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Why don't you deal with the biblical evidence I provided that demonstrated that a human being/soul DOES NOT have a pre-existence?
you really didnt provide any. Eve is the mother of all living and Adam dies? our soul comes from Eve?

Please use ALL of the Scripture to reach your conclusions and not cherry-pick verses.
i did and posted some. cherry pick lol umm . . . ok, i prefer to read the scriptures and not read them through the man made doctrine filters.

Acts 7:59 (NIV) states: 'While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."' So where did Stephen's inner being go at death? Back to the Lord Jesus' presence because he was a believer.
it went back to the Father where according to you it did not exist.


Here we have an interesting OT verse that speaks of what happens at death: Ecclesiastes 12:7 (ESV), “And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it”. Other translations are: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” (KJV); “and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it” (NIV).

Some who support annihilation for the unbeliever at death want to translate ‘spirit’ as ‘breath’. None of these translations (quoted above) uses “breath” instead of “spirit”. Why? Because that is not what the word means in context. See the support for “spirit” translated as “breath” by the Seventh-Day Adventists HERE.

How do we know that “spirit” in Eccl. 12:7 does not mean “breath”?

If we look at the context in Eccl. 12:5, it states what is happening at death, “Man is going to his eternal home, and the mourners go about the streets” (ESV). What happens at death as breath ceases is not what is stated in Eccl. 12. It is referring to human beings going to their “eternal home”, which means at death, “The dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it” (ESV). How do we know?

Eccl. 3:21 asks, “Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?” (KJV). The implication is that the spirit of beasts perishes with the body (goeth downward to the earth), but the human spirit survives death (as in Eccl. 12:5-7). It is inaccurate contextually to say that “the breath of man goeth upward”. Why? Because at death, the breath ceases but the person lives on.

Psalm 104:29 also emphasises that the breath ceases at death: “Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust” (KJV). Cf. Gen. 3:19; Job 10:9; Ps. 90:3; 103:14; and Eccl. 3:20.

Oz

breath/spirit/soul, i will call it that part of you that returns to the Most High. the bible is pretty clear that this part of us does not fizzle out into non existence, it says it returns to where it came from, where IMO it existed before.
 
the breath that goes back to the Most High?

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 2:7&version=KJV

If Adam’s soul pre-existed Gen 7:2, how come it says he “became” a living soul then?

the Most High knew Jeremiah before he was born
Which is one of the attributes of being God.
Did you know Jeremiah before you were born?
 
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 2:7&version=KJV

If Adam’s soul pre-existed Gen 7:2, how come it says he “became” a living soul then?
because the physical body can not live without the soul. the physical body is not the question, its that part that comes from the Father. did that part exist before or not?

Which is one of the attributes of being God.
Did you know Jeremiah before you were born?
the Most High knows all things, there was something of Jeremiah that the Father knew before he was born, what was that?
 
its that part that comes from the Father. did that part exist before or not?
Not according to Gen 2:7. Adam “became” a living soul after God forned him of the dust and breathed into his nostrils.

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 2:7&version=KJV

the Most High knows all things, there was something of Jeremiah that the Father knew before he was born, what was that?
His father. His grandfather. His name. His future. Pretty much everything about Jerimaiah’s past and future. But that’s not an answer to my questions.

Where you going to provide an answer to either of my questions?

I asked;
If Adam’s soul pre-existed Gen 7:2, how come it says he “became” a living soul then?

You replied;
because the physical body can not live without the soul.

Not sure how you know this to be true (see Matt 10:28), but that’s beside the point

You’re not addressing the fact that the Text says man “became” a living soul after the Earth was created but before the Garden. If Adam’s soul pre-existed that day, then it didn’t come into existence (became) that day.

Were you going to answer ⬇️
Did you know Jeremiah before you were born?
 
Not according to Gen 2:7. Adam “became” a living soul after God forned him of the dust and breathed into his nostrils.

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 2:7&version=KJV[
what was that breath? the part that came from the Father and returns to the Father.

