The stumbling blocks of reformed doctrines

[MarkT]

I know. I believe I have said the same thing. I also said that it makes no sense, that if Adam knew and willingly disobeyed God while the woman needed to be deceived into disobeying, that the man should have authority over the woman. If that's the case, then why not put the fox in charge of the henhouse?

I was going to say the same thing. But if Eve caused Adam to sin it would make her a transgressor, as Paul said. But then Adam was deceived. But Paul said he wasn't deceived. Oh well.

 

[childeye]

Wasnt the law given so folks would know what was right and what was wrong?

When I first heard the commandments, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not murder, I thought to myself, but of course, I knew that. I have Love in me. I know to pet a puppy and care for it, and not to hurt it. Apart from keeping the Sabbath Holy, I already know right and wrong without the commandments.

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Pro_6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

Is that really what Life is?

Just smile childeye just smile..

Okay...

 

[reba]

Pro_6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

the wages of sin is death... so yes it is LIFE

 

[childeye]

I was going to say the same thing. But if Eve caused Adam to sin it would make her a transgressor, as Paul said. But then Adam was deceived. But Paul said he wasn't deceived. Oh well.

I chalk it up to semantics.

 

[childeye]

Pro_6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

the wages of sin is death... so yes it is LIFE

I don't think we're experiencing life, we're experiencing slow death. I realize that we learn through experience, I just want to learn it right.

 

[MarkT]

If Adam was convinced to eat as Reba said, because the woman didn't die, I suppose it could be said he was not deceived as in tricked into eating. It would be nice to know what Eve said to Adam. Perhaps "look I'm not dead, it's just as the serpent said".

Well that would count as a deception.

 

[MarkT]

So Adam was obedient until he saw Eve was not dead or wise for that matter, and then his character changed and he ate? That doesn't make sense.

I'm still not convinced Adam knew the fruit came from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[MarkT]

It's more likely she gave him the fruit and he ate just as Adam said. The Bible doesn't say anything about seeing she did not die as it has been suggested That would beg the question, how long did Adam wait to see if she would die. It also corrupts the word of God. The LORD said he listened to her voice. For all we know she could have just said, Eat this. Adam said she gave him the fruit. There's no reason to believe Eve told him it was the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. First, it would have been an admission of guilt. She had disobeyed the LORD. Would Adam have reacted by also eating? I don't think so.

And then there is the change in character. He was obedient and then for some reason he changed. He is obedient and then he knowingly sins? To stay in character, Adam could not have known.

And then there is Paul saying Adam wasn't deceived, and he names Eve as the transgressor. If Eve was deceived, it would also mean Adam was deceived, if he believed her, assuming she told him he wouldn't die. Why should we not believe Adam?

 

[Deborah13]

That makes sense to me.

Isn't doubting God lack of faith?

 

[reba]

There is more to this then Eve giving him the 'apple'.... She was the only woman Adam saw I doubt God made her unattractive. there is a difference between ..
Eat this
And
Honey want some of this...

 

[Deborah13]

Why should we not believe Adam?

Why should we not believe God.
There is so much more for us in this testimony than why did Adam do what he did. We know that he was not trusting God but we cannot say why, God just doesn't tell us. But what we should glean from it, is to always trust God, no matter how things look and no matter what someone else tells us.
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
I don't think 'naked' is talking about naked body flesh, but a naked soul. They had no sin and therefore no guilt in their conscience. So they could stand before God completely exposed, not trying to hide anything from Him.
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Now they knew that they had sinned against God, their souls were no longer guiltless, and they felt the burden of that guilt. They tried to cover it themselves by their work of making the fig leaf clothing, but it wasn't sufficient. Our works are never sufficient to cover our sin or to make us righteous before a holy God.
Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
God gave them grace and covered their naked souls and their guilt. If God had not done this they would not have been able to come before Him and their children would not have been able to come before Him, or to hear His voice calling them to repentance and salvation.
Gen 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
Gen 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
Ham was exposing his father's sin, he was his father's accuser, just as the old serpent is the accuser. But Shem and Japheth gave their father grace. They purposefully did not look at his sin and covered him in grace.
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Who would confess their faults to one like Ham, the accuser, the one who ridicules? But who feels safe to confess their sins to ones like Shem and Japheth, who will them grace, as the Lord gives grace?

