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Bible Study The sons of God and daughters of men?

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If people could become sons of God by burning up animals then why did Jesus Christ have to die on the cross for our sins?
You're not listening/reading (this is apostle Paul and Jesus speaking)

Romans 8:14 For all those who are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.​
[Paul didn't say burning up animals makes someone a Son of God. Nor did I. Nor does Paul say angels are sons of God. Being led by the Spirit of God means you are a Son of God.]

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, because they will be called sons of God.

[Jesus didn't say burning up animals makes someone a Son of God. Nor did I.]

How does burning animals make Job a son of God?

Last time. Job's being lead by the Spirit of God to make peace for his sons AND daughters means he was a Son of God. You are the one that said no women were there "before God". Yes they were. Job, lead by the Spirit brought their sins "before God".

As has already been pointed out to you, God even called Job his male/servent:

8 So Yahweh said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? Indeed, there is no one like him on the earth—a blameless man and upright and God-fearing and turning away from evil.”
The Hebrew word "servant" here literally means and is thus translated "male" 24 times in the NASB OT. Have you considered my male Job?, "My male" IS a son of God, right there in this context. And guess what, he's not an angel. Nor was Adam, nor Abraham nor Noah.
 
As I so frequently am on these "Christian" Forums, I am struck by the BREATHTAKING ARROGANCE of the following response:
Hello Runner, calvin here.
You see in order to legitimize the claim that the sons of God in g6:4 are naughty angels, one needs to endow them with abilities they just don't have. They would need to have the attributes of deity. That is exactly what that book claims. Re read it yourself ...
As I stated in my post, I have read it. I have corresponded with Dr, Heiser. He is very humble about his position, which is based on his vast expertise in the Semitic languages and worldview. He is indeed articulating the supernatural worldview of the OT peoples. Start with Psalm 82 (LEB, which is the most literal translation):

God stands in the divine assembly;
he administers judgment in the midst of the gods.
“How long will you judge unjustly
and show favoritism to the wicked? Selah
Judge on behalf of the helpless and the orphan;
provide justice to the afflicted and the poor.
Rescue the helpless and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
They do not know or consider.
They go about in the darkness,
so that all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
I have said, “You are gods,
and sons of the Most High, all of you.

However, you will die like men,
and you will fall like one of the princes.”​

I don't care how many Phds a person has, on spiritual matters unless they know Jesus as their personal saviour, they don't know anything.
And why would you assume in your BREATHTAKING ARROGANCE that Dr. Heiser does not know Jesus as his personal savior? He is in fact is a well-known CHRISTIAN scholar with a well-established ministry. Did you even ATTEMPT to verify anything about him before making your asinine statement? (A rhetorical question - the answer is self-evident.)

Mike earned his PhD in Hebrew Bible and Semitic Languages at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Before going to the UW-Madison, Mike earned an M.A. in Ancient History from the University of Pennsylvania (major fields were Ancient Israel and Egyptology), and another M.A. from the University of Wisconsin-Madison (Hebrew Studies). He also attended Dallas Theological Seminary. Mike’s undergraduate degree is from Bob Jones University, but he also attended Bible college for three years.

Mike’s dissertation was entitled, "The Divine Council in Late Canonical and Non-Canonical Second Temple Jewish Literature.” The dissertation sought to discern the ancient Canaanite and Israelite roots of Jewish binitarian monotheism and the early Church’s high Christology. Because of his course work, Mike can do translation work in roughly a dozen ancient languages, among them Biblical Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, Egyptian hieroglyphs, and Ugaritic cuneiform. He has also studied Akkadian and Sumerian independently.

Mike’s main research interests are Israelite religion (especially Israel's divine council), contextualizing biblical theology with Israelite and ancient Near Eastern religion, Jewish binitarianism, biblical languages, ancient Semitic languages, textual criticism, comparative philology, and Second Temple period Jewish literature.

As a Scholar-in-Residence for Faithlife, Mike is responsible for targeting and evaluating potential data projects for scholarly products, overseeing existing academic projects, and the creation of written content. Mike’s varied academic background enables him to operate in the realm of critical scholarship and the wider Christian community. His experience in teaching on the undergraduate level and writing for the layperson contributes directly to the company’s goal of adapting scholarly tools for non-specialists.

Before coming to Logos, Mike taught on the undergraduate level for twelve years, six of which were in Christian colleges. He currently teaches for Liberty University's distance education program. He has taught over twenty different courses covering both testaments, systematic theology, ethics, and biblical languages. He also taught world civilization for five years through Marian College in Fond du Lac, WI, and public speaking at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.