His father. His grandfather. His name. His future. Pretty much everything about Jerimaiah’s past and future. But that’s not an answer to my questions.
no idea what your talking about here

Where you going to provide an answer to either of my questions?
i did,
because the physical body can not live without the soul.

Not sure how you know this to be true (see Matt 10:28), but that’s beside the point

i never said my words are equal to scripture and no truth exist outside my words, i could be wrong but thats my answer. IMO a man with no soul is not a man.

You’re not addressing the fact that the Text says man “became” a living soul after the Earth was created but before the Garden. If Adam’s soul pre-existed that day, then it didn’t come into existence (became) that day.
if the text said the soul came into existence, then you would have a point, it says the man became a living soul once the breath from the Most High combined with the substance from earth.

Were you going to answer ⬇️
lol umm no?? did you know him? im not the creator.
 
Is it stated in scripture that Jesus DID open the gates of heaven upon His death?
I can't find this...
Revelation 4:1 KJV
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

This is the preamble to seeing Jesus hidden in our heart.
Verse 2
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

And 3 hours later I am still into the anatomy of the pericardial sac in the sunshine.

Redneck
eddif
 
Jesus taught that believers could become sons of the Most High, is it that far fetched to believe sons of the Most High can become men?
 
Jesus taught that believers could become sons of the Most High, is it that far fetched to believe sons of the Most High can become men?
The Son of the most high became A man / Jesus.

Fallen angels may have interacted with mankind.


To make all this ongoing can lead into vain imagination. To insert your ego in some places leads to vanity.

Redneck
eddif
 
Oz,
In the Conclusion of your article "Do Christians Go to Heaven When They Die?"
you stated:

Whether in Old or New Testaments, the Bible is clear on where believers go at death. They go into the presence of the Lord God that is called variously paradise, heaven, the Father’s house and Abraham’s bosom.

They go into the presence of the Lord, agreed...
But WHERE?
Paradise and Hades is the same, as I understand it.
Abraham's Bossom is also Paradise or Hades (based on Luke 16:19-31)
The Father's House and Heaven, instead, is what I understand to be HEAVEN.

All these places are in the presence of God, but not all are in "heaven"...our final resting place.

Also, I've always understood myself, that when we die we go directly to heaven because Jesus tore the veil to the Holy of Holies and opened the gates of heaven which were closed before, thus the necessity for faithful believers to go to Abraham's Bosson aka Hades aka Paradise, where they await the end of time and THEN they go to heaven.

Is it stated in scripture that Jesus DID open the gates of heaven upon His death?
I can't find this...

wondering,

I explain further in my article, Abraham’s bosom and heaven

Where are Paradise, heaven, the Father's house, and Abraham's bosom?


Abraham’s bosom and the third heaven

How can ‘Abraham’s bosom’ refer to the third heaven if it existed before Jesus’ death? That is a presumption some make. The story is recorded before Jesus’ death in Luke 16, but was the story told by Jesus before his death? Was it historical narrative or parable? That has been the discussion by Bible scholars and teachers for many years.

What is the third heaven? Three heavens are identified in Scripture:

The first heaven is associated with the firmament, which refers to the sky and is called ‘the heavens’ – the earth’s atmosphere (examples are in Genesis 2:19; 7:3, 23; Psalm 8:8).

The second heaven is a reference to outer space, the starry heavens (Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29).

The third heaven is the language Paul used in 2 Corinthians 12:2 (ESV), ‘I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows’. Then in the next verse (2 Cor 12:3 ESV), this ‘third heaven’ was associated with paradise: ‘And I know that this man was caught up into paradise – whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows’.

So, paradise seems to a part of the third heaven. But where is it located. I don't think I can conclude any more specifically than where the throne of God is situated.

