The rapture of the Church

[golfjack]

In describing the last days Jesus likened the period to that of the days of Noah ( Matt. 24:37-39), or to the wickedness of the days of Sodom ( Luke 17:28-32).

Jesus also likened His people at His coming to ten virgins who went forth to meet the bridegroom. One-half of their number had oil in their vessels; the other half had not. Consequently, when the bridegroom came only half of them were ready. Christ could not recognize them as members of the bridal party, although He did not say that He never knew them. The oil clearly typifies the presence of the Holy Spirit. While the unprepared went to treplenish their supply the bridegroom came and the door was shut:

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with Him to the marriage: and the door was shut ( Matt. 25:10).

I believe this parable clearly portrays the rapture of that part of the Church which is ready. It is a warning for all to be alert that when we hear the call of the Bridegroom when He comes, we shall be ready to go forth to meet Him. Jesus shows that for His people to be ready they must give themselves to much prayer ( Luke 21:34-36).

The words worthy to escape all these things is significant. Not all of God's people will be ready when the rapture takes place. One shall be taken, and the other left.

This is how I see it, and suggest that we as believers must always be ready to pray, go to church, study the Word, and look forward for the rapture. Also, use 1 John 1:9 to confess any unconfesed sins. We need to praise and worship the Lord, and carry our cross daily. I do not know when, but suspect the rapture will take place very soon.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[SputnikBoy]

In describing the last days Jesus likened the period to that of the days of Noah ( Matt. 24:37-39), or to the wickedness of the days of Sodom ( Luke 17:28-32).

Jesus also likened His people at His coming to ten virgins who went forth to meet the bridegroom. One-half of their number had oil in their vessels; the other half had not. Consequently, when the bridegroom came only half of them were ready. Christ could not recognize them as members of the bridal party, although He did not say that He never knew them. The oil clearly typifies the presence of the Holy Spirit. While the unprepared went to treplenish their supply the bridegroom came and the door was shut:

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with Him to the marriage: and the door was shut ( Matt. 25:10).

I believe this parable clearly portrays the rapture of that part of the Church which is ready. It is a warning for all to be alert that when we hear the call of the Bridegroom when He comes, we shall be ready to go forth to meet Him. Jesus shows that for His people to be ready they must give themselves to much prayer ( Luke 21:34-36).

The words worthy to escape all these things is significant. Not all of God's people will be ready when the rapture takes place. One shall be taken, and the other left.

This is how I see it, and suggest that we as believers must always be ready to pray, go to church, study the Word, and look forward for the rapture. Also, use 1 John 1:9 to confess any unconfesed sins. We need to praise and worship the Lord, and carry our cross daily. I do not know when, but suspect the rapture will take place very soon.

The 'rapture' being that event when Jesus returns ....or before ...?

 

[BenJasher]

That "rapture" being a valid biblical doctrine, or a figment of some wannabe theologian's imagination?

 

[scorpia]

The words worthy to escape all these things is significant. Not all of God's people will be ready when the rapture takes place.

The sad fact in here golfjack is that the Lord teaches today that there is no "RAPTURE" whatsoever that will come to take the true believers of the Lord out of the GREAT TRIBULATION which by now is already existing starting from the fall down of the Twin Towers in New York or the 9/11 tragedy. The Lord said that the fall down of the twin towers is the 666th tragedy that gave way to the occurence of the GREAT TRIBULATION in which we are all now in. Have you heard of any RAPTURE that took place since the fall of the said towers? But watch for yourself the different tragedies that are now occurring in our time especially their time intervals and the gravity by which how the lie/s is/are being portrayed today as the TRUTH in all the faces of the globe.

[quote:872bd]One shall be taken, and the other left.

The Lord God Jesus Christ said that this one only meant that during the GREAT TRIBULATION PERIOD, one person will call on and come to Him and put all his trust in the Lord God and he will have his salvation while the other one will not and will not be saved.

This is how I see it, and suggest that we as believers must always be ready to pray, go to church, study the Word, and look forward for the rapture.

Much better if we will call on and come to God and put all ourselves in the custody and care of God himself as our only Good Pastor and Teacher and for sure, the LOrd will come and sup with us even while we are still living in this world as it will be the same as in the days of the biblical times.

Also, use 1 John 1:9 to confess any unconfesed sins. We need to praise and worship the Lord, and carry our cross daily. I do not know when, but suspect the rapture will take place very soon.

