absolutely positive that the Bible does not separate them, and make a distinction? If you are, then there should be no fear of doing this study? But if your not, then why not participate?

You are correct. There is/was a book they read out of that contained the WHOLE of Gods "law". But even the verse you quoted makes a distinction of different 'parts'. The Bible contains old and new "parts", yet by your own admission they are separate and unique. What's the difference?

Do some digging. If there is absolutely no reference that something was placed on the side, and something else was place inside, then you will not find anything. But if there is, then it will be blatantly obvious. Do a search for "ark", then read the accounts of what was done. If you have a good Bible program search for "place" or "placed" when you search for "ark". But just searching "ark", you will find some good treasures.

 

[Eventide]

Paul tells us that the LAW is HOLY, JUST, and GOOD.. and of course it is.. it's a perfect picture of Christ, the one who alone fulfilled all that it requires of man..

We also know that no man will be justified in keeping the law, but rather that its purpose was to show us how sinful WE ARE and to LEAD US to Christ..

And once a person is in Christ, they have HIS righteousness imputed to them.. and so that's why Paul says that the LAW is NOT for a righteous man, but for sinners.. for those who are disobedient.. because again, that IS its purpose, to lead us to Christ.

 

[Nathan]

Not that I mind this discussion, but seriously?? Is there something people have against a study? If I go into the CT&A forum, ask a question about something I will receive a lot of answers that are specific to the question asked. Yet no one seems to want to just do a simple word search?

I am not mad. I have thoroughly enjoyed the study myself, what I have done on my own. And I believe this can still be a good study. No one has ever said that the law is for our righteousness. Is there something I am missing? Why the opposition to study?

 

[Jake]

Not that I mind this discussion, but seriously?? Is there something people have against a study? If I go into the CT&A forum, ask a question about something I will receive a lot of answers that are specific to the question asked. Yet no one seems to want to just do a simple word search?

I am not mad. I have thoroughly enjoyed the study myself, what I have done on my own. And I believe this can still be a good study. No one has ever said that the law is for our righteousness. Is there something I am missing? Why the opposition to study?

Nathan, I did give you scripture to study. haha j/k

You stated there is a law inside the ark and outside the ark, I gave you scripture that states they are the one and same.

How can we study the difference when that difference doesn't exist?

 

[Theofilus]

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. Do you want to do a "word study" for the word "law", where you look for all the occurrances of a word and try to find it's meaning from that? In my opintion, that's not a good method of Bible study, since it's always based on translations and, as you have pointed out, there are different words that can sometimes be translated using the sam English word. To do a propper "word study", you would have to look for all the occurances of, say, "torah" or "nomos".

But if you don't want to do a word study, but just a general Bible study about what God's word says about His law, then we have to realize that the word "law" is used in different ways, sometimes without any explination, since it was assumed that the readers knew what the author was talking about. For example, Paul talks about the law in Romans, and what he says is often used to show that the OT law has been abolished, but if we look closer, we can see that he is talking about at least 3 or 4 different laws in Romans 7 and that the one that no longer has power over us is not God's law, but the law of sin.

For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. (Rom. 7:22-23 NIV)​

Every one of those 4 is a translation of the Greek word "nomos". A simple word study won't reveal any difference in the meaning.

As for your question regarding the ark, the second set of tablets (the one that Moses made and God wrote on) was put in the ark, but "this book of the law" was put beside it. That book is what we today know as the Books of Moses.

At that time the LORD said to me, 'Cut for yourself two tablets of stone like the first, and come up to me on the mountain and make an ark of wood. 2And I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets that you broke, and you shall put them in the ark.' (Deu. 10:1-2 ESV)​

When Moses had finished writing the words of this law in a book to the very end, Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, "Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you. (Deu. 31:24-26 ESV)​

 

[Jake]

Hi, which law was Abram keeping long long before God 'pedigreed' any Jew? Abe was CALLED because of this LOVING OBEDIENT LAW KEEPING! Gen. 26:5 He had been a GENTILE Soul winner in Gen. 12:5. (and if one can use their brain?) All of these souls were brought only to Christ, only one way. The Rev. 14:6 ETERNAL GOSPEL OF CHRIST!

And What was Adam's first Sermon that he heard on his FIRST day of life? (The 7th Day Sabbath) ??? The Birthday of Earth's Creation! Most of the today ones need awakening! And this 7th Day Sabbath was before the writing of the stone Eternal Covenant & (even saying REMEMBER! remember friom where? creation week!) as incorporated in the LOVE GOD FIRST table side & today repeated IN THE BORN AGAIN HEART & MIND. (IF one has one???)

