The "plain words of Scripture"

[Jethro Bodine]

Interesting how "plain words" so often mean "the way I see it."

Or perhaps more accurately, "the way I want to see it".
It's amazing how church folk gloss right past plain passages of scripture when they don't fit their predetermined theology. Simply amazing.

 

[FreeGrace]

I showed you the metaphor for the hand and foot and eye is plainly explained right in the passage using plain words....and you agreed that it is. Since Jesus himself tells us what the metaphor represents you have no basis to dismiss the passage because Jesus used a metaphor in it.

I've never dismissed ANY passage of Scripture.

All your contentions with the passage have been addressed. There's nothing left to conclude except that Jesus is plainly warning us about little one's who believe in him going to the eternal hell because of people who cause them to stumble so as to go to that hell.

Again, none of these plain words say or even suggest that "little ones who believe in Him going to the eternal hell" because of ANYTHING.

It seems to me this passage has been sorely misread and therefore misunderstood.

Jesus was making a comparison between how much better it is in going to heaven than going to hell.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Is it your practice to perform self mutilation on your own body parts when they sin?"

It's my practice to repent and confess my sin and be forgiven, so that I will be cleansed of all unrighteousness.

So following the plain words of Matt 5 about cutting off offending body parts isn't in your practice then.

What is your practice, when you sin?
JLB

I do what the Bible says to do.

 

[FreeGrace]

Or perhaps more accurately, "the way I want to see it".
It's amazing how church folk gloss right past plain passages of scripture that don't fit their predetermined theology. Simply amazing.

There are no such "plain words" that support your ideas of security.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus was making a comparison between how much better it is in going to heaven than going to hell.

And he plainly explains that it is whether or not you cut off those who cause the stumbling that determines whether you go to heaven or go to hell:

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire." (Matthew 18:8 NASB)

You're ignoring the plainly stated condition for the better thing of going to heaven happening, and that is that the stumbling block be cut off. Remember, we're simply debating the plainness of scripture, not the subject of the passage itself. These words are very plain. It's better for believers in Christ to get rid of stumbling blocks and go to heaven instead of keeping them and going to the fiery, eternal hell. Very plain words.

 

[reba]

Wow. That is a strange question for me. Of course there is. What would make anyone think otherwise from anything I've posted??

Just wanting to make sure i understand , and that is what i thought you believed...

 

[JLB]

I do what the Bible says to do.

The bible says a lot of things.

What do you do when you sin?

I answered your question, plainly, with scripture that teaches us what to do when we sin.

It's my practice to repent and confess my sin and be forgiven, so that I will be cleansed of all unrighteousness.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

What is your practice that you do when you sin.

Please post the scripture, for what you believe.



JLB

 

[JLB]

So following the plain words of Matt 5 about cutting off offending body parts isn't in your practice then.

Here is what Matthew 5 says:

And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.

14 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

31 “Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:1-48

Was there a specific verse in Matthew 5, you are referring to?




JLB

 

[JLB]

Every side of every debate on God's Word claims to use "the plain words of Scripture".

If this were true, then every opposing position on debate would be correct, and the Bible would be rendered meaningless, and therefore, useless. It would be akin to Paul's view that if the resurrection didn't happen, then our faith is vain and "we of all men are to be most pitied".

However, we know that the Bible is God's inerrant Word to mankind. It is perfect and not contradicted in any way. So, how do we really know how to understand what are the "plain words of Scripture" and what isn't.

First, some examples to demonstrate how Scripture isn't really being paid attention to.

Calvinists claim that Christ died only for the elect. Yet there are no verses that state this plainly. Their prime defense is the use of verses about Christ dying for "many". They take the English word to mean "less than all". Yet, the Bible very plainly says that Christ died for all in these verses: 2 Cor 5:14,15 and Heb 2:9. But, the Greek word is "polloi", from which we get "hoi polloi", which means "the masses". iow, Christ died for the masses, not "less than everyone" or "less than all".

On the Arminian side, the argument for loss of salvation rests primarily on verses that use figures of speech or metaphors, and these are claimed to be the "plain words of Scripture". such as John 15:1-6. So, let's see what the Bible says about clear and plain speech.