Therefore, the third heaven is the place where God and the angels (and human beings) live. In the Old Testament it is called ‘the heaven of heavens’ (see Deut 10:14) and ‘the highest heaven(s)’ (1 Kings 8:27; Psalm 148:4). The language of Psalm 2:4 explains another dimension of the third heaven, ‘He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision’. Here location of God is called ‘the heavens’. The context of Psalm 2:4 in Psalm 2:1-3 is the nations raging, the people plotting and the kings and rulers opposing the Anointed God.

There is an excellent article explaining these three uses of heaven on the Let Us Reason Ministries website, ‘How many heavens are there and what is the third heaven Paul speaks of in 2 Corinthians 12?

The ESV translates Luke 16:22 for ‘Abraham’s bosom’ as meaning ‘the poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side’.

There is a long-standing debate over whether this is an actual incident from Jesus or a parable told by Jesus. I accept it as a parable (some contest that a real name, Lazarus, cannot mean a parable and makes it an incident) which means there was only one primary point to be made. I accept it as an illustration of what happens at death for the believer and the unbeliever. I will not discuss further the parable, non-parable views as they are detailed and not easy to resolve. The place to resolve that is to go to commentaries for detailed discussions on such.

At death, believers and unbelievers enter what is known as the Intermediate State. See: The Intermediate State for believers and unbelievers: Where do they go at death?

Before Christ’s resurrection, both believers and unbelievers went to Sheol/Hades – two separate places in that location (see Isa 14:9-20; 44:23; Ezek 32:21; Lk 16:22-23). After the resurrection, believers go to be with Christ (Phil. 1:23) which is better than Hades. According to 2 Cor. 5:6-9, believers are present with the Lord and are worshipping with the angelic hosts in heaven (Heb. 12:22-23).


We understand that Christ went to Hades at death (see Acts 2:31). When Jesus was in Hades, Peter explains that Christ was proclaiming to “the spirits now in prison” (1 Peter 3:18-22).

However, in the Gospel records (e.g. Luke 23:43), Paradise refers to the section of Hades reserved for the righteous. By the time of Paul’s writing in 2 Cor. 12:2-4, Paradise seems to have been taken out of Hades and is now the third heaven.

So, with progressive revelation, we understand that after the resurrection of Jesus, the believer who dies goes to heaven at death and there awaits the future resurrection to the eternal state.

This article in GotQuestions? gives a helpful summary of the meaning of Abraham’s bosom:


Abraham’s bosom is referred to only once in the Bible—in the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). It was used in the Talmud as a synonym for heaven. The image in the story is of Lazarus reclining at a table leaning on Abraham’s breast—as John leaned on Jesus’ breast at the Last Supper—at the heavenly banquet. There are differences of opinion about what exactly Abraham’s bosom represents. Those who believe the setting of the story is a period after the Messiah’s death and resurrection see Abraham’s bosom as synonymous with heaven. Those who believe the setting to be prior to the crucifixion see Abraham’s bosom as another term for paradise. The setting is really irrelevant to the point of the story, which is that wicked men will see the righteous in happiness, and themselves in torment, and that a “great gulf” exists between them (Luke 16:26) which will never be spanned.

Therefore, the expression ‘Abraham’s bosom’ could refer to something similar to the OT, ‘As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace’ (Gen 15:15 NASB), i.e. gathered to his people. It could refer to the expectation to be received by Abraham (Apocrypha 4 Macc 13:17 NRSV; Talmud and Hebraica, ch 16.20).

As for Paradise and Hades being the same place (based on Luke 16), I don't see it that way. These two verses state, '22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side" (Lk 16:22-23 NIV).

These 2 verses seem to indicate that Abraham's side/bosom and Hades were in a 2 section 'compartment', one which was a place of comfort and the other a place of torment. I understand this story/parable was told by Jesus before his crucifixion, so it was in the Old Covenant.

The issue in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is to differentiate between the nature of the place where the righteous person was – in paradise and experiencing comfort, compared with where the wicked person was at death – in torment in Hades. Between these two places a ‘great gulf’ is fixed that cannot be bridged (Luke 16:26).

Oz
 
ok, i prefer to read the scriptures and not read them through the man made doctrine filters.

