The "plain words of Scripture"

[Jethro Bodine]

There is no guarantee in the NT that if we pray for the Holy Spirit's guidance, which we should do in studying Scripture, that we will come to the truth of a matter or of a verse or passage.

Somebody, somewhere in the body of Christ has the truth. Whether or not you personally receive the revelation of that truth without aid of someone else may be in doubt, but you will hear it from someone sooner or later if you keep an open, humble, undivided, pure heart. Each of us believers has the ability to eventually discern right teaching from wrong when we do hear it. The problem (among other things) is in our stubborn indoctrinations that hinder that discernment. Indoctrinations caused mainly by arrogant, spirit-less false teachers.

 

[FreeGrace]

And once again the concept of 'context' gets completely and utterly ignored.

Nothing is ignored. And when plain words are used in any verse, the context does not change the meaning.

Paul explains to us what he means by the gifts being irrevocable right in the sentence and paragraph your unrightly divided verse comes from.

Please cite the exact verses that explains what "irrevocable gift" means then.

And it has NOTHING to do with a person believing then not believing but still retaining eternal life.

That, sir, is just an opinion. Once again.

FACT: God's gifts are irrevocable. He didn't say 'some' or 'many', or 'a few'. The statement is clear; all of them.
FACT: Eternal life is a gift of God.

Yet, some will continue to believe that eternal life can be lost, taken away, etc.

 

[FreeGrace]

6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:6-8

Is this plain enough: But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

• all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Is this hard to understand?
JLB

Not at all.

 

[FreeGrace]

One flaw is that fellowship is not mentioned anywhere in this passage.

I've explained WHY "death" here cannot refer to eternal or spiritual death. Why should anyone think otherwise?

We're all born spiritually dead. We don't spiritually die every time we sin, as your view implies. That makes no sense.

Why can't loss of fellowship by means of sin be called 'death'? Please explain.

 

[FreeGrace]

I am not sure if you understand you quoted your own quote, maybe thinking I quoted it? Regardless, I actually agree and disagree with the OP.

Confused, I see.

 

[Nathan]

I am sorry that you feel Jesus telling His disciples that they would be expelled from the synagogue and that they would be guided into all the truth they could not bear at that time applies to you now. It doesn't apply to you in verse 13 any more than verse 2 applies to you.

Funny thing is, you cannot say it does not apply to me - you can only say it does not apply to you.

 

[Nathan]

No one is arguing that "He was not intending for us to know the same truths." Of course we receive the same Spirit. You asked previously and my answer has not changed. And of course they were to pass on the same truths, which have not changed--that is why we have the Bible in the first place. The writings of the NT are the result of the disciples being guided into all the truth of those things which at that time they could not bear.

There is no guarantee in the NT that if we pray for the Holy Spirit's guidance, which we should do in studying Scripture, that we will come to the truth of a matter or of a verse or passage.

The problem with this position is that there are, and have been, thousands upon thousands of believers, even pastors and theologians, who have truly wanted to know the truth of Scripture and have prayed for the truth to be known, yet they disagree with each other at various points. That alone tells me that John 16:13 doesn't say what you and many others make it say.

This post is somewhat confusing. If God intends for us to know the same truth, why do we doubt He will give it to us? That's somewhat rhetorical, because I know that doubt comes from lack of belief.

I am literally dumbfounded that you would say there is no guarantee in the NT that if we seek the Holy Spirits guidance that He will not show us the truth. He will not tell us a lie, so that only leaves one other option and that is He will not tell us anything. So how is it, that we are told to seek the truth - and yet you would say when we do we will not find? That is directly opposed to Jesus teaching.

Mat 7:7
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

I don't see a "maybe" or "sometimes" in there. Do you?

You see the result of the problem, not the problem itself. The problem is, just as you see, you have no idea if they truly wanted to know - and if when they were shown the truth, that they accepted it. Sometimes we are shown the truth and we discount it. I have done it before.