[/quote:872bd]
Simply come to God and have God as our TEacher and Leader like what we can see and read from the bible. The bible was written for us to come to God and study and learn from God himself because He, the Lord God is the only Teacher of the whole mankind.

 

[SputnikBoy]

There is no 'rapture' by that definition as such. There will be a RESURRECTION at the coming of Jesus Christ and NOT BEFORE. That is when the graves will open and the righteous will be raised to IMMORTALITY.

 

[unred typo]

Sputnikboy wrote:There is no 'rapture' by that definition as such. There will be a RESURRECTION at the coming of Jesus Christ and NOT BEFORE. That is when the graves will open and the righteous will be raised to IMMORTALITY.


Scorpia wrote:The sad fact in here golfjack is that the Lord teaches today that there is no "RAPTURE" whatsoever that will come to take the true believers of the Lord out of the GREAT TRIBULATION which by now is already existing starting from the fall down of the Twin Towers in New York or the 9/11 tragedy. The Lord said that the fall down of the twin towers is the 666th tragedy that gave way to the occurence of the GREAT TRIBULATION in which we are all now in.


I’m afraid you both are right about the rapture that all these churches are counting on to whisk them out of harm’s way. I do wonder about the time of tribulation that scorpia suggests beginning with the 9-11 tragedy. That make it that we are five years into the tribulation and we only have two years left. Where is the anti-Christ, scorpia? :-?

 

[D46]

There WILL be a rapture of the church and it will occur before the Tribulation period. Some of these suggestions here are out in left field. :-?

 

[MrVersatile48]

God's eternal Word is in the Bible, 'where Jesus warns that many will come in my name.....& I will say, 'depart from Me: I never knew you'

The most reassuring promise of instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus, in good time, before the time of God's wrath, is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11

The Coming of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5 (New International Version)

1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

5You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.


The Great Tribulation starts in Revelation 6:8 - where 25% of mankind die by war, famine, pestilence & the wild beasts of Earth - that is 500 times the scale of 9/11 & Armageddon - Revelation 16-19 & Joel 3 & Zechariah 14 - is about 2000 times it

Revelation 6:8 (New International Version)


8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

3000 NYC folk are not 25% of 6.5 billion

Jesus promised in Matt 24 that this 'fig tree' generation - this climax generation of all history - will be 'cut short' by the Rapture - 'otherwise, no-one would be left alive'

The Genesis 6 wrath of God..

5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earthâ€â€men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the airâ€â€for I am grieved that I have made them."

..is echoed in 2 Peter 3

3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[a]

11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.



& Jesus will soon 'tread the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God'

"We (who love Jesus) are not destined to go through the time of wrath, but to be saved...therefore encourage each other with these words"

God bless!

Ian

 

[unred typo]

MrVersatile48 wrote: The most reassuring promise of instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus, in good time, before the time of God's wrath, is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11.…..
"We (who love Jesus) are not destined to go through the time of wrath, but to be saved...therefore encourage each other with these words"

It would be more reassuring if it were there, Ian. Here’s some verses that put it in chronological order. Read ‘em and weep:

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. :o

 

[Drew]

Here is the position of British theologian NT Wright.

Copied from http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_BR_F ... apture.htm

The American obsession with the second coming of Jesus  especially with distorted interpretations of it  continues unabated. Seen from my side of the Atlantic, the phenomenal success of the Left Behind books appears puzzling, even bizarre[1]. Few in the U.K. hold the belief on which the popular series of novels is based: that there will be a literal “rapture†in which believers will be snatched up to heaven, leaving empty cars crashing on freeways and kids coming home from school only to find that their parents have been taken to be with Jesus while they have been “left behind.†This pseudo-theological version of Home Alone has reportedly frightened many children into some kind of (distorted) faith.

This dramatic end-time scenario is based (wrongly, as we shall see) on Paul’s First Letter to the Thessalonians, where he writes: “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first; then we, who are left alive, will be snatched up with them on clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord†(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

What on earth (or in heaven) did Paul mean?

It is Paul who should be credited with creating this scenario. Jesus himself, as I have argued in various books, never predicted such an event[2]. The gospel passages about “the Son of Man coming on the clouds†(Mark 13:26, 14:62, for example) are about Jesus’ vindication, his “coming†to heaven from earth. The parables about a returning king or master (for example, Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem, not about Jesus returning to earth. This, Jesus seemed to believe, was an event within space-time history, not one that would end it forever.