Mike has an active ministry to people whose worldview is molded by occult, paranormal, and esoteric beliefs. He observed that many who have adopted “alternative” worldviews were formerly traditional theists and Christians who left the faith when their questions on difficult passages and topics went unanswered, or when spiritual leaders failed to address experiences they had had. Mike seeks to fill these gaps as a Christian scholar and has become well known in these circles through writing, speaking, and numerous radio appearances.

Runner, you are young, my advice to you is to read and study the Bible continuously and shy away from books that purport to have some level of spiritual wisdom or authority.
As my profile clearly states, I am almost 68 years old. I have been a Christian for 47 years. I have been a lawyer for more than 35. My photo, taken at the age of 65, may look "young" to you because I know how to take care of myself. Post yours and we'll see who is taking 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 seriously. I don't need your BREATHTAKINGLY ARROGANT "advice."
 
Being led by the Spirit of God means you are a Son of God.]

So by this you are claiming that because Job was "led by the Spirit" to burn up animals as a burnt offering, he is now a son of God.

You are the only one who doesn't understand what you are implying in your depersate attempt to somehow make OT people before Christ, as sons of God.

Post the scriptures that shows us that Job or Noah or anyone else in the OT who produced Nephilim giants as offspring.


JLB
 
As I so frequently am on these "Christian" Forums, I am struck by the BREATHTAKING ARROGANCE of the following response:

As I stated in my post, I have read it. I have corresponded with Dr, Heiser. He is very humble about his position, which is based on his vast expertise in the Semitic languages and worldview. He is indeed articulating the supernatural worldview of the OT peoples. Start with Psalm 82 (LEB, which is the most literal translation):

God stands in the divine assembly;
he administers judgment in the midst of the gods.
“How long will you judge unjustly
and show favoritism to the wicked? Selah
Judge on behalf of the helpless and the orphan;
provide justice to the afflicted and the poor.
Rescue the helpless and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
They do not know or consider.
They go about in the darkness,
so that all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
I have said, “You are gods,
and sons of the Most High, all of you.

However, you will die like men,
and you will fall like one of the princes.”​


And why would you assume in your BREATHTAKING ARROGANCE that Dr. Heiser does not know Jesus as his personal savior? He is in fact is a well-known CHRISTIAN scholar with a well-established ministry. Did you even ATTEMPT to verify anything about him before making your asinine statement? (A rhetorical question - the answer is self-evident.)

Mike earned his PhD in Hebrew Bible and Semitic Languages at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Before going to the UW-Madison, Mike earned an M.A. in Ancient History from the University of Pennsylvania (major fields were Ancient Israel and Egyptology), and another M.A. from the University of Wisconsin-Madison (Hebrew Studies). He also attended Dallas Theological Seminary. Mike’s undergraduate degree is from Bob Jones University, but he also attended Bible college for three years.

Mike’s dissertation was entitled, "The Divine Council in Late Canonical and Non-Canonical Second Temple Jewish Literature.” The dissertation sought to discern the ancient Canaanite and Israelite roots of Jewish binitarian monotheism and the early Church’s high Christology. Because of his course work, Mike can do translation work in roughly a dozen ancient languages, among them Biblical Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, Egyptian hieroglyphs, and Ugaritic cuneiform. He has also studied Akkadian and Sumerian independently.

Mike’s main research interests are Israelite religion (especially Israel's divine council), contextualizing biblical theology with Israelite and ancient Near Eastern religion, Jewish binitarianism, biblical languages, ancient Semitic languages, textual criticism, comparative philology, and Second Temple period Jewish literature.

As a Scholar-in-Residence for Faithlife, Mike is responsible for targeting and evaluating potential data projects for scholarly products, overseeing existing academic projects, and the creation of written content. Mike’s varied academic background enables him to operate in the realm of critical scholarship and the wider Christian community. His experience in teaching on the undergraduate level and writing for the layperson contributes directly to the company’s goal of adapting scholarly tools for non-specialists.

Before coming to Logos, Mike taught on the undergraduate level for twelve years, six of which were in Christian colleges. He currently teaches for Liberty University's distance education program. He has taught over twenty different courses covering both testaments, systematic theology, ethics, and biblical languages. He also taught world civilization for five years through Marian College in Fond du Lac, WI, and public speaking at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.

Mike has an active ministry to people whose worldview is molded by occult, paranormal, and esoteric beliefs. He observed that many who have adopted “alternative” worldviews were formerly traditional theists and Christians who left the faith when their questions on difficult passages and topics went unanswered, or when spiritual leaders failed to address experiences they had had. Mike seeks to fill these gaps as a Christian scholar and has become well known in these circles through writing, speaking, and numerous radio appearances.


