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Bible Study The sons of God and daughters of men?

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for_his_glory

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#61
  • Even if you come to agree, that Jesus was referred to as the Angel of the Lord, that alone does not refute your position.
However since He created the angels, it would stand to reason that He created them in His image, as He did Adam.

as it is written

  • He shall cover you with His feathers, and under His wings you shall take refuge; Psalm 91:4


No one in the old testament had seen God [the Father], however several had seen the Lord before He became flesh.

He appeared as the Angel of the Lord, but was said to be God.

Three different scriptures referring to three different manifestations of the Angel of the Lord being referred to as God.

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

and again

21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
Judges 13:21-22


and again

11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:
“Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him. and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13


Then The Lord Himself, the Spirit of Christ, through Zechariah also refers to the Angel of the Lord as God.

In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. Zechariah 12:8


In addition, It was the Angel of the Lord, as Lord and God, who made Covenant with the children of Israel and led them out of Egypt.

Then the Angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this?3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’” 4 So it was, when the Angel of the Lord spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept.
Judges 2:1-4


Jesus is the Lord God of Israel, who became flesh and died for our sins, and rose again on the Third Day.
Jesus Christ is our great God and Savior. Titus 2:13


JLB
No angel was ever called the Son of God. Jesus is described as the first born of all creation, not the first created angel. Jesus was not a creature, but the eternal creator, John 1:10. The Angel of the Lord was a special messenger of God in the OT like the angel that revealed those things to John in Revelations 1:1 as Jesus sent the angel to him. Those in the OT that said they saw God were actually seeing an angel knowing that the angel was sent to them by God.

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Angels have no gender (Matthew 22:30) and are innumerable (Hebrews 12:22). They are incarnate in human form at times (Genesis 18:2-8) for the purpose of ministry. Angels also express emotions (Luke 15:10), are wise (2 Samuel 14:20) and powerful (Psalms 103:20).

They serve as messengers to communicate God's will to men. They helped reveal the law to Moses (Acts 7:52-53), and served as the carriers of much of the material in Daniel, and Revelation. Angels gave instructions to Joseph about the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1-2), to the women at the tomb, to Philip (Acts 8:26), and to Cornelius (Acts 10:1-8).

God has used angels to provide physical needs such as food for Hagar (Genesis 21:17-20), Elijah (1 Kings 19:6), and Christ after His temptation (Matthew 4:11).
 

for_his_glory

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#62
The scriptures teach us otherwise.

There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:4

  • There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men.
  • and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men.
These giants called Nephilim, were specifically produced when the sons of God came into the daughters of men, both before before the flood and also afterward.


Therefore since the sons of God survived the flood, and continued to produce giants after the flood, they could not have been angels.

The only sons of God that were mentioned in the old testament were Adam who was directly created by God, and angels who also were created by God.

The only way for some to become a son of God is through faith in Jesus Christ, by being "born again".

Natural birth = son of man
Spiritual birth = son of God



JLB
I never said giants were angels, but that they are extremely larger than the average size of a man. Scripture never defines any actual size that I know of other than being extremely large men.

Sons of God is used many times in scripture to refer to men (not angels) such as Genesis 5:1, 2 and Luke 3:38 calling Adam the son of God. Adam was the first son followed by Seth and then his son Enos and the family began to call on God, Genesis 4:26. These are the first sons of God mentioned in Genesis 6. Sons of God have always been followers, believers and worshippers of God. Man was created in the image of God in His likeness for the purpose of having dominion over the earth and to multiply the earth as male and female created he them, Genesis 1:26-28. Nowhere does it say that angels were involved with multiplying or having any dominion over the earth as Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25 makes it clear that angels do not marry nor are given in marriage so in fact they also can not procreate.

The sons of God, Godly line of Seth, took them wives of the daughters of the ungodly line of Cain (daughters of men) and choose wives from them. Genesis 6:4 speaks of giants being in the land, but never mentions that they took them wives of the daughters of men, buy says that when the sons of God (Godly line of Seth) came unto the daughters of men (Cain’s ungodly line) they bare children to them. These same children (from the line of Cain) became mighty men (giants) which were of old (before the flood) and men of renown in the sense that they were the ungodly princes, the conquerors, the heroes of those days and also after the flood being born from the line of Ham through his son Canaan, Genesis 9:20-27.

I agree as only those who are Spiritually born again can become sons and daughters of God and brothers and sisters to Christ.
 

JLB

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#63
No angel was ever called the Son of God. Jesus is described as the first born of all creation, not the first created angel.
Whoever said Jesus was a created angel?

You should go back and read what I said, and stop making up things that I didn't say.