The Ascension of Jesus and the Second Coming are nevertheless vital Christian doctrines[3], and I don’t deny that I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God’s new creation. This is taught throughout the New Testament outside the Gospels. But this event won’t in any way resemble the Left Behind account. Understanding what will happen requires a far more sophisticated cosmology than the one in which “heaven†is somewhere up there in our universe, rather than in a different dimension, a different space-time, altogether.

The New Testament, building on ancient biblical prophecy, envisages that the creator God will remake heaven and earth entirely, affirming the goodness of the old Creation but overcoming its mortality and corruptibility (e.g., Romans 8:18-27; Revelation 21:1; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22). When that happens, Jesus will appear within the resulting new world (e.g., Colossians 3:4; 1 John 3:2).

Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21: At Jesus’ “coming†or “appearing,†those who are still alive will be “changed†or “transformed†so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imageryâ€â€from biblical and political sourcesâ€â€to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.

First, Paul echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah. The trumpet sounds, a loud voice is heard, and after a long wait Moses comes to see what’s been going on in his absence.

Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which “the people of the saints of the Most High†(that is, the “one like a son of manâ€Â) are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor, applied to Jesus in the Gospels, is now applied to Christians who are suffering persecution.

Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. Paul’s image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air†should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.

Paul’s mixed metaphors of trumpets blowing and the living being snatched into heaven to meet the Lord are not to be understood as literal truth, as the Left Behind series suggests, but as a vivid and biblically allusive description of the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.

Paul’s misunderstood metaphors present a challenge for us: How can we reuse biblical imagery, including Paul’s, so as to clarify the truth, not distort it? And how can we do so, as he did, in such a way as to subvert the political imagery of the dominant and dehumanizing empires of our world? We might begin by asking, What view of the world is sustained, even legitimized, by the Left Behind ideology? How might it be confronted and subverted by genuinely biblical thinking? For a start, is not the Left Behind mentality in thrall to a dualistic view of reality that allows people to pollute God’s world on the grounds that it’s all going to be destroyed soon? Wouldn’t this be overturned if we recaptured Paul’s wholistic vision of God’s whole creation?

 

[scorpia]

I’m afraid you both are right about the rapture that all these churches are counting on to whisk them out of harm’s way. I do wonder about the time of tribulation that scorpia suggests beginning with the 9-11 tragedy. That make it that we are five years into the tribulation and we only have two years left. Where is the anti-Christ, scorpia? :-?

Who told you that the Great Tribulation will just be for seven years? The anti-Christ will be the devil who will manifest in the flesh and he will be given a temporary power which will make many people look at him as if he were God. The so called anti-Christ will be given a specific number of years within the Great Tribulation period to temporary rule and lead the whole world and a mark (not a micro chip as many thought that it will be) will be given to every one who will be caught and his days by now is not yet come but it will in the soonest time. Meanwhile, what we have today is a "lull" moment of the Great Tribulation.

 

[BenJasher]

I am convinced that anyone who is waiting to be "raptured" has had their faith hijacked. The rapture theory, (it isn't even recognized as a doctrine) is the 2nd most harmful delusion that man has conceived of to explain what he didn't have any previous light on. (I am not allowed to discuss the 1st most dangerous delusion)

1) It promises the believer something that will never happen,

2) It stunts the growth of the believer, causing him to not ever grow up into maturity.

3) It blinds the spirit of the believer. Because his faith is attached to a false hope, he is unable, in the natural process of things, to see the truth that would not only set them free, but also force them to grow up.

4) It has left the Church full of immature babies that, instead of growing up into men, and growing into their rightful authority as Sons of God, they quibble with each other over non issues such as pre-, post- or mid-trib raptures.


Know ye not that ye shall judge angels?
Wake up you bunch of milk-toast babies!

Do you know the underlying reason for the persecution of the Early Church? It was fear. Those early believers preached a gospel that was a threat to the powers that existed at that time. The miracles produced in their midst only confirmed how dangerous they really were. They were able to take their message to the far corners of the then known world in 200 years. We can't even take the Gospel to our own city.

Today, we have no persecution on the magnitude the Early Fathers did. But neither are we a threat to anyone. The world looks at the Church today, and they see a bunch of money hungry preachers preaching to a bunch spineless, powerless sheep that doesn't even know what they really believe. The world doesn't see signs following. Therefore, they see no reason to turn from their ways or be afraid.