Are you trying to convince me that there are no human doctrines that have affected your understanding of Scripture?

Your teaching on the pre-existence of the soul sure sounds like your view is affected by a human-made doctrine not found in Scripture.

Oz
 
Hello everyone,

If, like Calvinists and many other evangelical Christians, you happen to believe the souls of all men will live forever, could you explain to me please exactly where in the Bible such a doctrine comes from? The reason I ask is because I am a Christian who has regularly attended an evangelical church these last 19 years… https://0testsite00.wordpress.com/2016/09/01/immortality-vs-mortality/


I have started a new thread We are not saved by faith alone as Martin Luther inferred..... Here is the Biblical evidence . You may want to read that / participate. It answers your question I believe.
 
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IMO a man with no soul is not a man.
Which is an opinion contrary to the generations that Gen 2 describes, not to mention contrary to simple logic.

Did you really just say ‘a man ... is not a man’?

I (and logic) would say a man with no handkerchief is a man. Sure, this particular man has no handkerchief. But he’s a man, nonetheless.

I would say a man with no soul is a man. Sure, this man has no soul. But he’s a man, nonetheless.

I would say a man with no living soul is a man. Sure, this man has no living soul. But he’s a man, nonetheless.

what was that breath?
That which God blew into the man’s nostrils after the man was formed but before he became a living soul. And notice how the Text indeed says the “man” was formed first then came the breath (he “became” a living soul, which contradicts your opinion).

These are the generations of heaven and earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh God made earth and heaven — before any plant of the field was on earth, and before any plant of the field had sprung up, because Yahweh God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was no human being to cultivate the ground, but a stream would rise from the earth and water the whole face of the ground— when Yahweh God formed the man of dust from the ground, and he blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. And Yahweh God planted a garden in Eden in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Genesis 2:4-8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 2:4-8&version=LEB

Can you explain why the Text refers to the man’s nostrils (his nostrils) before he became a living soul, on your view?

There’s an explicit progression (generations) depicting ordered- in-time creation to Gen 2:

These are the generations of heaven and earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh God made earth and heaven:

For example — before any plant of the field was on earth, and before any plant of the field had sprung up, a stream would rise from the earth and water the whole face of the ground— [Water came before plants]

Then God formed the man of dust from the ground, [dust came before man]

Then God blew into his nostrils (into the Man’s nostrils) the breath of life. [Which contradicts your opinion, below ⬇️, Man came before the breath, obviously]

Then the man became a living soul.
[man came before he became a “living soul”]

Then God planted a garden in Eden in the east, [the East came before Eden]

Then he put the man whom he had formed in the garden. [the garden came before God put the man there]

Simple logic and the Text precludes your opinion ⬇️

IMO a man with no soul is not a man.

if the text said the soul came into existence, then you would have a point,
That’s what the word “became” means. It was man who became a living soul, not a soul who became a man, per the Text.

did you know him?
No, I was not a living soul before Jerimaiah became one. That’s the point.
 
The Son of the most high became A man / Jesus.

Fallen angels may have interacted with mankind.


To make all this ongoing can lead into vain imagination. To insert your ego in some places leads to vanity.

Redneck
eddif
Good post.
Amen.
 
Which is an opinion contrary to the generations that Gen 2 describes, not to mention contrary to simple logic.

Did you really just say ‘a man ... is not a man’?

I (and logic) would say a man with no handkerchief is a man. Sure, this particular man has no handkerchief. But he’s a man, nonetheless.

I would say a man with no soul is a man. Sure, this man has no soul. But he’s a man, nonetheless.

I would say a man with no living soul is a man. Sure, this man has no living soul. But he’s a man, nonetheless.


That which God blew into the man’s nostrils after the man was formed but before he became a living soul. And notice how the Text indeed says the “man” was formed first then came the breath (he “became” a living soul, which contradicts your opinion).

