The soul of man

Discussion in 'Theology' started by freewill, Sep 29, 2016.

  1. freewill

    freewill Member

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    Hello everyone,

    If, like Calvinists and many other evangelical Christians, you happen to believe the souls of all men will live forever, could you explain to me please exactly where in the Bible such a doctrine comes from? The reason I ask is because I am a Christian who has regularly attended an evangelical church these last 19 years… https://0testsite00.wordpress.com/2016/09/01/immortality-vs-mortality/
     
  2. chessman

    chessman Member

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    Hello. I hope you don't mind me responding even though I do not believe the souls of all men will live forever (only those souls that are granted that gift do so), but that idea DOES NOT appear in the Bible. In fact, The Bible, clearly teaches otherwise. I was taught by my church my whole life that humans are created immortal via the “image of God”. Yet, the Bible never (not once) defines one of the attributes of being created “in the image of God” as being immortal. It’s clearly NOT the case, Biblically speaking. In fact, The Bible explicitly states that humans are created mortal in a multitude of passages (both body and soul):

    Matthew 10:28 (LEB) And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Romans 1:23 (LEB) ...and exchanged the glory of the immortal God with the likeness of an image of mortal human beings and birds and quadrupeds and reptiles.

    [Human beings are mortal! Plain and simple. If you are going to argue against this fact, and that somehow being created in the image of God means we as human beings posses God’s immortality (prior to receiving immortality as a gift at our resurrection, see 1 Cor 15:54) then there’s really no convincing someone otherwise, IMO. See Job 9:32, Psalm 10:18, Prov 16:1, Eccl 3:19, Micah 6:8]

    Romans 2:7 (LEB) to those who, by perseverance in good work, seek glory and honor and immortality, eternal life,

    [Human beings seek after immortality. We don’t possess it from Adam or our earthly parents. It’s “conditioned” upon God’s judgment of us on the Day when God judges people according to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. See 2 Tim 1:10]

    1 Corinthians 15:53 (LEB)

    For it is necessary for this perishable body to put on incorruptibility, and this mortal body to put on immortality.

    [Again, it is necessary for our mortal bodies to put on immortality. (note, body is implied, not present in the Text). And that only occurs at the time of the bodily resurrection and given only to those judged by God as being worthy of honor/glory/immortality via their belief in the Gospel. of Jesus Christ]

    1 Corinthians 15:54 (LEB) But whenever this perishable body puts on incorruptibility and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up in victory.

    [At that time (not prior to it) is when immortality is given. “body” is implied at not present in the actual Text.]

    2 Timothy 1:10 (LEB) but has now been disclosed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought to light life and immortality through the gospel,
     
  3. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    Why do you assume that the Bible (in it's popular abridged western form) is the only source of truth?

    Consider:
    1Co 15:51-54 Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

    Do you assume that when all mankind is raised from the dead and made imperishable and immortal that they will have no souls?

    iakov the fool
     
  4. freewill

    freewill Member

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    I see that you chose not to include the previous verse which does help to explain more of what the apostle Paul was saying to the church at Corinth: Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruptionIf all of chapter 15 is read carefully it then becomes clear: the context in which all the verses in question were written is one where Paul was correcting the Christians at Corinth who were confused concerning the resurrection. Some in the church were actually saying "there is no resurrection of the dead", verse 12. When Paul wrote, “neither doth corruption inherit incorruption” he was also explaining what will happen to the corrupted souls who remain corrupt: they will not inherit incorruption. In other words they shall remain corrupt and will be condemned at the judgement. It is then the saved souls, whom Paul was referring to when he wrote “the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed”, not the lost. Paul neither says nor implies that all mankind will be made imperishable and immortal as you seem to think. If man was born with an immortal soul (as Calvinists would have us believe) and his senses and awareness and his ability to reason and perceive continued living forever, then there would be no need for him to put on immortality, would there?

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 tells us the dead in Christ will rise first. These are the souls whom Paul was referring to when he said the dead will be raised imperishableNIV.

    Ezekiel 18:4 ESV, KJV, NKJV tells us, “the soul who sins shall die". It is worth noting here that the original Hebrew word for “soul” is nephesh – (a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion) and happens to be the same word used in Genesis 2:7 (“and man became a living soul” KJV). What has been written on this page concerning the Hebrew word for soul: http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/nephesh.html is very interesting and well worth studying.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
  5. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    1Co 15:21-22 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

    "All" means "all."

    You have a problem with the concept of the soul. Are you a 7th Day Adventist or a Jehovah's Witness?
     
  6. freewill

    freewill Member

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    Neither, are you a Christian Universalist?
     
  7. smaller

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    In 1 Cor. 15, particularly vs. 24-47 Paul exposes the condition of every natural person. Not as 'some' being corrupt and others not. We are all planted in corruption, dishonor and weakness in a natural body that is doomed to eventual death. Paul defined this as his own condition of planting more precisely in Romans 7, particularly Romans 7:17-21.

    In other words, being sinners is the condition of all natural mankind.

    I might be more inclined to view the "soul" as a two part matter, of both internal good and evil. And these, not the "same" souls.