And the enemy of our souls knows that as long as the church is composed of children playing make believe games, arguing over the play-toys he gave them, that they will never be a threat to him or his agenda.

Ignore me if you want to. Ridicule me for saying these things if that is your way of responding. But you do these things in peril of your own souls.

 

[Zero Link]

scorpia, cmon now.. I mean you are interpreting this wayyy too deeply.

You said there is no rapture when the bible clearly speaks of it.

Who told you that the Great Tribulation will just be for seven years? The anti-Christ will be the devil who will manifest in the flesh and he will be given a temporary power which will make many people look at him as if he were God. The so called anti-Christ will be given a specific number of years within the Great Tribulation period to temporary rule and lead the whole world and a mark (not a micro chip as many thought that it will be) will be given to every one who will be caught and his days by now is not yet come but it will in the soonest time. Meanwhile, what we have today is a "lull" moment of the Great Tribulation.

Dude, WHAT.....ARE YOU......TALKING ABOUT?

You read something totally wrong there, you got this whole thing twisted.
The bible even tells us that God will cut the time short(the great tribulation) for if the time wouldn't be cut short, there will be no survivors left... So you are saying the anti-christ has the devils powers.... so just because he has the devils powers, that means he can control how he rules the world for however long he wants? Please, read the bible some more and stop over interpreting it. I understand people do that often but My goodness, you went across the line with that one.

Then, you say we are in the Great Tribulation times right now.. Who told you that? What makes you even think that? Do you see any abomination of desolation out there? Do you see any ads saying some dude performed fantastic miracles?? ORRR do you see annyyy type of peace going on in this world? No.

So that means we aren't at the Great Tribulation. Im tired of people saying we are close to the great tribulation, like its months away... you don't know when its coming, i don't know when its coming. So lets stop trying to guess if its close, or if its years away, or even something silly like (its here right now, we're in it).

And another thing, about the rapture.. alot of people just read the bible.. one part in the revelation and say ok its a done deal. If God said we shall not suffer his Wrath then that must mean we are going to be gone before then.... and God's Wrath starts right when the Mid-Point Great Tribulation(when we finally reach Daniel's 70th week)... meaning we will be gone before then. I don't know how, i don't know when.. But we will... And alot of people say we are going to stay because of the elect was mentioned.. We aren't the only elects.. He didn't say the Church, he said the elect, the jews.. the chosen ones.. which are HIS PEOPLE... they have to stay through all of it because of the sins they have done *not the ones that are with God*.. notice how it says even after Jesus Second coming to get the rest of his people, it says he will have a seal on their heads, 777 and they shall not be touched (it didn't say it exactly like that but i can't find the script right now and im half sleep *needs sleep*) but something like that.. THATS THE ELECT... Still here because they have to suffer the great trib. AND God's Wrath... as someone posted on this forum earlier.. I think it was Judy.. Well, im off to sleep

later on you all and I hope this doesn't lead off into a explicit arguement.

 

[MrVersatile48]

The eternal Word of God is inerrant & infallible - not a delusion

The instant airlift Rapture rescue - Matt 24:30-31 & 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 etc - is 'our blessed hope'...'a sure & certain hope' - not a false hope

Having trained in interdenominational evangelical Bible Colleges & movements (like OM Year Prog) I know that men have built many theological systems

& that many put their faith much more in what other men say than in God's own precious Word - 'let God be true & all men liars'

I've just put elsewhere that Jesus said, "In the world, you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer: I have overcome the world"

& thank God that the instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus will be in good time before the Great Tribulation - ('such as has never been before & never will be again)'

The most reassuring promise of instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus, in good time, before the time of God's wrath, is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11

The Coming of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5 (New International Version)

1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

5You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

I've already printed 2 Peter 3 & Revelation 21

& look what Jesus said in Matt 24 - in my post signature

God bless!

Ian

 

[Zero Link]

Also, please read

9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"
13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robesâ€â€who are they, and where did they come from?"

14I answered, "Sir, you know."

And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

14I answered, "Sir, you know."

