The Lord's day

Discussion in 'Apologetics' started by dirtfarmer, Sep 21, 2017.

  1. tim-from-pa

    tim-from-pa Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,418
    Location:
    Eastern Pa
    Diane is not claiming to be Jewish, either, but of the tribe of Ephraim, from the house of Israel. Ephraim has the birthright unlike the Jew and is the elect part of Israel. But even that is a promise of becoming many people and many nations. The apostle Paul mentions that promise of becoming many nations in Romans 4. And within that context many now and even more later would receive the gospel. Even the Lord said to go out to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, in which in another passage the Jews sneered and said to the effect where will he go that we cannot find him? will he go to those of the dispersion? These Israelites, who became as Gentiles "not my people" as mentioned in Hosea, and a sizable multitude, would later Join with Judah again in the end. God is not through with either, but the Jews especially he has yet to deal with.

    In the meantime, the church is a small group, likened onto a spiritual Judah and Levi (Revelation 1:6) who will lead and teach the rest of Israel in the age to come. And not only the rest of Israel, but also the whole world.

    I say this so that we all have to be careful not to cast Israel aside as if it's a mere side mention or in limbo until the Millennium. The bible is a book about Israel and everything we have in the so-called "Church age" we owe to Israel and indeed is patterned off of Israel and an extension.
     
  2. dirtfarmer

    dirtfarmer Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2016
    Messages:
    1,575
    Location:
    Loganville Ga
    hello tim-from-pa, dirtfarmer here

    It is my understanding that Ephraim was one of the sons of Joseph that his inheritance was given to. Manasseh was the other, the first born.

    Would you further elaborate your statement: " Ephraim has the birthright unlike the Jews and is the elect part of Israel". Where is the promise of becoming many nations in Romans 4 to Ephraim and not to Abraham? I understand the symbolism of the "last" born as a reference between Adam and Christ.
     
  3. tim-from-pa

    tim-from-pa Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,418
    Location:
    Eastern Pa
    The Jews (Judah) had the scepter and in the land of Israel that specifically went to the house of King David, Solomon and down the line for the earthly Kings. Christ came from David's son Nathan but was adopted into the Solomonaic lineage via Joseph but in the meantime Kings reign(ed) until Christ comes to take that throne rightfully his. Otherwise, Judah does not have the birthright. Only those promises, although they are big.

    You are correct in that both Ephraim and Manasseh have the birthright being both from the (double portioned) tribe of Joseph. This is what I meant by elect. These are those who became many nations. So the (traditional) Christian nations of today, believing they are Abraham's seed spiritually, unbeknownst to them are also physically of the seed of Abraham thru not only Joseph, but the other tribes as well! They think they are Gentiles unrelated to Abraham and perhaps think they came from a Japhetic lineage or to that effect. Me thinks that's ingenious of God to use his own thick-headed people to be the purveyors of the gospel message and bible societies in spite of themselves. So some of the people who were elect of race became the same ones elect by grace today while the rest carry on with life, but will be saved (as with the Jew) later. This is why some of the warnings to Israel does indeed apply to the USA even though those who preach those things often don't understand or accept the reason why. As Paul would say, either way, Christ is proclaimed and I can chuckle to myself knowing the reason.
     
  4. dirtfarmer

    dirtfarmer Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2016
    Messages:
    1,575
    Location:
    Loganville Ga
    hello tim-from-pa, dirtfarmer here

    If I understand what you are saying is that you believe in a replacement doctrine with a twist. That the USA is the Israel that God is using for the promises made to Abraham to be fulfilled? I don't see that Israel has been replaced by the USA. If I am incorrect please clarify.
     
  5. tim-from-pa

    tim-from-pa Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,418
    Location:
    Eastern Pa
    Not really replacement. USA in part is just fulfilling the birthright portion of the covenant because they are the same people. Judah is needed to fulfill the Messianic part. And like the rest of Israel, they have inheritance in the land, too. The unconverted Israelite will have to be called the same as the unconverted Jewish person. Meanwhile, the house of Israel was the light for the gospel, the Jews are the lawgivers (Genesis 49) and without them there would be no accurate bible. God used them as his visible people to preserve the ancient ways of Israel, the primary way being the accuracy of the scriptures already mentioned. USA (and other nations) do not crowd out the Jews at all. Indeed, prophecy shows they are two different nations, the one of which becoming many.

    Some of the "supremacist" doctrine out there differs in that they don't believe the Jews are Jews at all, but impostors wanting what the Jews rightfully owned. This is not the case in what I am saying in that any type of replacement theology replaces the people of the covenant with a new group. I have not done that whatsoever. However, I can see how the similarities are confusing.
     
  6. dirtfarmer

    dirtfarmer Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2016
    Messages:
    1,575
    Location:
    Loganville Ga
    hello tim-from-pa, dirtfarmer here

    What birthright portion are you referencing that the USA is fulfilling?
     
  7. ezra

    ezra Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2012
    Messages:
    3,176
    Christian:
    Yes
    every day is the Lord day i go to church on sunday due to the fact jesus arose from the tomb on 3rd day... but if you attend church on a saturday and have jesus .you still good to go
     
  8. tim-from-pa

    tim-from-pa Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,418
    Location:
    Eastern Pa
    Let's visit that in Genesis. These are the promises given to Abraham, then Isaac and Jacob.