Sons of God is a reference to angels in the Old Testament.

Now a person must be born again to be called a son of God.

Not so in the OT.


JLB
 
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#64
But if the lines of Seth were so Godly, then why did they perish in the flood? And why wouldn't it call them that. or the daughters of men? The flood is the same chapter!

It may be ok to disagree on this. It's not about redemption. The biggest thing I took away from it is that question asked by some who say God did genocide on entire races of people. Men, women and children too. Plus that in the tribulation that there may be strange creatures about. But don't fear them, Walk in Christ with authority. So it did shine light on other scriptures.

It was hard for me swallow at first too. Do what I did. Pray about it. I got confirmation about it. Believe it or not. :)
 

JLB

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#65
I never said giants were angels,

I never said, that you said, giants were angels.

Sons of God is used many times in scripture to refer to men (not angels) such as Genesis 5:1, 2 and Luke 3:38

As I said several times, the only son of God referred to in the old testament is Adam who was directly created by God.

Just as angels who were created by God are called sons of God.

  • Jesus is the only begotten of the father, and is the uncreated, Son of God.

Adams descendants who are male are called sons of men.
Adams descendants who are female are called the daughters of men.

There are no sons of God mentioned in the old testament except Adam was was not born but created by God Himself.

The only way for a person to become a son of God is to be born again.

If you refuse to believe that angels are called sons of God, that is your choice, but you will not find any humans in the old testament who are called sons of God except Adam [Eve by extension].


35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

  • for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God


I will not spend another 10 post's trying to convince you that angels are called sons of God.



JLB
 

for_his_glory

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#66
JLB,
Going back over my notes I do retract what I said in post # 50 about angels not being the sons of God as I know angels are called the sons of God and also those of the Spiritual rebirth are also called sons of God. Not sure why I wrote that, but anyway I do agree wit you on that.

Jesus was never referred to as The Angel of God. You used Exodus 3:1-6 in your post # 51 to prove that this angel (note small a not capital A) was actually Jesus, but this particular angel appeared to Moses as God spoke through this angel as no one could look upon the glory of the Lord and live, Exodus 33:20-23.

Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. (Giants are not angels, but men of great stature)
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. (angels)

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. (angels)

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (angels)

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (adoption through Spiritual rebirth)

Philippians 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; (adoption through Spiritual rebirth)

1John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (adoption through Spiritual rebirth)
 

JLB

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#67
Jesus was never referred to as The Angel of God. You used Exodus 3:1-6 in your post # 51 to prove that this angel (note small a not capital A) was actually Jesus, but this particular angel appeared to Moses as God spoke through this angel as no one could look upon the glory of the Lord and live, Exodus 33:20-23.
Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6

  • for he was afraid to look upon God.

An angel is a messenger who speaks word or message from God.

The Angel of the Lord would then be The Word (Message) of God.

An angel is son of God.

The Angel of the Lord would the be The Son of God.

An angel is a spirit.

The Angel of the Lord would be The Spirit of the Lord.

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2 Corinthians 3:17


JLB
 

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#68
Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6

  • for he was afraid to look upon God.

An angel is a messenger who speaks word or message from God.

The Angel of the Lord would then be The Word (Message) of God.

An angel is son of God.

The Angel of the Lord would the be The Son of God.

An angel is a spirit.

The Angel of the Lord would be The Spirit of the Lord.

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2 Corinthians 3:17


JLB
Exodus 3:2 says angel with a lower case "a". Why do you make it a Capital "A" when it is not there?

In scripture God uses angels, clouds, earthquakes, a dumb ass or just speaks directly to His children (sons of God) like He did with Haggai for us to hear Him speak as no man can see the brightness of His glory and live. Moses saw the burning bush, but hid his face from God in fear, Exodus 33:20; 3:1-6; 19:9; Haggai 2:20; 2 Peter 2:16

No angel was ever called the Son of God, but sons of God. Jesus is described as the first born of all creation, not the first created angel. Jesus was not a creature, but the eternal creator, John 1:10. The angel of the Lord was a special messenger of God in the OT and NT like the angel that revealed those things to John in Revelations 1:1 as Jesus sent the angel to him. Those in the OT that said they saw God were actually seeing an angel knowing that the angel was sent to them by God.
 

JLB

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#69
Exodus 3:2 says angel with a lower case "a". Why do you make it a Capital "A" when it is not there?