And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This could mean 1 or 2 things, they have came out of the great tribulation(notice that he did not call them marytrs or however you say it nor did he say they were killed or any sort like that, just they came out of the great tribulation...
OR
it could mean those are the ones who didn't see God at first, until the Great Tribulation(they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb)... but either way it go that still says nothing about the Church, nowhere is it mentioned in the Great Tribulation... and i don't think God would not talk about his Churches, especially in the Great Tribulation..

btw.. to the dude that said to those who believe in the rapture, has had their faith hjacked.. well

put it this way

pre trib rapture,
post trib rapture
Pre Wrath Rapture..

be honest, all of them are the same thing.. If you extremely think about it you will come to find out all of them are the exact same thing.. But there will be a rapture.. See, the movies took it and made it into Hollywood, just like they would do other movies. But it doesn't mean its not true.. They screwed up The Omen, but it doesn't mean what the Omen is based on isn't true(about the anti-christ).

Jesus isn't making a second coming for nothing mate. Read mathews to find out.. Like i said I would get the urls and the scriptures for you but I can barely stay awake.

 

[MrVersatile48]

Pre trib & post trib are NOT the same - after the world is destroyed by fire is too late to rescue anyone: Jesus said 'cut short (by the Rapture) for the sake of the elect, otherwise no-one would be left alive'

Just time to print Matt 24 as it's 'a summary of all Bible prophecy'

Matthew 24
Signs of the End of the Age

1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Danielâ€â€let the reader understand 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowâ€â€and never to be equaled again.

22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electâ€â€if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.

27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The Day and Hour Unknown

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.
37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.
That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

 

[MrVersatile48]

Worth saying that a 1-word summary of the signs of Christ returning soon is birthpains - all kinds of natural, social & spiritual disasters that multiply, accelerate & intensify, just as we've seen since the 1948 rebirth of the 'fig tree' of Israel - serving only to bring on that Great Delivery instant airlift resue of all who love Jesus

That's why Jesus could say, 'Don't be afraid..don't be alarmed..trust in God.. trust in Me"

Timely Word 4 Today:-


Today's Scripture

I will give you the crown of life

Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 2:10b,11 NIV

__________________

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Matthew 6:19-21 KJV

__________________

No longer will you have the sun for light by day,
Nor for brightness will the moon give you light;

But you will have the LORD for an everlasting light,
And your God for your glory.

Your sun will no longer set,
Nor will your moon wane;
For you will have the LORD
for an everlasting light,
And the days of your mourning will be over.

Isaiah 60:19,20 NASB

__________________

Thanks be unto God for His wonderful gift:
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God
is the object of our faith; the only faith
that saves is faith in Him.




Read Through the Bible in a Year

November 9: Titus 1, Jeremiah 13-14, Psalm 125
Click Here for the complete schedule

Or Copy and paste this link into your browser:
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Weekly Meditation

A Humble King Riding a Donkey

"Shout and cheer, Daughter Zion!
Raise the roof, Daughter Jerusalem!
Your king is coming!
a good king who makes all things right,
a humble king riding a donkey,
a mere colt of a donkey.
I've had it with war - no more chariots in Ephraim,
no more war horses in Jerusalem,
no more swords and spears, bows and arrows.
He will offer peace to the nations,
a peaceful rule worldwide,
from the four winds to the seven seas.

"And you, because of my blood covenant with you,
I'll release your prisoners from their hopeless cells.
Come home, hope-filled prisoners!
This very day I'm declaring a double bonus -
everything you lost returned twice-over!
Judah is now my weapon, the bow I'll pull,
setting Ephraim as an arrow to the string.
I'll wake up your sons, O Zion,
to counter your sons, O Greece.
From now on
people are my swords."

Zechariah 9:9-12 The Message

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Must explain that, like several OT Messianic prophecies, Zech 9 vision sees both Christ's 1st coming - (riding on a humble donkey into Jerusalem) - & His return into Jerusalem after slaughtering Antichrist armies at Armageddon - Zechariah 14 Joel 3 & Revelation 16 etc - 'no more war' - as He will then rule all Earth with a rod of iron from Zion, entering it thru the East Gate of the rebuilt Temple & giving the world perfect peace & justice for 1000 years - till the final rebellion & destruction of Satan in Revelation 20

No better future than Revelation 21-22 - no more hunger, pain, disease, death or mourning - only eternal joy with Jesus

Revelation 21
The New Jerusalem

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."


as in Isaiah 65 Millenium vision

New Heavens and a New Earth

17 "Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.

19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.

20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach [a] a hundred
will be considered accursed.

21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the works of their hands.