Pride is a dangerous things. You saying that because people disagree, after supposedly seeking the truth from God, and then supposedly applying the truth rightly - is putting your observation above what God says. I would say its easier to see that these people either were not seeking the truth, or when shown it they disregarded it. God cannot lie - if Jesus said when we seek that we will find, and if we knock it will be opened - then we have to believe that or not. I believe it - pride says 'it may or may not happen'.

Jesus clearly prays to the Father on our account in the following chapter. Just because it is a different chapter number does not mean that we are talking about a different time period. Jesus was clearly saying He wanted us to know the same truth they did in order that we could become one, just as He and the Father are one.

 

[Nathan]

Confused, I see.

Very.

 

[chessman]

you cannot say it does not apply to me

Sure I can. The passage is Jesus telling His disciples that they will be outcasts from the synagogue and the Spirit of truth will guide His disciples in all the truth.

I just proved it didn't apply to you as you admitted you have never even been to a synagogue. Poof. Plain and simple and understandable.

John 16:2, 13 (NASB) They will make you [His disciples] outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. ... But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.​

Here's another way I can show that the Holy Spirit has not guided you in all truth.

What day and hour is Christ's return according to you?

Or:
Was Paul taken up to the third Heaven in the body?

2 Corinthians 12:2 (NASB) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.​

And the list goes on...

 

[Nathan]

Sure I can. The passage is Jesus telling His disciples that they will be outcasts from the synagogue and the Spirit of truth will guide His disciples in all the truth.

I just proved it didn't apply to you as you admitted you have never even been to a synagogue. Poof. Plain and simple and understandable.

John 16:2, 13 (NASB) They will make you [His disciples] outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. ... But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.​

Here's another way I can show that the Holy Spirit has not guided you in all truth.

What day and hour is Christ's return according to you?

Or:
Was Paul taken up to the third Heaven in the body?

2 Corinthians 12:2 (NASB) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.​

And the list goes on...

Your grasping straws now. Your trying to prove the Holy Spirit cannot guide me into all truth, based on the fact I have no knowledge of Christ's return or Paul's encounter? None of the disciples did......... Maybe you do not understand what truth is?

You have not proved anything but your lack of faith. You cannot tell someone else that it is impossible for them - very pompous. You only prove that you do not believe it is possible. You neglect to see that Jesus prayed for ALL who would believe - at the same time He was talking about the Spirit leading them, and you also neglect to believe that Jesus meant what He said in Matthew 7:7.

I have to say, it is kind of scary to think a person who claims to have the Spirit of the Living God in them can deny His power. I have seen this over and over with people who claim to be believers. It dumbfounds me to think how someone can believe God forgives them of their sins, and will resurrect them from the dead - but cannot guide them into all truth.

Psa 145:17-19
The LORD is righteous in all his ways
and kind in all his works.

The LORD is near to all who call on him,
to all who call on him in truth.

He fulfills the desire of those who fear him;
he also hears their cry and saves them.


1Ti 2:1-4
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God does not force the truth on us, but He desires us to have it. I want to pray that you will accept this.

 

[Jim Parker]

What one shouldn't do is use it as a defense for one's doctrines.

Why not?
In "my doctrine" there is a hell in which people, after their death, may find themselves conscious and experiencing torment..
That parable describes that state.
Therefore, it is useful in the defense of a doctrine of a state of consciousness, experiencing torment in what we call "hell."

iakov the fool

 

[chessman]

Maybe you do not understand what truth is?

Sure I do. The truth is, Jesus told His disciples that the Spirit would disclose to them all the truth they could not bear (not you or me). And the Spirit would disclose to them (not you or me) what He hears and what is to come.

John 16:13 (NASB) But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. ​

You have not proved anything but your lack of faith.

Oh, I have faith.

You neglect to see that Jesus prayed for ALL who would believe

Actually, I've known for some time that the truth is Jesus prayed for all (not some) whom the Father had given Him would be given eternal life. Irrevocably so.