In scripture God uses angels, clouds, earthquakes, a dumb ass or just speaks directly to His children (sons of God) like He did with Haggai for us to hear Him speak as no man can see the brightness of His glory and live. Moses saw the burning bush, but hid his face from God in fear, Exodus 33:20; 3:1-6; 19:9; Haggai 2:20; 2 Peter 2:16

No angel was ever called the Son of God, but sons of God. Jesus is described as the first born of all creation, not the first created angel. Jesus was not a creature, but the eternal creator, John 1:10. The angel of the Lord was a special messenger of God in the OT and NT like the angel that revealed those things to John in Revelations 1:1 as Jesus sent the angel to him. Those in the OT that said they saw God were actually seeing an angel knowing that the angel was sent to them by God.
  • And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire

3 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”

4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”

And he said, “Here I am.”

5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

Key Verse -

  • for he was afraid to look upon God.

Moses was afraid to look upon God, the Angel of the Lord that appeared in the burning bush.

Furthermore He claimed to be I AM, which is a reference to YHWH.


13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?” 14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Moses 3:13-14

Jesus said He was I AM, to the Pharisee's.


Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:56-59


  • Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”


JLB
 
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#70
Hello calvin here,
I apologize for the delay in answering your earlier reply to me......medical issues and appointments galore lately.:sad

Adams descendants who are male are called sons of men.
Adams descendants who are female are called the daughters of men.

There are no sons of God mentioned in the old testament except Adam was was not born but created by God Himself.
But just quickly and for now, I would encourage you to study Psalm 82.
It is packed with goodies and of course the hero verse would have to be;
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. Kjv
Surely those to whom that psalm was addressed can properly be called sons/daughters of God?
more later...I hope.
 
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#71
Hi Calvin. Glad to see you again. You must have been on a vacation with Hobbes.

My foundation verse is....Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Also, Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

I had also included Job 38:7 and Genesis 6:5 & 6:6.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. also 2:1.

It is my opinion, after examining quite a few places in Scripture where Satan waged a war with God to destroy any and all avenues among Israel's history thru certain men in order to eliminate any chance of the Messiah to be born and succeed, such as the wilderness temptation of Christ Jesus.

The Old Covenant shows a few attempts of Satan to stop the line that Messiah would be born thru....
The Pharaoh of Egypt, thru slavery, tried to destroy Israel. The killing of Israel's new born was an attempt of Satan. Hiding Moses kept the line going. Saul tried to kill David. Haman undertook a mission of genocidal against the Jewish people.

Then the crucifixion of Jesus was a huge assault on the coming Messiah. There are many more instances for Satan's plans to stop the birth of Jesus.
Hello chopper, calvin here.
Chopper I had not intended to ignore your reply to me...I think we are both at that stage in life where we are just about full time employers of doctors and diagnostic centres, so you will understand my delay. I will (I hope)reply to you soon.
I think though that you and JLB have similar thoughts so I might capitalize on time by making my relies to you both if neither of you mind.
 
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#72
Hello chopper, calvin here.
Chopper I had not intended to ignore your reply to me...I think we are both at that stage in life where we are just about full time employers of doctors and diagnostic centres, so you will understand my delay. I will (I hope)reply to you soon.
I think though that you and JLB have similar thoughts so I might capitalize on time by making my relies to you both if neither of you mind.
I don't mind Brother. Take all the time you need, cuz we friends.
 

JLB

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#73
Hello calvin here,
I apologize for the delay in answering your earlier reply to me......medical issues and appointments galore lately.:sad


But just quickly and for now, I would encourage you to study Psalm 82.
It is packed with goodies and of course the hero verse would have to be;
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. Kjv
Surely those to whom that psalm was addressed can properly be called sons/daughters of God?
more later...I hope.

I would encourage you to read Genesis 6:4, as it reveals the simple truth about the sons of God being angels, in which the flood had no effect on them, but they continued to produce Nephilim giants after the flood, in which the children of Israel destroyed the rest of them when they drove them from the promised land.

Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
3 And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:1-4


  • There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men.



JLB
 

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#74
  • And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire
3 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”

4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”

And he said, “Here I am.”

5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

Key Verse -

  • for he was afraid to look upon God.

Moses was afraid to look upon God, the Angel of the Lord that appeared in the burning bush.

Furthermore He claimed to be I AM, which is a reference to YHWH.


13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?” 14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Moses 3:13-14

Jesus said He was I AM, to the Pharisee's.


Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:56-59


  • Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”


JLB
Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Once again, why do you capitalize the "a" to make this to be Jesus who spoke through the flame? It's the same with son of God and Son of God. Small "s" denotes the angels, Capital "S" denotes Jesus.

All these verses speak of the angel of the Lord or an angel of the Lord as being an appearance of God in a physical form as this is why they all feared and said they had seen God. Being that angels are a created spirit I can not see any of them being Jesus as Jesus was not a created creature, but the eternal creator, John 1:10. Angels are called sons of God, but never the Son of God.

