The sons of God and daughters of men?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by new covenant preacher, Sep 2, 2017.

  1. JLB

    JLB Member

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    You will have to do better that state your opinion in the face of all the evidence from the scriptures I posted.

    You can start by explaining how a Human being can produce a son of God through natural child birth. :nono


    JLB
     
  2. chessman

    chessman Member

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    Easy:

    Genesis 6:9-10, 18 Genesis 7:1 Genesis 8:18, 20 Then Yahweh said to Noah, “Go—you and all your household—into the ark, for I have seen you are righteous before me in this generation. These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, without defect in his generations. Noah walked with God. And Noah fathered three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And I will establish my covenant with you, and you must go into the ark—you, and your sons, and your wife, and the wives of your sons with you. So Noah went out, with his sons and his wife, and the wives of his sons with him. And Noah built an altar to Yahweh, and he took from all the clean animals and from all the clean birds, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

    Please post the Scripture that says sons of God are angels having sex with women that produce men, gaint men!

    :nono
    Care to answer⬇️
     
  3. JLB

    JLB Member

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    No mention here of the offspring of Adam being called sons of God. :wave


    JLB
     
  4. JLB

    JLB Member

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    I asked to to support you theory with scripture that says the offspring of Adam were called sons of God.

    In addition you need to explain how sons of God are produced through natural child birth.

    I have asked for this from you from the beginning, and you refuse to do so.


    I will take that to mean you have decided to stop teaching God's people that sons of God can be produced through natural child birth.

    JLB
     
  5. Edward

    Edward Member

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    Maybe I can help with another scripture.

    Daniel 2: 42-44

    42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

    43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

    44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.../

    In v43 a personal pronoun is used in the word "They". Common sense and gramattical rules would indicate that in order for the they to make sense, then it would have to mean something other than the seed of men.

    Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
     
  6. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Yes. Have used this many times while teaching this subject.

    Verse 43 is clear that there will be a co-mingling of two different species.

    The ten toes, the ten kings that will rule the ten regions in the latter days will not be human.

    Notice the feet of iron and clay, which contain the ten toes, (the ten kings) are the primary target of the stone that was cut out without hands.

    You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. Daniel 2:34

    The Lord will destroy the kingdoms of this world and their rulers and no trace of them will ever be found again.

    Then the saying will come to pass that says.

    The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ.
    Revelation 11:15

    And again

    For the earth will be filled
    With the knowledge of the glory of the Lord,
    As the waters cover the sea.
    Habakkuk 2:14


    And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

    Amen.


    JLB
     
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  7. Edward

    Edward Member

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    I thought that scripture in Daniel just might be what chessman was asking for...
     
  8. chessman

    chessman Member

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    Yes this dream's interpretation of which you post a portion and the reply that followed is very helpful to demonstrate just how misinformation gets propagated:

    Daniel was clear (if you simply read what he said the iron and clay are)

    Nebuchadnezzar was a king, a man who ruled over other men and other kings of his day (600 BC). He was the gold head in his dream.

    38 he has given into your hand and made you ruler over all of themyou are the head of gold.

    After his kingdom, would come another inferior king (represented by bronze in his dream):

    39 And after you another kingdom inferior to yours will arise, and another third kingdom of bronze that will rule over the whole earth.
    And then a fourth kingdom (not 'another species') would arise represented by inferior bronze (though still strong) mixed with potter's clay (a brittle portion of the fourth kingdom).
    All one has to do is read v42 to understand v43, just like reading Gen 6:3 explains Gen 6:4

    42 And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so part of the kingdom will be strong and partly brittle.
    There is not one single mention of 'two different species' here (or in Gen 6:4). Poof!

    The 'clay' is "part of the fourth kingdom', the brittle part, NOT angels having sex with women!

    Yes, very helpful to demonstrate what you guys are doing to these Texts. Thanks.

    Daniel 2 Lexham English Bible (LEB)
    21 And he [the name of God, v20] changes the times and the seasons,
    and he deposes kings and he sets up kings;
    he gives wisdom to wise men

    and knowledge
    to men who know understanding.

    Notice two things:
    1. The dream is about God [the name of God technically] setting up and deposing kings and kingdoms who rule over MEN (not angels or other 'species').
    2. God gives wisdom to wise MEN (Daniel in this case) and revealed it to King Nebuchadnezzar, not to angels or another 'species'.

    Daniel 2:28-29 But there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and he has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what it is that will be at the end of days. This is your dream and the visions of your head on your bed. “As for you, king, your thoughts on your bed turned to what it was that would be in the future, and the revealer of mysteries has made known to you what that would be.