I have to say, it is kind of scary to think a person who claims to have the Spirit of the Living God in them can deny His power.

Who's denying the power of the Holy Spirit or Jesus' prayer? Certainly not me.

 

[Nathan]

Sure I do. The truth is, Jesus told His disciples that the Spirit would disclose to them all the truth they could not bear (not you or me). And the Spirit would disclose to them (not you or me) what He hears and what is to come.

John 16:13 (NASB) But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. ​

Oh, I have faith.


Actually, I've known for some time that the truth is Jesus prayed for all (not some) whom the Father had given Him would be given eternal life. Irrevocably so.


Who's denying the power of the Holy Spirit or Jesus' prayer? Certainly not me.

I was not asking about 'a' truth, I was asking about 'the' truth.

I think you are taking liberty with your translation. Jesus said they were not able to bear them at that time - ergo the need for the Spirit to come and lead them after. No one can bear the entirety of God's truth at one time - that is why we are led into it.

You say you have faith, but yet you seem to deny the power of the Spirit of God to lead us into all truth. That is not faith.

Tell me plainly - Do you believe the Spirit of God can lead a believer into all truth?

 

[WIP]

Not necessarily directed toward the last post. Let's not side track this discussion into another OSAS vs OSNAS thread. We've had plenty of those.

 

[chessman]

Do you believe the Spirit of God can lead a believer into all truth?

Yes.

And furthermore He will, one day, lead all believers into all truth. Just not yet.

The truth is, the Holy Spirit did lead John into the truth of what's to come. Verifying Jesus' word in John 16:13 to him.

Revelation 22:6 (NASB) And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.​

Let me ask you plainly; Do you think John had been lead into 'all truth' by the time he recorded Revelation 22:6?

 

[Nathan]

Yes.

And furthermore He will, one day, lead all believers into all truth. Just not yet.

The truth is, the Holy Spirit did lead John into the truth of what's to come. Verifying Jesus' word in John 16:13 to him.

Revelation 22:6 (NASB) And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.​

Let me ask you plainly; Do you think John had been lead into 'all truth' by the time he recorded Revelation 22:6?

Who are you to say when He leads certain people? Do you not suppose you can only speak for yourself?

I believe John was led into all the truth he needed - and probably more than he actually wanted - when he wrote Revelation 22.

I'm simply stating that if we desire to know the truth of something, it is possible to know it.

 

[FreeGrace]

Why not?

The OP shows why. Even Jesus' own disciples didn't understand his figures of speech, and were relieved when He used plain language instead of figures of speech.

In "my doctrine" there is a hell in which people, after their death, may find themselves conscious and experiencing torment..
That parable describes that state.

It isn't a parable. Names are named. No names in parables.

Therefore, it is useful in the defense of a doctrine of a state of consciousness, experiencing torment in what we call "hell."
iakov the fool

Jesus was speaking plainly about the rich man and Lazarus and Abraham. So it's very clear.

 

[chessman]

I believe John was led into all the truth he needed - and probably more than he actually wanted - when he wrote Revelation 22.

Revelation 22:8-9 (NASB) I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he *said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.” ​

Was he led by the Holy Spirit that the truth is, it's improper to worship angels?

 

[Jim Parker]

he OP shows why. Even Jesus' own disciples didn't understand his figures of speech, and were relieved when He used plain language instead of figures of speech.

The disciples had not yet been filled with the Holy Spirit so they needed it spelled out for them.
And the disciples did not ask to have that parable explained.

It isn't a parable. Names are named. No names in parables.

Says who???

 

[Nathan]

Revelation 22:8-9 (NASB) I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he *said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.” ​

Was he led by the Holy Spirit that the truth is, it's improper to worship angels?

Yes, he was. The angel told him not to. He believed, then stopped.

I think you trying to stretch this too far. I've never said the Holy Spirit instantly places every bit of truth into a believers mind.

The passage in John specifically says the Spirit would lead them.