And law of Moses? Where on earth does one think that the Altar Ark requirement ORIGINATED from??? Gen. 3:15 Even most of the Jer. 17:5 'gents' understand a fraction of this. They understand that AFTER SIN that this was an added [REQUIREMENT] until Christ 'OPENED THE WAY [BY HIS SACRIFICE] INTO THE MOST HOLY PLACE IN HEAVEN ABOVE'. See this added [LAW] in Gal. 3:19 long before Moses!!

It is mind boggaling to me to think of Adam living around a 1000 years, having a perfect created 'memory' + I.Q. and with having God Talk to him & Eve person to person, and then we see 'us'ins' of today, thinking that during period of time that we are to be BRAIN/DEAD! Forget Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15. Whatever?? huh?;) Even Abe the tithe payer.

OK: You say: So looking at the two, we already see that the word law has different meanings and we have only breeched the first two books of the Bible. One is used for ordinances, and one is used for direction.
(Me here: Is not the word CONDITIONAL REQUIREMENT best used?)

Now. I do not want to take away the enjoyment of study, so I will pass the baton to another if they will kindly look up and post what word is used for "law" as it relates to what was placed into the side of the ark. Then if someone would look up and see what word is used for the "law" as it relates to what was place inside the ark. Yes, there was something inside, and something on the outside. Do a little digging and you will find it true.

Excellent post, now with that, who will answer even that one paragraph of yours??????

--Elijah

PS: And instead, here come other's teaching with the same old false Jer. 17:5 stuffing's of yester/year! In stead of even using scripture, they attack the poster, huh;) Matt. 10:25, but lets see if there are any 'legit' takers around here?

I did address that paragraph, and I am not attacking any poster, if you think I was attacking you, you are mistaken. What bothers me is that you both insist on following the Law when we are saved by grace. We are no longer under law but you insist on preaching it.
WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW!
The Bible does not separate all the laws, ordinances, statutes or the 10 - they are one.
Yet you keep insisting that I am one of those evil people going to hell and I can assure you the Holy Spirit confirms with me that I am not one of those people, so stop sending people to hell in your own mind, it's disturbing because anyone who does not believe exactly the way you believe - are lost and there is no redeeming. You do not preach the grace of Christ, but those not keeping the law are doomed to hell.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan, I did give you scripture to study. haha j/k

You stated there is a law inside the ark and outside the ark, I gave you scripture that states they are the one and same.

How can we study the difference when that difference doesn't exist?

So your thought is there was not a law put in and one outside? Or your saying that there was, but they both had the same words?

 

[Elijah674]

Not that I mind this discussion, but seriously?? Is there something people have against a study? If I go into the CT&A forum, ask a question about something I will receive a lot of answers that are specific to the question asked. Yet no one seems to want to just do a simple word search?

I am not mad. I have thoroughly enjoyed the study myself, what I have done on my own. And I believe this can still be a good study. No one has ever said that the law is for our righteousness. Is there something I am missing? Why the opposition to study?

This was to another on the same subject. ---Elijah

Nate: Hey, is this not the same law SEPERATED by God Himself, from Moses penned one in a book? (as one post states) And your remark of.. 'NO ONE HAS EVER SAID THAT THE LAW IS FOR OUR RIGHTOUSNESS' will be said continuely over & over again by the ones of 2 Cor. 4:2. So you might as well get used to it.;)
But what gets me is when 'posters' do not admit their open mistake, 'IF SINCERE'?!

For another!
Hi, this is where we few mightily disagree! God wrote the Eternal Covenant His way only! Isa. 8:20 & Heb. 13:20. He had human/man/kind who He 'inspired' to write His Words as.. human 'Holy men of God' who described their inspiration in their own personal wordings! Think why the Godhead had Christ come in SINFUL DECAYED FLESH? This is the same reason They had human decayed mankind do the 'testimony' part! Why did they do it this way? You figure it out!

Unless of course, that you think that the Holy Spirit used words like Heb. 12:8's bastards? Or 1 Sam. 25:22-34 piss? Or 2 Kings 18:22's more of mans descriptive wordings. No, you will NEVER convince me that those are the Godheads choice of Words.

And sabbaths? You do know that the day Christ rested (dead) in the tomb was a high day, do you not? John 19:30-31? (+) Notice that the Lamb was to slain at the evening offering of sacrifice, Friday the preparation day. The day of atonement. And plural?? *Sabbath & sabbath. (is that what you are asking? THE LAW OF GOD & Moses ordinances?)