    Notice this dream is about what will be "in the future', not about what was happening in Gen 6 (in the distant past) which is supposed to be the topic. Genesis 6:4 is about "men that are flesh" + the Spirit of God abiding with them (flesh + The Spirit = sons of God, JUST like Adam was a Son of God, just like Noah was, Seth was, Abraham was, etc.) taking wives (plural wives rather than one wife) and them bearing actual children (not another 'species').

    Genesis 6:2-4Lexham English Bible (LEB)

    2 Then the sons of God saw the daughters of humankind, that they were beautiful. And they took for themselves wives from all that they chose. 3 And Yahweh said, “My Spirit shall not abide with humankind forever in that he is also flesh. And his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 The Nephilim were upon the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God went into the daughters of humankind, and they bore children to them.

    All that was necessary to properly understand Gen 6:4 was to actually read v2-3, surprise surprise. And not 'insert' angels into the context. Same with Nebuchadnezzar's dream. All that was necessary to properly understand Daniel 2:43 was to read Daniel 2:42.

    Why would someone insert 'another species' into this context and ignore what Daniel clearly tells us the "clay" and "iron" are (and they are NOT another species, but rather two portions of the fourth kingdom) is beyond me to understand. But whatever, you guys carry on with 'bible study'.




     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  9. JLB

    JLB Member

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    I never said Daniel 2:43 referred to angels having sex with women.

    43 As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. Daniel 2:43


    They will mingle with the seed of men, refers to a being ["they"] that mingles with the seed of men.


    This speaks of genetic co mingling of species as we see happening today.

    The integration of a "being" with the seed of men.



    JLB
     
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  10. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Jesus Himself called Himself the Son of Man, and reference to being a son of Adam.


    Male human beings are called sons of men.

    Help, Lord, for the godly man ceases,
    For the faithful disappear from among the sons of men.
    Psalm 12:1


    Their offspring You shall destroy from the earth,
    And their descendants from among the sons of men.
    Psalm 21:10


    The Lord looks from heaven;
    He sees all the sons of men.
    Psalm 33:13


    Come and see the works of God;
    He is awesome in His doing toward the sons of men.
    Psalms 66:5


    Female human beings are called the daughters of men.

    Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. Genesis 6:1-2

    • when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them
    • that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves


    Please show us a scripture from the old testament, that refers to an offspring of Adam as a son of God.


    The Spirit of God even laid out the genealogy of mankind in chapter 5, as context for chapter 6.

    There were no sons of God mentioned in the line of Adam.


    This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. 3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. 4 After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters. 5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.

    6 Seth lived one hundred and five years, and begot Enosh. 7 After he begot Enosh, Seth lived eight hundred and seven years, and had sons and daughters. 8 So all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years; and he died.

    9 Enosh lived ninety years, and begot Cainan. 10 After he begot Cainan, Enosh lived eight hundred and fifteen years, and had sons and daughters. 11 So all the days of Enosh were nine hundred and five years; and he died.

    12 Cainan lived seventy years, and begot Mahalalel. 13 After he begot Mahalalel, Cainan lived eight hundred and forty years, and had sons and daughters. 14 So all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years; and he died.

    15 Mahalalel lived sixty-five years, and begot Jared. 16 After he begot Jared, Mahalalel lived eight hundred and thirty years, and had sons and daughters. 17 So all the days of Mahalalel were eight hundred and ninety-five years; and he died.

    18 Jared lived one hundred and sixty-two years, and begot Enoch. 19 After he begot Enoch, Jared lived eight hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 20 So all the days of Jared were nine hundred and sixty-two years; and he died.

    21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methuselah. 22 After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

    25 Methuselah lived one hundred and eighty-seven years, and begot Lamech. 26 After he begot Lamech, Methuselah lived seven hundred and eighty-two years, and had sons and daughters. 27 So all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred and sixty-nine years; and he died.

    28 Lamech lived one hundred and eighty-two years, and had a son. 29 And he called his name Noah, saying, “This one will comfort us concerning our work and the toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord has cursed.” 30 After he begot Noah, Lamech lived five hundred and ninety-five years, and had sons and daughters. 31 So all the days of Lamech were seven hundred and seventy-seven years; and he died.