These are the generations of heaven and earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh God made earth and heaven — before any plant of the field was on earth, and before any plant of the field had sprung up, because Yahweh God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was no human being to cultivate the ground, but a stream would rise from the earth and water the whole face of the ground— when Yahweh God formed the man of dust from the ground, and he blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. And Yahweh God planted a garden in Eden in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Genesis 2:4-8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 2:4-8&version=LEB

Can you explain why the Text refers to the man’s nostrils (his nostrils) before he became a living soul, on your view?

There’s an explicit progression (generations) depicting ordered- in-time creation to Gen 2:

These are the generations of heaven and earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh God made earth and heaven:

For example — before any plant of the field was on earth, and before any plant of the field had sprung up, a stream would rise from the earth and water the whole face of the ground— [Water came before plants]

Then God formed the man of dust from the ground, [dust came before man]

Then God blew into his nostrils (into the Man’s nostrils) the breath of life. [Which contradicts your opinion, below ⬇️, Man came before the breath, obviously]

Then the man became a living soul.
[man came before he became a “living soul”]

Then God planted a garden in Eden in the east, [the East came before Eden]

Then he put the man whom he had formed in the garden. [the garden came before God put the man there]

Simple logic and the Text precludes your opinion ⬇️




That’s what the word “became” means. It was man who became a living soul, not a soul who became a man, per the Text.


No, I was not a living soul before Jerimaiah became one. That’s the point.
You've confused me Chessman...
First you said a man could be a man even without a soul.
I disagree with this. A man without a soul is a dead shell.

Then you said that God created the man first and then breathed into him and he became a living soul.

To be human, a person must have a
body and a
soul.

Is this what you're saying??

P.S. I do agree that first we get a body and then a soul.
I don't know of any religion except those that believe in reincarnation that state we get a soul put into a body...IOW, the opposite of what we believe.
 
First you said a man could be a man even without a soul.
Because that’s exactly the way Gen 2:7 describes what occurred. Let’s start with a clean slate to the answer to a couple of questions. Giving an equal opportunity for the answers:

Question 1: Does the following Text describe the Garden being formed before or after the man was placed there?

The Lord God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.
Genesis 2:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 2:8&version=NASB

I say the garden came first based on what Gen 2:8 says. What say you?
[God placed the man INTO the pre-existing garden.]

Question 2: Does the following Text describe the man being formed before or after the breath of life was breathed into the man?

Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being [soul, KJV].​
Genesis 2:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 2:7&version=NASB

I say the man was formed first based on what Gen 2:7 says. What say you?
[God breathed the breath of life INTO the pre-existing man.]


A man without a soul is a dead shell.
With all due respect, to take the Text seriously, is to recognize that just as the Garden was a garden before the man was placed into it, the man was a man before the breath of life was breathed into “his nostrils”.

To be human, a person must have a
body and a
soul.
So, on this view, is Paul being absent his body now, no longer a human? Or is he a human, at home with the Lord?

we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Corinthians 5:8&version=NASB

I don't know of any religion except those that believe in reincarnation that state we get a soul put into a body..

Native Americans believe Animism which includes the idea that all natural things within the universe (including birds, rivers, trees, etc.) have souls. This is why they use birds feathers as sacred head dressings. Thinking the various birds’ feathers contain the various bird’s spirit/soul and thus being gifted by one kind or another means that bird’s spirit resides along with that person’s spirit. An eagle’s feather being the highest (most high) flying spirit, is thought to come from the gods of heaven (being many gods in heaven). A bluejay feather is thought to be a spirit of loud mischief and trickery (kind of like the bluejay acts). Whereas the eagle feather is the ‘most high’ from among the many.

What I have shown from Gen 2, however, is that for Adam (the first man anyway) he was a man formed by the one (and only One) Creator before he had the breath of life breathed “into him” by the Creator. The Bible says so, sorry.
 
