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The Process Of Justification
- Thread starter dadof10
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i really asked for that ... 
Jethro Bodine
Member
I let the air out of your argument. If you don't think so, please answer the question I asked before and we'll continue the discussion. (I answered yours when you asked.) Here it is again:
According to the passage below, when will Peter "have no part with me (Jesus)", 1) when he gets his feet dirty, or 2) if/when he refuses to have his feet washed? Be honest. God is watching.
"5Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded. 6So He came to Simon Peter. He said to Him, “Lord, do You wash my feet?”7Jesus answered and said to him, “What I do you do not realize now, but you will understand hereafter.”8Peter said to Him, “Never shall You wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.” 9Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.”10Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.”" (John 13:5-11 NASB)
dadof10
Member
So, you want me to "engage" on the verses you posted and I'm ignoring them...Hummm. Does this sound at all familiar? When you are ready to "engage" on Heb. 11:4-8, let me know. I posted the OP on Sept. 30 and, after repeated attempts, you still haven't mentioned one word on it. In case you've forgotten, it's Heb. 11:4-8. We have been talking about Jn. 13 for about two weeks and it's gotten pretty embarrassing. Two weeks on the verses you posted, not one word on the verses I posted, and you are "not letting me off the hook"? A little imbalanced, don't you think? There has been documented contradiction after contradiction from you and I would prefer to move on instead of just harp on them. I'm sure, in time, you'll look back on this and regret you posted these verses, but for now, it's time to move on. Hebrews 11, please...I let the air out of your argument. If you don't think so, please answer the question I asked before and we'll continue the discussion. (I answered yours when you asked.) Here it is again:
According to the passage below, when will Peter "have no part with me (Jesus)", 1) when he gets his feet dirty, or 2) if/when he refuses to have his feet washed? Be honest. God is watching.
"5Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded. 6So He came to Simon Peter. He said to Him, “Lord, do You wash my feet?”7Jesus answered and said to him, “What I do you do not realize now, but you will understand hereafter.”8Peter said to Him, “Never shall You wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.” 9Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.”10Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.”" (John 13:5-11 NASB)
Jethro Bodine
Member
If you'll remember you rejected both of my replies to your argument about Hebrews 11. Which is fine, you don't have to agree with what I said, but to say I didn't address it would be a lie. I have no problem talking about it again but I don't want to let you off the hook about this subject so I'm purposely not letting you distract from the point we're presently on any more than you are already doing even within this particular point, because, frankly, I'm going in for the kill.
God as my witness, I'm tempted to drop a few lines about these other fronts you want to re-open, but I'm purposely keeping focused here to go for the kill, because I know if I give you enough stuff to talk about outside of this particular point you will suddenly get preoccupied and not finish this part of the discussion. You know how it is, the good guy let's the bad guy get away thinking he won't be any more trouble later and then, well, you know what happens. Sorry, not this time.
I'm still smiling.
Remember, this is just doctrine we're talking about here. It's nothing personal. Hope you got a great turkey day lined up.
Jethro Bodine
Member
No, you can not just move on. You say I'm in contradiction. You have repeatedly not understood my explanations of my doctrine so I asked a simple question that, if you'll answer it, will force you to see that I'm in no contradiction at all. Here it is again:
According to the passage below, when will Peter "have no part with me (Jesus)", 1) when he gets his feet dirty, or 2) if/when he refuses to have his feet washed? Be honest. God is watching.
"5Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded. 6So He came to Simon Peter. He said to Him, “Lord, do You wash my feet?”7Jesus answered and said to him, “What I do you do not realize now, but you will understand hereafter.”8Peter said to Him, “Never shall You wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.” 9Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.”10Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.”" (John 13:5-11 NASB)
dadof10
Member
First of all, I said you haven't addressed Heb. 11:4-8. You have addressed other verses in Hebrews 11, but have not said one solitary word about vs.4-8, which is what the OP is based upon. Secondly, calling someone a liar is personal...If you'll remember you rejected both of my replies to your argument about Hebrews 11. Which is fine, you don't have to agree with what I said, but to say I didn't address it would be a lie. I have no problem talking about it again but I don't want to let you off the hook about this subject so I'm purposely not letting you distract from the point we're presently on any more than you are already doing even within this particular point, because, frankly, I'm going in for the kill.
God as my witness, I'm tempted to drop a few lines about these other fronts you want to re-open, but I'm purposely keeping focused here to go for the kill, because I know if I give you enough stuff to talk about outside of this particular point you will suddenly get preoccupied and not finish this part of the discussion. You know how it is, the good guy let's the bad guy get away thinking he won't be any more trouble later and then, well, you know what happens. Sorry, not this time.
I'm still smiling.
Jethro Bodine
Member
You misunderstood what I did say about it. Besides not wanting to distract from John 13:5-11, if I jump back into Hebrews 11 (even now I'm biting my tongue) I'll have to untwist your misunderstanding of my argument. I'm doing that now with John 13.
All you need to do is answer my question, like I answered yours, and we can continue the discussion.
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Who decided that washing feet has to do with the removal of daily sins?
Jesus gave an example to His disciples, that the greater among them, was to serve to serve the rest.
Does this mean Peter was to remove the daily sins from the rest, in the future?
If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you. 16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. 17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them. John 13:14-17
I believe Jesus was being an example to His disciples, that would serve them later, when the temptation for pride was to come upon them, because of the authority and power they would have.
We know the false Church had set up a heirarchy whereby the "Church leadership" are served by the people.
JLB
Jesus gave an example to His disciples, that the greater among them, was to serve to serve the rest.
Does this mean Peter was to remove the daily sins from the rest, in the future?