23 They will not toil in vain
or bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them.

24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.

25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
but dust will be the serpent's food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,"
says the LORD.

As an 80-year-old guest preacher beamed on Sunday, "I can't wait!"

God bless!

Ian :-D

 

[BenJasher]

Mr Versatile:

I am in no position to feel inferior to you. And neither do I feel as though I have been proven wrong by your copious quotation of scriptures, many of which are misapplied, and I have noticed that you have added to some of them in hopes of skewing people's understanding of what is actually there. (Or is it your understanding that is skewed?)

For one thing, if you had the slightest inclination of being a serious bible student, you would have to concede that Matthew 24 is a prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem. And that it was fulfilled in 70 a.d. Anyone who would look at the evidence and not see that has either been blinded to the truth of the scriptures being confirmed by history, or just plainly doesn't know how to study the Bible.

Pre trib & post trib are NOT the same - after the world is destroyed by fire is too late to rescue anyone: Jesus said 'cut short (by the Rapture) for the sake of the elect, otherwise no-one would be left alive'

For one thing, pre, post and mid are prefixes that should never have been affixed to the word Tribulation. Why would I say that? Would there be any scriptural evidence for me to make that statement? And what are the ramifications of such a statement?

1) Because it is true.
2) Jesus said; " ...In the world ye shall have tribulation. But be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

Brother, the world has been in the throes of tribulation since Jesus was taken up. But we should not worry or fear, He has overcome. And this thought is contrary to the rapture teaching. If a particular teaching can be shown to be contrary to the teaching of the scripture (especially the words of Jesus!), would that not cast that teaching into a bad light? Much like Ted Haggard has been cast in a bad light lately. If your faith is built on a suspicious foundation, and you are happy with that, then you will have noone to blame but yourself when the storms wash your house away.

What are you going to do with the scriptures that say things like:
We must, through much tribulation, enter the kingdom of God...?(That verse has nothing to do with the rapture, by the way.) Or how about where it says ...we glory in tribulations.... How about the scripture that states...who comforts us in all our tribulations... or speaks about being ...exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.... These scriptures all use the same greek word for tribulation; Thlipsis. And these aren't the only ones.

Please, take your "The rapture just has to be true" glasses off and look at the plain truth of scripture. You just may be shocked to see that you have been sucked into a delusion all this time. It may even become necessary for you to apologize to all the people you have been leading astray.

The obvious ramifications of this is that your theology is faulty because it is based on a false premise, and that it is necessary for you to stop telling people that they are to just sit and be ready for the rapture.


Beyond all that, I caught you red-handed adding to, and therefore subverting, the scripture.

Jesus said 'cut short (by the Rapture) for the sake of the elect, otherwise no-one would be left alive'

(emphasis added for clarity)

It is completely wrong, incorrect, unethical, and irresponsible (again, reference Ted Haggard) for a Teacher of the scriptures to append the scripture like you did just then. That scripture has no reference to the rapture. Not under any pretense of circumstance.

When you 'cut short' your vacation because of some emergency at work or at home, did that mean that someone somehow transported you instantaneously from where you are to another location? NO. IT DOESN'T. AND IT DIDN'T IN THIS SCRIPTURE EITHER. Jesus spoke of bringing the age to an early close, not yanking His people out of it, to let it run the rest of it's course without them.

The whole concept behind the rapture is that the church will need to be rescued, which is the word you used. We don't need rescuing. If we were to grow up into maturity as the scriptures declare we are to do, we would be overcomers and not be hurt by the conditions of the world around us. We would not be subject to the wiles of our enemy, nor the fear and hatred of those who are under his power. We are to grow into the full measure of the stature of Christ, to have dominion over and not be subject to the world.

We don't need to be raptured, instead we need to grow up and overcome. And as long as our relationship with Jesus is poisoned by an untruth like a rapture, we will have no motivation to grow up or overcome. And we will fall into the company of five foolish virgins.

Be careful that your house not be left to you desolate. (Please note that I didn't say you would go to hell because you didn't have the right doctrine)[/i]

 

[Zero Link]

Pre Trib = rapture before the great trib.
Post Trib = during or after
Pre Wrath= Before God's Wrath
and God's Wrath doesn't start until the Post Trib.

so you guys do the math. :fadein:

 

[scorpia]

(I am not allowed to discuss the 1st most dangerous delusion)

You are not allowed to by whom? Would you care to let us know?