Hello everyone,

If, like Calvinists and many other evangelical Christians, you happen to believe the souls of all men will live forever, could you explain to me please exactly where in the Bible such a doctrine comes from? The reason I ask is because I am a Christian who has regularly attended an evangelical church these last 19 years… https://0testsite00.wordpress.com/2016/09/01/immortality-vs-mortality/
I don't think we an study something we can't see, touch or feel except in our own being. For example what nourishes Spirit?
Why don't you deal with the biblical evidence I provided that demonstrated that a human being/soul DOES NOT have a pre-existence?

Please use ALL of the Scripture to reach your conclusions and not cherry-pick verses.

Acts 7:59 (NIV) states: 'While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."' So where did Stephen's inner being go at death? Back to the Lord Jesus' presence because he was a believer.

We are dealing here with life-after-death issues for believer and non-believer. I've written elsewhere about where believers go at death:
Do Christians go to heaven when they die?

What about non-believers at death? See: Where will unbelievers go at death?

Ecclesiastes 12:7, death and the spirit
images
Here we have an interesting OT verse that speaks of what happens at death: Ecclesiastes 12:7 (ESV), “And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it”. Other translations are: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” (KJV); “and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it” (NIV).

Some who support annihilation for the unbeliever at death want to translate ‘spirit’ as ‘breath’. None of these translations (quoted above) uses “breath” instead of “spirit”. Why? Because that is not what the word means in context. See the support for “spirit” translated as “breath” by the Seventh-Day Adventists HERE.

How do we know that “spirit” in Eccl. 12:7 does not mean “breath”?

If we look at the context in Eccl. 12:5, it states what is happening at death, “Man is going to his eternal home, and the mourners go about the streets” (ESV). What happens at death as breath ceases is not what is stated in Eccl. 12. It is referring to human beings going to their “eternal home”, which means at death, “The dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it” (ESV). How do we know?

Eccl. 3:21 asks, “Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?” (KJV). The implication is that the spirit of beasts perishes with the body (goeth downward to the earth), but the human spirit survives death (as in Eccl. 12:5-7). It is inaccurate contextually to say that “the breath of man goeth upward”. Why? Because at death, the breath ceases but the person lives on.

Psalm 104:29 also emphasises that the breath ceases at death: “Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust” (KJV). Cf. Gen. 3:19; Job 10:9; Ps. 90:3; 103:14; and Eccl. 3:20.

Oz
I would state the spirit of a person is formed in the body which grows in their mothers womb. No preexistance prior to that birth. The only exception being Jesus as I state the Son who was,(his spirit), was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him.
Zech 12:1 RSV
The word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus says the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:
Hebrew 10:5 NIV
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
 
Because that’s exactly the way Gen 2:7 describes what occurred. Let’s start with a clean slate to the answer to a couple of questions. Giving an equal opportunity for the answers:

Question 1: Does the following Text describe the Garden being formed before or after the man was placed there?

The Lord God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.
Genesis 2:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 2:8&version=NASB

I say the garden came first based on what Gen 2:8 says. What say you?
[God placed the man INTO the pre-existing garden.]

Question 2: Does the following Text describe the man being formed before or after the breath of life was breathed into the man?

Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being [soul, KJV].​
Genesis 2:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 2:7&version=NASB

I say the man was formed first based on what Gen 2:7 says. What say you?
[God breathed the breath of life INTO the pre-existing man.]



With all due respect, to take the Text seriously, is to recognize that just as the Garden was a garden before the man was placed into it, the man was a man before the breath of life was breathed into “his nostrils”.


So, on this view, is Paul being absent his body now, no longer a human? Or is he a human, at home with the Lord?

we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Corinthians 5:8&version=NASB



Native Americans believe Animism which includes the idea that all natural things within the universe (including birds, rivers, trees, etc.) have souls. This is why they use birds feathers as sacred head dressings. Thinking the various birds’ feathers contain the various bird’s spirit/soul and thus being gifted by one kind or another means that bird’s spirit resides along with that person’s spirit. An eagle’s feather being the highest (most high) flying spirit, is thought to come from the gods of heaven (being many gods in heaven). A bluejay feather is thought to be a spirit of loud mischief and trickery (kind of like the bluejay acts). Whereas the eagle feather is the ‘most high’ from among the many.