    Genesis 12:1-3: A promise of a great nation, a great name, and blessings.
    Genesis 13:15-17: A promised land, and many physical descendants.
    Genesis 15: 5: A promise of more descendants with emphasis on spiritual seed due to Abram's faith (there's a difference)
    Genesis 17: God tests Abram and changes his name to Abraham, from exalted father to the father of many nations. He now is the father of many nations coming from him and many Kings. This is an EVERLASTING COVENANT not nullified by disobedience.
    Genesis 22: This gets even better when God said, "By myself have I swore..." meaning this is one-sided at this point. It's God's irrevocable promise which included seed as the stars of heaven (spiritual descendants), and sand upon the seashore (earthly seed), militarily mighty since they possess the gate of their enemies, and of course, the promise of Christ "seed" singular as Paul pointed out. So, since these are all part of the promise, if we believe in Christ, we believe the rest otherwise Christ goes out the window by default.

    These same promises are reiterated to Isaac and Jacob but one of my favorite is Genesis 35:10-12. It's clear and to the point... not allegory.

    So what so we have here?
    A nation
    a great name
    A company of nations
    Kings
    many descendants
    blessings (I'll elaborate on what "blessings" mean shortly)
    might and power
    a specific land
    Christ (the spiritual component)
    this covenant with these people is forever

    Then..... when Jacob is on his deathbed, he does something odd. He SPLITS the promises. In Genesis 48:5 he adopts Ephraim and Manasseh, Joseph's sons as his. He said, "....bless the lads and let my NAME (Israel) be named on them, and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth." Jacob then said, "(Manasseh shall be a great people, but his younger brother (Ephraim) shall be greater, as he will become a multitude of nations." That sounds like everything promised the patriarchs except....

    Genesis 49:10: The SCEPTRE shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet until Shiloh come", i.e. continuous and uninterrupted rule of Judahite Kings until Christ's second coming. That's the straightforward prophecy. So we see here that Judah obtained the right to rule part of the promises, but the rest (of the birthright) looks like they went to the sons of Joseph.

    AS for birthright blessings, read Genesis 49:22-26 one of the most eloquent blessings I heard. That's what "blessings" are. Joseph ran over the wall has his population size would increase causing the need to colonize.

    Yes, I do believe that the USA fulfills Manasseh's portion becoming a since great people, or nation. Ephraim politically I believe is the Commonwealth of nations. But that's the political boundaries formed by these people Manasseh and Ephraim respectively. There's nothing I can see that does not allow for peoples of other tribes to live in various political territories given they would be all over the earth. I believe, for example, that many people of the south come from Ephraim, and historically they had allegiance to Great Britain. The battle flag controversy is just one more of many assaults and hatred against these nations, in which the bible prophesied would be the start of their downfall in the end times. But it looks suspiciously similar to the Union Jack.

    So what does the USA fulfill? Those promises I enumerated and the "great people" part.
     
  9. dirtfarmer

    dirtfarmer Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2016
    Messages:
    1,575
    Location:
    Loganville Ga
    hello tim-from-pa, dirtfarmer here

    There is a lot in this post. I will study and compare with other scriptures. I am not convinced that the USA is part of this blessing and promise. It seems as if you have studied a great deal on this subject.
     
  10. tim-from-pa

    tim-from-pa Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,418
    Location:
    Eastern Pa
    I have. I once had a web site that went into great detail on this. As a clue to USA, Britain, etc, as being the tribes of Israel, one has to look into secular history as to the migrations of captive Israel and they tended to migrate that direction. Isaiah 49 describes them as coming back from the northwest (of Israel). Historians call these the "lost ten tribes of Israel" who never returned to the land. Only Judah, Benjamin and a few Levites did (Ezra 10:7-9) as Ezra called ALL those of the captivity, and only those two tribes are named. That's just history and as such is a historical doctrine. AS to where Israel migrated is where historians and theologians disagree, and hence they almost forget about them despite the great and critical promises to them. Indeed, they are present somewhere as end time prophecies declare all 12 tribes present (not just the 2 tribes of the Jews). While no serious historian or person denies the Jews are not all 12 tribes and that there's 10 lost tribes, the issue is "who did they become?" Prophetic descriptions foretell of a people of immense size and blessings AFTER an initial punishment and captivity (the details which I will spare). In the time of the end, they will be punished again before Christ reunites them, i,e. captivity, killed by the sword and plagues. Not good but as Jeremiah 30 says of Jacob, "He will be saved out of it" and the remaining unconverted people will see Christ in reality, not the way he was presented by religious establishments. This takes place just before and at the Second Coming. This sort of answers the reason the USA, Great Britain, some of NW Europe and Jewish Israel were historically somewhat on the same page and sympathetic of each other when other nations hated the Jews. In these end times, there's more conflicts even between them as more godless ideologies come on the scene, but the bible addresses that and in the end this will disappear.
     
  11. Free

    Free Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,190
    Location:
    AB, Canada
  12. brother Paul

    brother Paul Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2014
    Messages:
    1,277
    Christian:
    Yes
    No! It is correct according to the scriptures to call the 1st day "the Lord's Day". Sunday or a Day of the Sun had absolutely NOTHING to do with it and such a concept was not even part of their frame of reference.
     
  13. tim-from-pa

    tim-from-pa Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,418
    Location:
    Eastern Pa
    I agree. Sorry. I did not realize this would explode out to this many questions about Israel and I do not want to hijack the thread. Dirt Farmer: If there are any more questions (or if anyone else wants to make comments) start a thread and alert me.
     
    Free likes this.

Share This Page