As my profile clearly states, I am almost 68 years old. I have been a Christian for 47 years. I have been a lawyer for more than 35. My photo, taken at the age of 65, may look "young" to you because I know how to take care of myself. Post yours and we'll see who is taking 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 seriously. I don't need your BREATHTAKINGLY ARROGANT "advice."

Breathtakingly Refreshing! :salute
 
Yes well I apologise for that. I somehow misread your age.
Fair enough, apology accepted. I know you are sincere and mean well, but I have been "pontificated at" enough on these forums that I am fed up to the gills. "Here is what you should do" ... "Here is why you're not a Christian" ... "This is what you need to do if you want to be a real Christian like me" ... yada yada yada. It is obvious to me that forums such as these fall far more into the category of "mental masturbation" for most participants than anything resembling "discussion" or "fellowship."
 
Let me ask you again in another way.

Any thoughts on how the sons of God, a religious caste of men, continued producing giants, after the flood?


JLB
Could be several things.
Took 2 of all flesh upon the ark, including giants.
The flood wasn't all over..
My opinion, another irruption, as Gen.6:4 states "and also after that".
Jude 6, and the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation....
 
I agree the Nephilim were/are men . So are the sons of God . When Jesus told the Pharisees they were of their father the devil ,they of course were men . Is there any reason to believe that devils and fallen angels marrying women today would not be rampant if it were possible ? jus sayin .. Another point is, did these angelic sons of God marry these daughters of men and provide for them ? Did they care for them ? Did they grow old with them ? How could they even live with them long enough for the wives to bear children ? Did they appear and disappear at will as spirit beings ? Lots of questions ..
I think the Sons of God were the bloodline descendants of Adam and the Daughters of men were Neanderthals and thus begat "mighty men of old"..."giants" and whatnot.
 
I think the Sons of God were the bloodline descendants of Adam and the Daughters of men were Neanderthals and thus begat "mighty men of old"..."giants" and whatnot.

So you're saying that natural man (Adam's line) and natural women (daughters of men), begat giants?! Uh...no. That can not be. I didn't have giants for kids. Did you? That doesn't happen.

And if you do a search, giants, are all over scripture. Describing them as giants, huge of stature.
 
I think the Sons of God were the bloodline descendants of Adam and the Daughters of men were Neanderthals and thus begat "mighty men of old"..."giants" and whatnot.
Possible, maybe probable, I don't think Cain married his sister, or Seth either , Jehovah Jirah (God provides) .. God created mankind on the 6th day including all races with no particular law, I agree the Sons of God were Adam and his bloodline, I have no clue what race Adam was but for him no suitable helpmate was found in Gen 2 . God created Adam a perfect helpmate, a female Adam bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh .. I give God more credit than to have Adam attempt to pick a helpmate from a non human .. Eve become the mother of all the living through Noah and post flood imo
 
So you're saying that natural man (Adam's line) and natural women (daughters of men), begat giants?! Uh...no. That can not be. I didn't have giants for kids. Did you? That doesn't happen.

And if you do a search, giants, are all over scripture. Describing them as giants, huge of stature.

Anek and his clan was a descendent of Ham a bunch of giants
 
Could be several things.
Took 2 of all flesh upon the ark, including giants.
The flood wasn't all over..
My opinion, another irruption, as Gen.6:4 states "and also after that".
Jude 6, and the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation....

Well scripture says that Noah & fam was pure in their generations. Meaning a pure bloodline. But Noah's son's...didn't take wives until the flood was upon them. They had tainted blood lines, the wives of the sons. They didn't take giants on the Ark with them.

And why did Noah curse Canann when he was angry at Ham? Because the boy had six fingers and six toes. Nephilim genes. Nowhere does scripture call mans kids nephilim.

Enoch and Jubilees both spell it out much more plainly than the canonized scripture does. That was why the flood. It wasn't the wrath of God against man's sin...it was God's wrath against the Nephilim, and the sins they taught to mankind. The flood was a blessing to man, that he should live.

If God was so angry at man for general sins...then why send His only son to die for us after He had wiped us out? Doesn't make sense Sister. This also explains why the so-called genocide of entire races of peoples on earth to be done by the old time patriarchs. The tainted blood lines.
 
Every possible genetic possibility we see today was represented on Noahs Ark and God selected who got tickets, I mentioned earlier that Mrs Noah had an 18ft sarcophagus and she was said to be 12 or more ft tall but that is according to Ron Wyatt who claims he found the Ark in Turkey along with other artifacts .
 