What I have shown from Gen 2, however, is that for Adam (the first man anyway) he was a man formed by the one (and only One) Creator before he had the breath of life breathed “into him” by the Creator. The Bible says so, sorry.
That is nonsense. You are corkscrewing scripture. the scriptures show some of the process of the creation of Adam and proves he was not alive before God breathed the breath of life into him
 
the scriptures show some of the process of the creation of Adam and proves he was not alive before God breathed the breath of life into him
Please quote where I said Adam was alive before God breathed the breath of life into him. I never said that. You’ve misunderstood me. What I said was that God formed man, then breathed the breath of life into the man’s nostrils. Which is correct, that’s what Scripture says. The dust became a man (by God’s creation), the man then became a living being/soul (by God’s creation). Simple and Scriptural.

Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, [step 1]
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; [step 2]
and man became a living
being/soul.

To claim a soul became the first man is a reversal of Scripture’s teaching.

God breathed the breath of life into “his nostrils”, man’s nostrils. People miss that fact of Scripture. I’m simply pointing it out.

I can’t help the fact that Scripture says God breathed into “his nostrils” and then that man became a living being/soul. I just go with what’s written.
 
Because that’s exactly the way Gen 2:7 describes what occurred. Let’s start with a clean slate to the answer to a couple of questions. Giving an equal opportunity for the answers:

Question 1: Does the following Text describe the Garden being formed before or after the man was placed there?

The Lord God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.
Genesis 2:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 2:8&version=NASB

I say the garden came first based on what Gen 2:8 says. What say you?
[God placed the man INTO the pre-existing garden.]
No need to read.
God PREPARED the Garden for man.
So the garden came first
and then came man


Question 2: Does the following Text describe the man being formed before or after the breath of life was breathed into the man?

Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being [soul, KJV].​
Genesis 2:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 2:7&version=NASB

I say the man was formed first based on what Gen 2:7 says. What say you?
[God breathed the breath of life INTO the pre-existing man.]
God FORMED man.
He was not a living being UNTIL God breathed life into him.



With all due respect, to take the Text seriously, is to recognize that just as the Garden was a garden before the man was placed into it, the man was a man before the breath of life was breathed into “his nostrils”.
Read Genesis 1:2
The earth was formless. So God had to give the earth FORM BEFORE it came to life.
Could man have lived on the earth BEFORE God put plants and animals on it for food?
No. The earth was just a form and dead BEFORE plants and animals were put on it for man.

Man had a FORM, just like the earth did, but was he a live human being or just a form?
He was NOT a human being. Human beings have souls.


So, on this view, is Paul being absent his body now, no longer a human? Or is he a human, at home with the Lord?

we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Corinthians 5:8&version=NASB

Does Paul have a soul when he dies and goes to be with his Lord?
His SOUL is what let's him be a human.
No soul.
No man.



Native Americans believe Animism which includes the idea that all natural things within the universe (including birds, rivers, trees, etc.) have souls. This is why they use birds feathers as sacred head dressings. Thinking the various birds’ feathers contain the various bird’s spirit/soul and thus being gifted by one kind or another means that bird’s spirit resides along with that person’s spirit. An eagle’s feather being the highest (most high) flying spirit, is thought to come from the gods of heaven (being many gods in heaven). A bluejay feather is thought to be a spirit of loud mischief and trickery (kind of like the bluejay acts). Whereas the eagle feather is the ‘most high’ from among the many.

What I have shown from Gen 2, however, is that for Adam (the first man anyway) he was a man formed by the one (and only One) Creator before he had the breath of life breathed “into him” by the Creator. The Bible says so, sorry.

All very nice about the Native Americans. But they're wrong.
There's a religion that believes that God is in everything.
But it's not the Christian religion.

Read Genesis again.
Something that has the FORM of a man, is not necessarily a man.
Have you ever been to the wax museum in NY or London?

No Soul.
No man.
 
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