That is what Colossians call them ALL! Verse 16 '.. of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath day(s), ..." (plural) (law of ORDINANCE'S' plural as seen in Eph. 2:15)

"..Why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ORDINANCE(S)" Col. 2:20

"And Moses wrote this law, ... when Moses made an end of the writings of this law in a book, ... put this law [in the side] of the Ark of the Covenant of the Lord your God.." Deut. 31:9 & 24-26 in part. (what was [inside] the Ark? see 1 Kings 8:9, later on Moses rod that buddeth was added)

What were the laws that Moses wrote that were finished at the cross on the Day of Atonement, that ended all animal slayings at Christ's death?

"Even after a certain rate every day, offering according [to the commandments of Moses], on the sabbath's', (plural) and on the new moon's', (plural) and on the *solemn feast's', (plural) three time's' a year, even the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of week's', (plural) and in the feast of tabernacles's'. (again plural) You did catch the plural of sabbaths?

These were not the Sabbath (singular) of the Eternal 7th. day Sabbath that the Godhead blessed and Set aside for Holy use at creation week. These sabbath's' all came to the front in Exodus 25. See verse 8 All of these days had special meaning for these ones to know what God planed for then. If any wanted to understand God's way for us today, what better study that this??

"And let them make ME a Sanctuary; that I may dwell among them." v. 8
And David in Psalms 77:13?? "THY WAY, O GOD, IS IN THE SANCTUARY: ."

We as a people see that the Vail separating the Holy from the Most Holy place was rent from top to bottom by an unseen hand at the death of the Master, making the way into the second compartment where He is seen in the book of Heb. doing His closing work. This study would have one understand that the Most Holy place in heaven is still the study of Exodus from the Vail on!

Please be patient with me, 'i' honestly do not see where you are coming from? I suspect that i have written you two books , and most likely one of us are still spinning our wheels?;)

 

[Theofilus]

So your thought is there was not a law put in and one outside? Or your saying that there was, but they both had the same words?

What was put in the ark was a subset of what was placed beside the ark. The words in the ark were written by God on tablets of stone, but what was beside the ark was written by Moses as God spoke them to him. Both are God's words and equally valid. Niether is more or less than the other.

 

[Nathan]

Theo, yes and no.

I wanted to lay a foundation based upon the word, then move into a discussion about the word. I fully realize that a word study alone will NOT give us understanding. But a 'topical' will not either.

I like to do things the hard way. Lol. It means time must be spent on it, but it's well worth it. We are a "now" society. We want information, we google it. We want food, we buy it. We want love, we demand it.

It seems that most people have lost the way of desire. Psalm 19

 

[Nathan]

I love that this is picking up. This may not be a bust after all. Lol

Unfortunately I am quit busy at the moment at this chilli cookoff. Tonight I will have ample time to get involved and won't have to type with one finger on my phone. Sorry guys.

 

[cyberjosh]

I recently bought two books so that I can study how the law was understood by the New Testament authors, both from Frank Thielman, and they are a very thorough examination of each use of the word law in the NT:

Paul & the Law: A Contextual Approach

The Law and the New Testament: The Question of Continuity

I think we should take advantage of others, like us, who have done such studies before us, and Frank Thielman provides some invaluable resources for such a study.

If you will forgive a short rant, one thing I've realized though is this: When our understanding of the Word grows and of who Jesus is sometimes we have to fight our intellect, we experience angst, and in some circumstances can even be shaken by what me must confront or hurdles we must jump in the path of our understanding.

However if we take what we "believe" beyond study - detatch ourselves from the almost insatiable clinging to study - and actually live the Christian life (and emphasize things study cannot accomplish for or in us: prayer, communion, faith, good works, and fellowship) then our heart might also see our own motives for wanting to understand the Scriptures in the way we do, and in so doing we might experience something we could never obtain through mere study: and that is a true spiritual understanding of the truth.

I'll be the first to admit that recent studies in this section have challenged me, but what it forced me to do is to consider everything, beyond just who has what perspective and what sounds more convincing, to evaluating what impact it makes in who I am before God. When I did that it stripped away some preconceptions yet it also strengthened some of the most spiritually deep-rooted things and convictions in me.

I realized sometimes forums are not a good medium at all for arguements in certain circumstances, and I hardly could see the apostles ever subjecting themselves to whimsical public opinion in such a way as we do on forums (imagine is the Epistles were written on forums... and subjected to endless ridicule from everyone with an opinion), but at the same time it can be a friendly community in which to share ideas and study the truths of God, if done in the right manner.