    Luke 21:19
    In your patience possess ye your souls.
     
  8. dianegcook

    dianegcook Member

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    John 3:16 comes to mind...
    Shall not perish but have everlasting life...
    All do not have everlasting life, period, they perish, fully destroyed..
     
  9. JohnDB

    JohnDB Staff Member Moderator

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    The Hebrew word for soul is "nepesh".

    Where many believe it is a person's spirit. I happen to not believe such a thing.

    What I believe according to the way the scriptures present a "nepesh" is that you have a spirit, a mind, and a body...all three parts required to be a soul. This is how the animals have a sou.

    A person can have many "spirits" residing within them...some positive such as the Spiritual gifts and many negative.

    We also have a mind...where our emotions and our will and our actions come from...aka the "heart" of a person.

    Now we also have a body. Unless you are Lazarus your body will die one time. That doesn't mean that the soul will die as those who believe and have faith in Jesus will get a new body...one capable of existing in Heaven as earthly flesh and blood cannot gain access into Heaven.

    Those who have passed on from this earthly life are already in Heaven...
    (And if you want your brain really twisted....since Heaven is eternal, without end or beginning you have always been there...and no one really gets there before anyone else does. In Heaven it's an almost where you arrive instead of when. )

    Time itself is not a box that Heaven is constricted by. Nor is God. But we are promised to see Him face to face. In order for that to happen we must become timeless as well. That is how Abraham saw Jesus' Day and WAS glad.
     
  10. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    Nope. I don't see anything in scripture which prescribes a universal salvation doctrine. From what Jesus said at John 5:28-29, some get life and others get condemnation.
    But neither do I assume to know what God can not or will not do.

    iakov the fool
     
  11. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    Do you mean "fully destroyed" as in the 7th Day Adventist/Jehovah's Witness "annihilation" teaching?
     
  12. freewill

    freewill Member

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    Do you then believe that all condemned souls even the least knowledgeable and least offensive of them will be made to endure terrible suffering forever?

    If so, can you start carefully explaining to me please, exactly where in the Bible such a doctrine comes from?
     
  13. dianegcook

    dianegcook Member

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    I don't know what those denominations believe on the subject, but that is what I believe according to God's word.
     
  14. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    Sure

    At John 5:28-29 (NKJV) Jesus said: … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

    At Mat 25:31-46 (NKJV) Jesus said: When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.


    Then the King will say to those on His right hand, “Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.


    Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, “Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?”


    And the King will answer and say to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.”


    Then He will also say to those on the left hand, “Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.”


    Then they also will answer Him, saying, “Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?”


    Then He will answer them, saying, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.”


    And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.


    At Romans 6:2-10 (NKJV) Paul said: (God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

    iakov the fool
     
  15. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    The Jehovah's Witnesses are not a Christian denomination since they deny the Trinity.
    The 7th Day Adventists do not deny the trinity but they do have some very strange teachings, the annihilation of the wicked being one of them.
    It may be what you believe but annihilation of the condemned is not according to God's word.

    iakov the fool
     
  16. dianegcook

    dianegcook Member

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    Jim
    Everlasting punishment , is just that, no coming back, final...
    In Psa.37:20 it states
    The wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs, they shall consume, into smoke shall they consume away...
    God is a consuming fire, it consumes the evil..
    The fat of lambs hit the fire and smokes, the smoke goes up 4ever...
    Rev.14:11 it states
    And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever, they have no rest day nor night...
    Jesus is our rest...
    In Rev.21:4 it states
    God shall wipe away all our tears from their eyes, there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither anymore pain, for the former things are passed away..
    How could that be if Uncle Fred, is being tormented?
    I just don't believe that merciful God could be that cruel...
    They will be blotted out, erased, as if they never existed...
     
  17. chessman

    chessman Member

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    Who's the you/we in this passage? Brothers (believers) or non-brothers (non-believers)?
     
  18. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    Jesus is the rest of those who believe and are saved, not the of those who do not believe and are condemned.
    The condemned have "no rest day nor night..."
    That also refers to those who believe and are saved, not to those who do not believe and are condemned.
    Then you just don't believe what Jesus specifically said at Mat 25:46 “And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
    It is man's choice to believe Jesus or reject Jesus. We get what we choose; eternal life or eternal punishment.
    Jhn 3:14-19 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

    iakov the fool
     
  19. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    In this passage, Paul is talking to believers.
    But the words "the dead" ( and the dead will be raised imperishable,) refers to all mankind because all mankind will be resurrected. (I assume you believe in the resurrection.)
    At Mat 25:46 Jesus said that the condemned will "go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
    To experience everlasting punishment one must exist everlastingly. That requires that one be immortal and imperishable.

    iakov the fool
     
  20. chessman

    chessman Member

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    I prefer Paul's view:

    1 Corinthians 15:42-43 (LEB)Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruptibility. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.

    Yes I do. I assume, however, that you do not believe that the resurrection of the dead that Paul speaks of here is the resurrection of the lost. Do you think the lost's bodies are raised in glory?
     

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