This isn't really difficult at all. The Bible even tells us how to know the difference.

Consider John 11:3-6 -
3So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one you love is sick.”
4 When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.”
5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.
6 So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days,

Then this:
11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.”
13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural (or literal) sleep.
14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead

iow, Jesus used a figure of speech and His disciples misunderstood what He was saying to them. Only when He spoke plainly did they finally understand.

John 10:6 - Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.

John 16:25 - "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. "

John 16:29-32
29 Then Jesus' disciples said, "Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30 Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God." 31 "You believe at last!" Jesus answered.

So, what have we learned from Scripture? When "figures of speech" or metaphors are used, there is a failure to understand what Jesus is saying. But when He spoke plainly, there was understanding.

So, hopefully, this will help people to error by claiming Scripture with figures of speech or metaphors are "the plain words of Scripture".

Only when Scripture uses actual "clear and plain" words, meaning WITHOUT figures of speech, can one claim to be quoting the "plain words of Scripture".

With this in mind, one can readily see whether any side of any debate on what the Bible teaches has the truth which is understandable.

Jesus spoke truth in figures of speech, but the message wasn't understood. But when He spoke truth in literal and clear words, without figures of speech, there was understanding.

Let the debater beware. ;)

These plain words:

Do you believe those who practice sorcery, will not inherit the kingdom of God, which refers to the lake of fire?

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

And he plainly explains that it is whether or not you cut off those who cause the stumbling that determines whether you go to heaven or go to hell:

No, He didn't "explain" that. He was simply making a contrast between heaven and hell. He said nothing about what causes one to go to either.

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire." (Matthew 18:8 NASB)

Still curious; is your practice to perform self mutilation when one of your body parts sins? Being such a "plain words" kind of guy.

You're ignoring the plainly stated condition for the better thing of going to heaven happening, and that is that the stumbling block be cut off. Remember, we're simply debating the plainness of scripture, not the subject of the passage itself.

I deal with the whole package. The way Scripture comes.

These words are very plain. It's better for believers in Christ to get rid of stumbling blocks and go to heaven instead of keeping them and going to the fiery, eternal hell. Very plain words.

Heaven is always better than hell. And the real stumbling block of going to heaven is lack of trusting what Jesus did for you.

 

[FreeGrace]

Just wanting to make sure i understand , and that is what i thought you believed...

 

[FreeGrace]

The bible says a lot of things.

Sure does.

What do you do when you sin?

What 1 John 1:9 says to do.

I answered your question, plainly, with scripture that teaches us what to do when we sin.

As have I.

What is your practice that you do when you sin.

I don't practice. I confess.

Please post the scripture, for what you believe.

1 John 1:9

Is your practice to perform self mutilation, as Jesus spoke of in Matt 5?

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is what Matthew 5 says:
27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

Was there a specific verse in Matthew 5, you are referring to?

Just these. Have you literally obeyed these plain words?

 

[FreeGrace]

These plain words:

Do you believe those who practice sorcery, will not inherit the kingdom of God, which refers to the lake of fire?

I believe that believers who practice sorcery will not inherit the kingdom of God, which DOES NOT refer to the lake of fire.

But unbelievers who practice sorcery will neither inherit the kingdom of God, nor even enter the kingdom of God. They will be cast into the lake of fire.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

See?

 

[reba]

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

Mat_5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

 

[th1b.taylor]

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

Mat_5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

AMEN!

 

[Free]

It seems as though this entire thread has proven the OP wrong, or at least half wrong.

 

[FreeGrace]

It seems as though this entire thread has proven the OP wrong, or at least half wrong.

How would it seem like that?

 

[Free]

How would it seem like that?

All the disagreement about what the Bible is saying. It shows that plain words don't make a whole lot of difference to understanding what is being said.

 

[th1b.taylor]

How would it seem like that?

If I read the same Bible version I will learn seven different Life Applications from the same scripture. We need to cease the conflict, those of us under the Spirit, need to begin to see how things fit together. First, we need to learn submission.