    32 And Noah was five hundred years old, and Noah begot Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
    Genesis 5:1-32



    JLB
     
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  11. chessman

    chessman Member

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    No it doesn't. There is no 'being that mingles' or 'another species' or 'genetic co-mingling' mentioned in this Text. It's fantasy to teach it. The "they" are the clay (which is a brittle portion of the fourth kingdom) and the bronze (which is a strong portion of the fourth kingdom) are feet and toes in the dream that mixed together for a time to form the fourth kingdom which does not adhere (the kingdom comes to an end and will NOT be left for another nation), plain and simple as v42 and 44 says:

    42 And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so part of the kingdom will be strong and partly brittle.

    Here's another clear problem/contradiction with your 'teaching' about this Text (whether related to Gen 6 or not, it's not):

    44 And in the day of those kings, by the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, and the kingdom will not be left for another nation, and it will bring an end to all these kingdoms, but it will stand forever.
    If v43 were about 'genetic co mingling as we see happening today' (as you teach), then why did God tell Daniel that "they" (the fourth kingdom made of both bronze and clay) would end at the setting up of the final kingdom (Christ's that lasts forever)?
    The bronze and clay kingdom (the fourth) would NOT BE left for another nation!

    Clearly, your teaching that the fourth kingdom is about 'genetic co mingling that we see today' is contradictory with v44 saying that kingdom will not be left for another nation. Poof! (But carry on anyway).
     
  12. JLB

    JLB Member

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    My position is that the sons of God were angels, and were unaffected by the flood, and they continued to produce giants after the flood just as Genesis 6:4 states.

    There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:4


    If your position is that the sons of God were human "godly men", then you are claiming it was Noah that produced giants after the flood.

    Now this is the genealogy of the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And sons were born to them after the flood.
    The sons of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. The sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah. The sons of Javan were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. From these the coastland peoples of the Gentiles were separated into their lands, everyone according to his language, according to their families, into their nations.
    Genesis 10:1-5

    The only "sons" listed were Shem, Ham, and Japeth. No giants? No sons of God in any genealogy before or after the flood?



    JLB
     
  13. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Verse 43 is what teaches this, not 42 or 44.

    43 As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. Daniel 2:43


    "they" is a person or being, not an "it', and "they" is not the seed of men, but rather "mingles" together with the seed of men.



    JLB
     
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  14. chessman

    chessman Member

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    Verse 43 says NADA, zilch, not one word about "genetic co mingling of species as we see happening today".

    What verse 44 does is prove that verse 43 CANNOT be about "genetic co mingling of species as we see happening today" because the kingdom of those feet and toes (bronze and clay) was brought to an end by the crushing Stone (Christ) in the day that God of heaven set up His kingdom.

    44 And in the day of those kings, by the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, and the kingdom will not be left for another nation, and it will bring an end to all these kingdoms, but it will stand forever.
    Just like He did to "all these kingdoms" of gold, sliver and iron.
     
  15. Edward

    Edward Member

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    Exactly. That's a personal pronoun. Where's the grammar nazi's when you need them, lol?! I sort've thought that the fourth kingdom was referencing the kingdom of darkness.

    Maybe Romans 1:22-32 has something to do with this confusion also? There sure are a lot of wise men here. I'm not one of them, but still.
     
  16. chessman

    chessman Member

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    Yes as well as calling Himself "The Son of God" a reference to His abiding with the The Father and Holy Spirit (before and after His birth)

    Matt 1:18 The Birth of Jesus Christ ] Now the birth of Jesus Christ occurred in this way. His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant by the Holy Spirit.​

    In fact, all those who are lead by the Spirit are sons of God, just like Adam and Noah and Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and everyone lead by the Holy Spirit are:

    Romans 8:14 For all those who are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
    Just look at these two OT examples of being "led by the Spirit of God" by faith. They were "heirs of the righteousness" (which literally means right of sonship):

    1. Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out to a place that he was going to receive for an inheritance, and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived in the land of promise as a stranger, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the fellow heirs of the same promise.

    2. Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, having been warned about things not yet seen, out of reverence constructed an ark for the deliverance of his family, by which he pronounced sentence on the world and became an heir of the righteousness [which means right of sonship] that comes by faith.

    Yet another Proof positive (Poof) that 'sons of God' is NOT a reference to angels as you claim (unless you can show that Adam, Jesus, Abraham, Noah, Issac and Jacob were 'angels', I suppose. It's a reference to humans that are led by the Spirit of God by faith (such as Noah, Abraham, Issac and Jacob even going back to Noah (prior to the flood) and Adam. Always has been, always will be true under both covenants that all those who are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

    And when/if sons of men abide with the Spirit of God and are lead by the Spirit of God, they are called sons of God, in both covenants of God.