If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you. 16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. 17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them. John 13:14-17
I believe Jesus was being an example to His disciples, that would serve them later, when the temptation for pride was to come upon them, because of the authority and power they would have.
We know the false Church had set up a heirarchy whereby the "Church leadership" are served by the people.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
As you know water is a Biblical metaphor for purification, specifically, purification from sin. We see that all through the scriptures. Especially in the matter of our being forgiven our sins at the moment of our justification/salvation:
"5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:5-7 NASB)
But also afterward in the forgiveness of our sins in our daily living:
"9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. " (1 John 1:9 NASB)
In John 13:5-11, rebirth is signified in the body that Jesus said is completely clean, while the washing of the dirty feet signify the sin we have in our now completely clean selves--completely clean selves that do not need to be re-washed, despite the stain of our dirty feet. We were justified by his grace in the washing of rebirth (see above) one time, and as Jesus illustration in John 13 shows us, doesn't have to be repeated (thus, no 'process' of justification). What has to be repeated is the cleansing of unrighteousness symbolized in the dirty feet. That is what is in process, as any honest saint will testify.
It means we are to forgive the sins of our fellow servants and remove them in that sense. Service to God is epitomized and summarized in our forgiveness of the sins of others against us. Christ, our Master, did that for us first. He commands that we in turn do what he did for us to others, and do it as their servants, not as their Lords, following in the example of Christ himself who died as a servant on our behalf for the sake of our sins even though he is Lord of All.
"when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God. 21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 22 WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; 23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." (1 Peter 2:20-24 NASB italics and capitals in original, bold mine)
"12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you." (Colossians 3:12-13 NASB)
See, when you forgive someone who is sinning against you and you endure it patiently, doing good thing for them, all symbolized in foot washing, you are bearing the sins of others in similar fashion to how Christ bore your sins in his body so that you could be healed.
15 “For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you." (John 13:15 NASB)
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All well and good.
The context of John 13 -
12 So when He had washed their feet, taken His garments, and sat down again, He said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you? 13 You call Me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet.15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.
So now who is responsible for Justifying believers?
Peter? the Pastor?
We are responsible for cleansing ourselves of sins, by confessing our sins, and being forgiven.
By repenting and being forgiven.
JLB
All well and good.
However, you have made these passages about justification, in the thread called, "The Process of Justification".
So by your answer, you are claiming that now it's believers who justify other believers, because they lose their justification, due to sin.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
The illustration is about the washing of the feet, not the whole body.
That's the half of the debt owed the Master that the servant of the Master does not/ can not write off. Only the Master can wipe the debt completely clean. The most we can do is symbolized in our forgiveness of some of the debt owed the Master:
"5“And he summoned each one of his master’s debtors, and he began saying to the first, ‘How much do you owe my master?’ 6“And he said, ‘A hundred measures of oil.’ And he said to him, ‘Take your bill, and sit down quickly and write fifty." (Luke 16:5-6 NASB)
The one in debt has to go to the Master to get the whole debt released. The complete cleansing of the debt is done by God, not his servants. The nuisance of dirty feet, we do forgive that. We're commanded to do that.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
Here Jesus talks about this power of forgiveness and how it gets recognized in heaven:
15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
18“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
19“Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20“For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.” (Matthew 18:15-20 NASB)
Your brother sins against you. You forgive him. He receives it. Boom! God recognizes it as done. The debt is released. The offenders relationship with God itself has to be sorted out between him and God. That's the difference between the washing of one's feet and the washing of their whole body. The washing of one's whole body is a one time good deal. It doesn't have to be repeated. The foot washing part....yeah, that has to be repeated....over and over again.
15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
18“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
19“Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20“For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.” (Matthew 18:15-20 NASB)
Your brother sins against you. You forgive him. He receives it. Boom! God recognizes it as done. The debt is released. The offenders relationship with God itself has to be sorted out between him and God. That's the difference between the washing of one's feet and the washing of their whole body. The washing of one's whole body is a one time good deal. It doesn't have to be repeated. The foot washing part....yeah, that has to be repeated....over and over again.
Yes.
Who now is responsible for washing feet, according to Jesus' example. Literal foot washing.
Not justification.
???
How do you just jump from Jesus giving an example of literally washing His disciples feet, to another scripture about forgiveness.
16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. 17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them. John 13:16-17
...blessed are you if you do them.
Jesus wants Peter to follow His example of serving.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
The "is completely clean" of the whole body of the believer (John 13:10) is the justification part (Titus 3:5-7)--the part that does not have to be done again, despite the stain of dirty feet. That justification that the believer receives in the washing of his whole body (Titus 3:5-7) does not have to be repeated because you never lose it. The only way you can lose it is if you stop coming to Christ for the forgiveness of your dirty feet. That is what Hebrews 10:26 is talking about. But for the believer who continually seeks the cleansing of his feet, he always has the "is completely clean", and the "you are clean" of his justification he received at rebirth. He only needs his feet washed from that point on.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes, the power of forgiveness is wonderful.
Now, Back to John 13, and the example Jesus gave about humility.
If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet.15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. 17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them. John 13:14-17
If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. For I have given you an example.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes, in the bearing of others sins, patiently and with compassion and kindness and humility. Reread the passages in my earlier post.
This is how you 'wash the feet' of others in humility:
"12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you." (Colossians 3:12-13 NASB)
If all the church is doing is washing literal dirty feet and not doing the above they have completely missed Christ's point. Completely.
Jesus gave His disciples an example of Humility, to show how the greatest in the kingdom serves the others.
This was an example for them to follow.
12 So when He had washed their feet, taken His garments, and sat down again, He said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you? 13 You call Me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet.15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. 17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them. John 13:12-17
JLB