Well scripture says that Noah & fam was pure in their generations. Meaning a pure bloodline. But Noah's son's...didn't take wives until the flood was upon them. They had tainted blood lines, the wives of the sons. They didn't take giants on the Ark with them.

And why did Noah curse Canann when he was angry at Ham? Because the boy had six fingers and six toes. Nephilim genes. Nowhere does scripture call mans kids nephilim.

Enoch and Jubilees both spell it out much more plainly than the canonized scripture does. That was why the flood. It wasn't the wrath of God against man's sin...it was God's wrath against the Nephilim, and the sins they taught to mankind. The flood was a blessing to man, that he should live.

If God was so angry at man for general sins...then why send His only son to die for us after He had wiped us out? Doesn't make sense Sister. This also explains why the so-called genocide of entire races of peoples on earth to be done by the old time patriarchs. The tainted blood lines.

Noah and the paternal line from Adam was pure in their generations but don't you agree that every race was represented on the Ark .. First off remember Noah cursed Cannan , God didn't .
 
As I so frequently am on these "Christian" Forums, I am struck by the BREATHTAKING ARROGANCE of the following response:

As I stated in my post, I have read it. I have corresponded with Dr, Heiser. He is very humble about his position, which is based on his vast expertise in the Semitic languages and worldview. He is indeed articulating the supernatural worldview of the OT peoples. Start with Psalm 82 (LEB, which is the most literal translation):

God stands in the divine assembly;
he administers judgment in the midst of the gods.
“How long will you judge unjustly
and show favoritism to the wicked? Selah
Judge on behalf of the helpless and the orphan;
provide justice to the afflicted and the poor.
Rescue the helpless and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
They do not know or consider.
They go about in the darkness,
so that all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
I have said, “You are gods,
and sons of the Most High, all of you.

However, you will die like men,
and you will fall like one of the princes.”​


And why would you assume in your BREATHTAKING ARROGANCE that Dr. Heiser does not know Jesus as his personal savior? He is in fact is a well-known CHRISTIAN scholar with a well-established ministry. Did you even ATTEMPT to verify anything about him before making your asinine statement? (A rhetorical question - the answer is self-evident.)

Mike earned his PhD in Hebrew Bible and Semitic Languages at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Before going to the UW-Madison, Mike earned an M.A. in Ancient History from the University of Pennsylvania (major fields were Ancient Israel and Egyptology), and another M.A. from the University of Wisconsin-Madison (Hebrew Studies). He also attended Dallas Theological Seminary. Mike’s undergraduate degree is from Bob Jones University, but he also attended Bible college for three years.

Mike’s dissertation was entitled, "The Divine Council in Late Canonical and Non-Canonical Second Temple Jewish Literature.” The dissertation sought to discern the ancient Canaanite and Israelite roots of Jewish binitarian monotheism and the early Church’s high Christology. Because of his course work, Mike can do translation work in roughly a dozen ancient languages, among them Biblical Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, Egyptian hieroglyphs, and Ugaritic cuneiform. He has also studied Akkadian and Sumerian independently.

Mike’s main research interests are Israelite religion (especially Israel's divine council), contextualizing biblical theology with Israelite and ancient Near Eastern religion, Jewish binitarianism, biblical languages, ancient Semitic languages, textual criticism, comparative philology, and Second Temple period Jewish literature.

As a Scholar-in-Residence for Faithlife, Mike is responsible for targeting and evaluating potential data projects for scholarly products, overseeing existing academic projects, and the creation of written content. Mike’s varied academic background enables him to operate in the realm of critical scholarship and the wider Christian community. His experience in teaching on the undergraduate level and writing for the layperson contributes directly to the company’s goal of adapting scholarly tools for non-specialists.

Before coming to Logos, Mike taught on the undergraduate level for twelve years, six of which were in Christian colleges. He currently teaches for Liberty University's distance education program. He has taught over twenty different courses covering both testaments, systematic theology, ethics, and biblical languages. He also taught world civilization for five years through Marian College in Fond du Lac, WI, and public speaking at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.

Mike has an active ministry to people whose worldview is molded by occult, paranormal, and esoteric beliefs. He observed that many who have adopted “alternative” worldviews were formerly traditional theists and Christians who left the faith when their questions on difficult passages and topics went unanswered, or when spiritual leaders failed to address experiences they had had. Mike seeks to fill these gaps as a Christian scholar and has become well known in these circles through writing, speaking, and numerous radio appearances.


As my profile clearly states, I am almost 68 years old. I have been a Christian for 47 years. I have been a lawyer for more than 35. My photo, taken at the age of 65, may look "young" to you because I know how to take care of myself. Post yours and we'll see who is taking 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 seriously. I don't need your BREATHTAKINGLY ARROGANT "advice."