    Sure, once again:

    Genesis 5:1-3 (LEB)
    Adam’s Descendants to Noah

    5 This is the record of the generations of Adam. When God created Adam, he made him in the likeness of God. 2 Male and female he created them. And he blessed them. And he called their name “Humankind” when they were created. 3 And when Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he fathered a child in his likeness, according to his image. And he called his name Seth. ...
    With me so far??? God created Adam and made him (Adam) in the likeness of God. Then He created Eve and blessed "them" and called them (male and female) "humankind". And you have agreed that Adam is a son of God, right? So here are humankind's offspring discussed. Seth was fathered in Adam's likeness, according to his image (which is according to the likeness of God). Adam's generations ends with Noah AND Noah's three sons:

    32 When Noah was five hundred years old, Noah fathered Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

    With me so far??? Noah, Shem, Ham and Japheth were listed in the generations of Adam as offspring of Adam (fathered in Adam's likeness, according to his image in the likeness of God), correct?

    Having established that Noah was listed in the generations of Adam, was Noah a "son of God"??? Yes:

    Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, without defect in his generations. Noah walked with God.

    Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, having been warned about things not yet seen, out of reverence constructed an ark for the deliverance of his family, by which he pronounced sentence on the world and became an heir of the righteousness [which means right of sonship] that comes by faith.

    Umm, Adam was a son of God and his son Seth was made in his image and worshiped God. Poof!
    But you do realize that there are no "sons of men" (or angels) mentioned using that phrase, right? What's mentioned is Adam being a son of God and his generations being in his image, in the likeness of God.

    Plus, See the record of Adam's generations (who were created in his image who was created in the likeness of God) and see those who abided with the Spirit such as Noah) listed above. (or just keep making up your own idea about who the 'sons of God' are).

    Was Adam an angel having sex with women?

    First, is it your opinion that Adam was an angel having sex with women producing giants before the flood?

    Noah didn't have any sons (tall or short) after the flood, for God's sake the man was 601 years old.

    But his sons did (and lots of them). So yes, the sons of Noah populated the whole Earth (just as the Bible says) along with their wives. Some were tall (like king Saul was) and some where short. And as I've already said, the Bible tells you that "giants" were "men" (not a new species of co-mingled human genes with angel 'genes' whatever you think that is).

    1 Chronicles 20:6And again there was war in Gath. And there was a very tall man there, and he had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot, twenty-four in all. He himself was also a descendant of the Rephaim.

    18 Now the sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham, and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.) 19 These three were the sons of Noah, and from these the whole earth was populated.

    Gen 10:6 The sons of Ham were Cush, Mizraim, Put, and Canaan.
    Gen 10:8 Cush begot Nimrod; he began to be a mighty one on the earth.

    Poof, Nimrod was a mighty one who was a descendent of Ham (one of Noah's sons).
     
  17. chessman

    chessman Member

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    Lol, there is no personal pronoun in the Hebrew Text of v43.

    It's a verb, that just means mixed/combined. It has zero "personal" connotation to it in Hebrew or English.

    The dream:
    Daniel 2:35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold all at once broke into pieces and they became like chaff from the summer threshing floor, and the wind carried them away and any trace of them could not be found.

    The interpretation:
    Daniel 2:41-45 And just as you saw the feet and the toes, partly potter’s clay and partly iron, it will be a divided kingdom; and some hardness of the iron will be in it, just as you have seen the iron mixed with the wet clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so part of the kingdom will be strong and partly brittle. And in that you saw the iron was mixed with wet clay, so they will mix in marriage and they will not cling to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. And in the day of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, and the kingdom will not be left for another nation, and it will bring an end to all these kingdoms, but it will stand forever. Inasmuch as you saw that a stone from the mountain was chiseled out but not by hands, and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold, thereby the great God made known to the king what will be in the future, and the dream is certain and its explanation trustworthy.”

    It is certain and trustworthy that "they" (the clay and iron) are earthly kingdoms (not Genes of differing species, which BTW are not personal anyway).

    It is certan and trustworthy that "they" (this mixed kindom) has ended and is not left for another nation. Gone with the summer wind like chaff.

    As certain and trustworthy as Christ's coming!
     
  18. JLB

    JLB Member

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    When the stone that is cut out without hands, strikes the image on the feet, and all are crushed together, the wind caries them away and NO TRACE OF THEM WAS FOUND.

    You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. Daniel 2:34-35

    Since the kingdoms of this world are still here, we certainly know that this scripture has not yet been fulfilled.


    JLB
     
  19. Edward

    Edward Member

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    Come on chessman, English was my best subject. It what poor men do...read. If you wanna' get technical, it's not only a pronoun, but a possessive pronoun.

    "They" is very resistive to being a verb they way it is used in that sentence. The sentence makes no sense unless "they" is something other than the seed of man.

    But, let it be so according to your faith. :study :lol
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  20. Edward

    Edward Member

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    Besides, where's the action in "they"? The action is in "Mingle" They will "mingle".

    You prolly excelled in the creative arts, right? :hysterical
     

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