Genesis 16:7-12; 21:17, 18; 22:11-18; Exodus 3:2; Judges 2:1-4; 5:23; 6:11-24;
13:3-22; 2 Samuel 24:16; Zechariah 1:12; 3:1, 2; 12:8; Matthew 28:2
 

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#75
And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.TE="for_his_glory, post: 1363937, member: 1581"]Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Once again, why do you capitalize the "a" to make this to be Jesus who spoke through the flame? It's the same with son of God and Son of God. Small "s" denotes the angels, Capital "S" denotes Jesus.

All these verses speak of the angel of the Lord or an angel of the Lord as being an appearance of God in a physical form as this is why they all feared and said they had seen God. Being that angels are a created spirit I can not see any of them being Jesus as Jesus was not a created creature, but the eternal creator, John 1:10. Angels are called sons of God, but never the Son of God.

Genesis 16:7-12; 21:17, 18; 22:11-18; Exodus 3:2; Judges 2:1-4; 5:23; 6:11-24;
13:3-22; 2 Samuel 24:16; Zechariah 1:12; 3:1, 2; 12:8; Matthew 28:2
Here it is again.

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Exodus 3:2 NKJV

I don't capitalize anything, that is the way it is written in my Bible.

It doesn't matter whether angel is capitalized or not.

It is "the" Angel of the Lord, not an angel of the Lord, that tells us, along with the context, and the context it is God, the scripture is referring to.

Just as the son of God, is a reference to God, and a son of God refers to either angels or those who are sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

Exodus Chapter 3 KJV: The context teaches us that the angel of the Lord is God; The Son of God.


vs.2] And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

vs.4] And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

vs.6] Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

vs.]13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.


  • Jesus claimed to be I Am, the Lord God [YHWH].

55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word.56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:55-59


The other places in the old testament that refers to the Angel of the Lord as God:


And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

and again

21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
Judges 13:21-22


and again

11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:
“Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him. and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13



Then The Lord Himself, the Spirit of Christ, through Zechariah also refers to the Angel of the Lord as God.

In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. Zechariah 12:8


In addition, It was the Angel of the Lord, as Lord and God, who made Covenant with the children of Israel and led them out of Egypt.

Then the Angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this?3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’” 4 So it was, when the Angel of the Lord spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept. Judges 2:1-4



JLB
 
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for_his_glory

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#76
JLB, you believe as you will and I the same as I feel it's time to move past this as no matter what, the point is that it's God who is speaking.
God bless
 

JLB

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#77
JLB, you believe as you will and I the same as I feel it's time to move past this as no matter what, the point is that it's God who is speaking.
God bless

OK.


Thanks for discussing.



JLB
 
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Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Once again, why do you capitalize the "a" to make this to be Jesus who spoke through the flame? It's the same with son of God and Son of God. Small "s" denotes the angels, Capital "S" denotes Jesus.

All these verses speak of the angel of the Lord or an angel of the Lord as being an appearance of God in a physical form as this is why they all feared and said they had seen God. Being that angels are a created spirit I can not see any of them being Jesus as Jesus was not a created creature, but the eternal creator, John 1:10. Angels are called sons of God, but never the Son of God.
Hi there Glory Girl. There might be some things here that you might not understand. If you don't mind, in love, I'd like to point out a few facts that have been in place for Centuries. This is what you said....

Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Once again,
why do you capitalize the "a" to make this to be Jesus who spoke through the flame?


Yes, the Angel of the Lord was indeed Jesus in the Old Covenant, and to respect the Son of God, it is proper to capitalize Angel.

Here is what John Gill has to say...."And the Angel of the Lord appeared unto him,.... Not a created angel, but the Angel of God's presence and covenant, the eternal Word and Son of God; since he is afterwards expressly called Jehovah, and calls himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, which a created angel would never do."

Here is what Albert Barnes has to say...."The words which Moses heard were those of God Himself, as all ancient and most modern divines have held, manifested in the Person of the Son."

As far as protocol of a or A goes, if a good angel is referred to, it is Angel. If it is an evil angel, produced thru Satan, it is angel. Since Satan is a proper name of a person, it should be capital A.

I hope this helps.
I love You, :hug
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I thought Satan was a title of office, Brother. Like Jesus the Christ...Lucifer the great Satan...

Am I wrong?
 

for_his_glory

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Thank you my dear friend Chopper :hug. I guess I am just hung up on the a and A part of it, but all in all it is the voice of God speaking and that is what is important.
 
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