Runner, you'd have to have been around a while to have command of the English language like you do, that's a compliment by the way Brother .
 
Every possible genetic possibility we see today was represented on Noahs Ark and God selected who got tickets, I mentioned earlier that Mrs Noah had an 18ft sarcophagus and she was said to be 12 or more ft tall but that is according to Ron Wyatt who claims he found the Ark in Turkey along with other artifacts .

I've never heard that before and I've watched a lot of Ron Wyatts videos. Link me to this one you talk about, ok?

Here is one excerpt from the book of Enoch. Take it for what you will...

Chapter 7
1 It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful.

2 And when the angels, (3) the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children.

(3) An Aramaic text reads "Watchers" here (J.T. Milik, Aramaic Fragments of Qumran Cave 4 [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1976], p. 167).../

That's very plain.
 
I've never heard that before and I've watched a lot of Ron Wyatts videos. Link me to this one you talk about, ok?

Here is one excerpt from the book of Enoch. Take it for what you will...

Chapter 7
1 It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful.

2 And when the angels, (3) the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children.

(3) An Aramaic text reads "Watchers" here (J.T. Milik, Aramaic Fragments of Qumran Cave 4 [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1976], p. 167).../

That's very plain.
Edward I'm not preaching that you believe my POV brother . I don't and never have had a desire to read Enoch or any other book outside the Bible I tote . I know the RCC sometimes likes to take credit for the Bible but they didn't write or inspire it, they were only an instrument to collect it . I also don't believe Abraham married his sister or half sister , maybe close kin but not that close .. I've heard that Ham had sex with his mother and even his father and I don't believe that for a skinny minute either ..
 
Go to about 45:30 Ed and see what you think, this is not the same video I'd seen before but they talked, what they think was Noahs house, about a giant jaw bone he saw that showed up about the time the grave was robbed and other stuff It also mentioned jewelry that was huge proportion and the grave robbed and stuff stolen sold on the black market for millions , the sarcophagus was moved to Ankara to a museum, this video has a lot of fluff/talk and was really hard for me to listen to
 
Edward I'm not preaching that you believe my POV brother . I don't and never have had a desire to read Enoch or any other book outside the Bible I tote . I know the RCC sometimes likes to take credit for the Bible but they didn't write or inspire it, they were only an instrument to collect it . I also don't believe Abraham married his sister or half sister , maybe close kin but not that close .. I've heard that Ham had sex with his mother and even his father and I don't believe that for a skinny minute either ..

Oh I hear you Brother. We're just tossing this around. None of us get all the answers, we all get a portion and have to come together and compare notes to piece the big picture together. The only part of what you posted here that I've heard of is that I think scripture does say that Abraham married his half sister. The rest, I've never read in scripture.
 
Go to about 45:30 Ed and see what you think, this is not the same video I'd seen before but they talked, what they think was Noahs house, about a giant jaw bone he saw that showed up about the time the grave was robbed and other stuff It also mentioned jewelry that was huge proportion and the grave robbed and stuff stolen sold on the black market for millions , the sarcophagus was moved to Ankara to a museum, this video has a lot of fluff/talk and was really hard for me to listen to

I'm pretty hesitant to think this is true. I have never heard of Jonathan Gray before, and I've never heard his name dropped in a Ron Wyatt video. I have a lot of confidence in Ron Wyatt. This has no connection with Ron Wyatt except that the host said that he also interviewed Ron before his passing. That they found what they believe to be Noah's house is circumspect and just finding a huge jawbone doesn't mean it was Noah's wife's. Noah lived for 300 years after the flood? Who knows how long his wife lived, but if Ham's son was nephilim then 300 years is enough time for more of them to be around and die even in the same area in which Noah lived after the flood. So what makes them think it was Noahs wife's?

Ron Wyatt never said anything about finding Noahs house. The ark, Sodom & Gommorah, The site of the Red Sea crossing, and so forth, but not Noahs house. There's so much of this type of stuff out there that we have to be pretty careful what we choose to believe. I've heard some people say that Adam was 450 feet tall too, and I don't believe that either.

I'm not scared of Enoch. Enoch was a very Godly man. So Godly that God took him! So...I believe his book no matter what the naysayers say. It does not contradict scripture and no one has ever been able to show me where it even might. I think a lot of this is deliberate misinformation to make people confused so they don't know what to believe.

Luckily, The Holy Spirit will quicken my spirit when he wants me to know that what I am watching is true. I got several pings of my spirit watching Ron's videos. But who is Jonathan Gray?...I got no ping watching that.
 
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