 

[MarkT]

There is more to this then Eve giving him the 'apple'.... She was the only woman Adam saw I doubt God made her unattractive. there is a difference between ..
Eat this
And
Honey was some of this...

Not much more. We have two relevant facts; what Adam said and what the LORD said. Anything more than that comes from sin.

Adam listened to her voice and ate. You can look at it both ways. Adam knew the fruit was from the tree and she convinced him to eat and he ate, or Adam did not know, which suggests he was not deceived, as Paul said. 1 Tim. 2:14

I would urge people not to add their own vain imaginings to the Scriptures.

 

[MarkT]

Why should we not believe God.
There is so much more for us in this testimony than why did Adam do what he did. We know that he was not trusting God but we cannot say why, God just doesn't tell us. But what we should glean from it, is to always trust God, no matter how things look and no matter what someone else tells us.
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
I don't think 'naked' is talking about naked body flesh, but a naked soul. They had no sin and therefore no guilt in their conscience. So they could stand before God completely exposed, not trying to hide anything from Him.
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Now they knew that they had sinned against God, their souls were no longer guiltless, and they felt the burden of that guilt. They tried to cover it themselves by their work of making the fig leaf clothing, but it wasn't sufficient. Our works are never sufficient to cover our sin or to make us righteous before a holy God.
Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
God gave them grace and covered their naked souls and their guilt. If God had not done this they would not have been able to come before Him and their children would not have been able to come before Him, or to hear His voice calling them to repentance and salvation.
Gen 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
Gen 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
Ham was exposing his father's sin, he was his father's accuser, just as the old serpent is the accuser. But Shem and Japheth gave their father grace. They purposefully did not look at his sin and covered him in grace.
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Who would confess their faults to one like Ham, the accuser, the one who ridicules? But who feels safe to confess their sins to ones like Shem and Japheth, who will them grace, as the Lord gives grace?

The Bible doesn't say Adam didn't trust God. It says he feared God. Gen. 3:10 So maybe there was a lapse in fear.

 

[Deborah13]

The Bible doesn't say Adam didn't trust God. It says he feared God. Gen. 3:10 So maybe there was a lapse in fear.

When it says he feared God was after he sinned.

 

[reba]

Not much more. We have two relevant facts; what Adam said and what the LORD said. Anything more than that comes from sin.

Adam listened to her voice and ate. You can look at it both ways. Adam knew the fruit was from the tree and she convinced him to eat and he ate, or Adam did not know, which suggests he was not deceived, as Paul said. 1 Tim. 2:14

I would urge people not to add their own vain imaginings to the Scriptures.

I believe we have different ideas on what deceived means....
I see as doing what he wanted he was not deceived
de·ceive
dəˈsēv/
verb
past tense: deceived; past participle: deceived

1. (of a person) cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, typically in order to gain some personal advantage.
   "I didn't intend to deceive people into thinking it was French champagne"
   synonyms: swindle, defraud, cheat, trick, hoodwink, hoax,dupe, take in, mislead, delude, fool, outwit, lead on,inveigle, beguile, double-cross, gull; More
   
   • (of a thing) give a mistaken impression.
     "the area may seem to offer nothing of interest, but don't be deceived"
   • fail to admit to oneself that something is true.
     "enabling the rulers to deceive themselves about the nature of their own rule"
   • ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   • 
     
   • He just chose to eat He chose to sin He chose to listen to Eve over God...

 

[jasonc]

eve, It was her fault!. the man was innocent I tell ya!

 

[Deborah13]

eve, It was her fault!. the man was innocent I tell ya!

 

[jasonc]

lol.

 

[childeye]

Isn't doubting God lack of faith?

Yes, but I believe Adam doubted himself. In other words he probably felt and wanted to trust God, but he caved to whatever was opposing his better judgment. Happens to me.

 

[childeye]

I believe we have different ideas on what deceived means....
I see as doing what he wanted he was not deceived.

The problem is there are semantics. We don't know what Paul meant by "he was not the one deceived" 1 Timothy 2:14. That is a blame that Paul uses to justify Adam being in authority over the woman. However If Adam did what he wanted in willful disobedience to God while the woman had to be tricked into it, then it makes more sense that the woman should be in authority over the man. If he did what he wanted, then Eve had nothing to do with convincing him. What is the point then of scripture saying Satan is the Father of sin, if Adam wanted to sin all on his own?

He just chose to eat He chose to sin He chose to listen to Eve over God...

That is true, but the question is why?