I have matured to a point to where I have been pushed to go out and live my Christian life more actively in the real world and perhaps even distance myself from (what can be for me - when I am lazy) "idle" forum discussion, and I have come to value recently more than ever the call to wisdom and knowledge (not head knowledge but heart, experiential klnowledge) of the woman in Proverbs 8.

I suppose I said all that to say: study the law, study the Gospel; study works, study faith; study judgement, study mercy; study justice, study grace; study life, study death; study the condition of mankind, study the person of Christ; in all things though I beg everyone not to make your understanding of the Bible a pharisaical knowledge, but rather make it a sprititual undertaking. Doctrines can be spun until you've created your own section (defintion of a denomination) of understanding, but denominations don't even exist except to catergorize how people approach the real unchanging truth of God's word. Let us never confuse the two.

So I guess the trigger for what I've said, in this case, is how the law is relevant to us. If the law is to be our all in all, we are in sad condition. If Christ is to be our all in all, when we have hope. But Christ is both law and Gospel, grace and truth, willing and doing unto his people. And all his sheep who hear his voice obey. Walk the narrow line, hold on to one thing without letting of another, test everything, hold on to the good.

I hope someone understood, because I can't think of another way to say what I've just said at the moment.

May God bless you and give you understanding,

~Josh

 

[Who Says]

Threads and posts have prompted this study to begin. I know that this has been discussed in great detail at other times and in other threads, but why not just sit down and do some refreshing of it again?

I want to start this for Rockie. I hope that it suits his desires. He is quite busy right now, but I know that this is something he wants to talk about.

My desire is to do a serious Biblical study on the Law. 1...2...3... different laws? So often we just see the word "law" translated in the Bible and saw it is pretty much the first 5 books of the Bible. After all, it is called the "Torah" which means 'instruction'; it is also known as the Pentateuch. So is this what is refereed to as a whole when the word "law" is used, for instance in the book of Acts?

I think that we can know for sure what is meant. I think that there is ample evidence that is given to us for us to know what is meant when the singular word "law" is used. I think that this evidence comes from proper contextual usage of the word. In that, I mean that the entire passage of where the word is used should be examined for the proper application.

Context seems to be an 'ugly' word to some. Or for some it seems to be a word of 'excuse'. But it is not just a word but a way of taking the human 'element' away, or at least lessening its effects on interpretation. Here is a definition of the word;

Context - "the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect; the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc".

In this way I wish to discuss the 'law' and do so Biblically.

So with that in mind, when do we first see the instance of the word "law" used in Scripture?

If you would kindly permit me I would like to point out where any study of God's Law must begin lest we miss the purpose and reason for the written Laws lain out as they were in scripture.

Paul spoke saying, (Galatians 3:22 KJV) "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."

The study of God's Law and of God's Covenants of Old must begin with identifying when and where "the scripture hath concluded all under sin" and then seeing how God's grace intervened in the Messiah that was yet to come.

When did the scripture conclude all under sin?

This was done from before the founding of the world. The founding of the world is easily established as when Adam and Eve gave birth to their first child. God founded paradise but through the corruption of sin Adam founded the world. Not that Adam sinned by having children but that Adam had his children outside of Paradise and they were born into sin due to his rebellion against God's Law.

The point at which God pronounced the sentence of death upon Adam and upon all who were in Adams loins (which was before Adam had child) is what Paul refers to as, "the scripture hath concluded all under sin."

Here is why this is vital to understanding the purpose and functioning of God's written Law to Israel and of the covenants God made with men who showed the spirit of faith:

No child could be born through the flesh of Adam as a child to God. All born of Adam were born to the consequences of sin, corruption and death and dieing. (Psalms 51:5)

Grace stepped in then and there before the founding of the world at the very moment God sentenced Adam and all in his loins to die.

I will give you a number of scriptures to ponder which show God's grace stepping in right then and there from before the founding of the world.

But first I want you to fix this thought in your mind: God did not ever make a Covenant with flesh because all flesh was dead, confined under sin in Adam. The flesh pridefully thought that God did, but He didn't. God put conditions on his covenants that he knew the flesh could not keep. And this was to take the promises enticingly away from the flesh, making men have to chase after them in the afore promised Messiah, Jesus Christ who was coming.

(Romans 5:6,14-21; Romans 3:9;20-24; 1 Corinthians 15:21-22,45; Colossians 2:11-15; Galatians 3:13-29)

Keep in mind that even Abel's being imputed righteousness was due to the grace of God in Christ reaching back to credit him, for even Abel came from Adam confined under sin to death. No one ever became a child of God in the scriptures but through the spirit in this way. It has never been through fleshly inheritance.

Psalms 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,