The stumbling blocks of reformed doctrines

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by ivdavid, Jun 10, 2015.

  1. childeye

    childeye Member

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    I agree. What if he hadn't eaten? It's possible it would nag him the rest of his days, not knowing. That thought alone might be a tipping point for Adam. Did Adam take a tiny bite to see if God was true? Or did he take a big mouthful because he knew God was a liar?
     
  2. Sinthesis

    Sinthesis Member

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    I am interpreting this Adam/Eve episode in light of the Abraham/Isaac episode. Suppose Adam, prior to his own sin, assumed it was his duty to visit upon Eve, for her transgression, God's promised consequence. In that case Eve would be in the place that Isaac would later be with Abraham. Isaac asked Abraham a question (Gen 22:7). If Abraham had not faith in God, then Isaac's question combined with Abraham's love for his son would have kept him from preparing an otherwise abominable work, human sacrifice, for which his willingness to do so was attributed to him as righteousness. Eve might have asked Adam how he could give her up, as she was a gift from God. Instead of trusting God for the answer to this moral conflict, Adam chose to abandon his work of obedience and willingly joined Eve.
     
  3. childeye

    childeye Member

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    Thanks for that explanation. I suppose it's possible is the only thing I can say, since we are speculating. God stopped Abraham and supplied the sacrifice saying, that He only wanted to see if Abraham would give up his son in faith. Adam wasn't approached by God in this same manner. It is therefore difficult for me to relate the two instances.
     
  4. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    The Serpent told Eve God didn't want her to be like God knowing good and evil. He said, 'when you eat of the tree you will be like God, knowing good and evil.' Gen. 3:4 So thinking the fruit would make her wise, she deliberately rebelled against God; she took it upon herself to grasp equality. It was her desire, Gen. 3:6 to be equal to God, that made it easy to deceive her and to put her hand out to take from God what belonged to God. How is that excusable?

    I don't think Adam had the desire to be equal to God.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2015
  5. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    To understand Adam's sin you have to know life comes from the father. It is because he was the father that his sin and so death was passed on to all men.
     
  6. childeye

    childeye Member

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    Because she was deceived into doing it. Adam and Eve were both made in the image of God. Genesis 1:27. Therefore Eve was already like God and so was Adam. The subtlety of Satan's lie is getting her to accept a false pretense, that she isn't like God already without the knowledge of good and evil.
     
  7. childeye

    childeye Member

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    If you're talking about genetics, I agree.
     
  8. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    No she was not like God. She was a creature. You're saying she already knew good and evil? False.
     
  9. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    They had the intelligence and the ability to know, but they did not know good and evil in advance, before they ate of the tree.
     
  10. childeye

    childeye Member

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    She is a creature made in God's image. So no, I'm not saying she had the knowledge of good and evil. I'm saying she had Love, the light of mankind.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2015
  11. childeye

    childeye Member

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    I agree, but something is being corrupted here through this lie that is selling this knowledge, and I believe it is man's image of God, and subsequently man's image of himself. For we are created. And if our Creator is imperfect, then we being His handi-work, are compromised in our own belief in ourselves, and of each other because we are made by Him.

    I therefore also believe that what is good in us, is Eternal and we were made already having goodness/Love, endowed by our Maker. Otherwise there is nothing to corrupt and nothing to fall away from. And therefore I come to wonder if the knowledge of good and evil is only the introduction of evil into mankind's awareness.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2015
  12. MarkT

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    What are you talking about? Made in the image of God does not mean man is good. Nevertheless, let's stick to the story.

    Adam and Eve didn't know it was wrong to eat the fruit of the tree until after they ate. Then they knew the fear of God and they covered themselves. The Bible tells us Eve went for the fruit like a fish goes after a shiny lure. We don't have to guess. The Bible tells us flat out, "the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, Genesis 3:6 So it was the desire of the flesh and her desire to be like God that led her to eat. In what sense was she deceived? Well, she didn't know it was wrong to eat, but then again she was told she would die if she did. So regardless of the fact that she didn't know what she was doing was wrong, still she disobeyed the commandment. So the lesson here is you don't have to know something is a sin for sin to kill you; if you break his commandments you will die just the same.
     
  13. childeye

    childeye Member

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    Whoa, not so fast. Did Adam and Eve have Love/goodness when created? Did they first begin in faith and trust in God as their Maker? Is corruption in mankind directly related to one's image of God? I think these are legitimate questions and I also think the answers are yes.

    True, we die if we don't obey God, which is the same as saying we die when we don't trust God. I still think the lesson is as I stated above, that corruption is the product of a false image of god. And moreover, that God is Holy and True. The reason it matters to me whether it comes by willful disobedience or deception through ignorance has everything to do with walking away with the right lesson.
     
  14. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    Did they have love and goodness when they were created? I would think so. Every creature God created exhibits a form of love and goodness, especially towards their young. Did they begin in faith and trust? I don't know. Faith is in a promise so I wouldn't say faith. I think they had a basic understanding of death though. Did they believe God when he said they would die if they ate the fruit of the tree? I would say so, but that's not the same as trust. Is corruption in mankind directly related to one's image of God? Not sure what you mean here. You don't have to have an image of God to be corrupt. The wicked don't even believe in God. The ones who create idols and images are corrupt, but it's not the idol that corrupts them. They are corrupt who create the idols. What does this have to do with Adam and Eve?

    No. Trust is not the same. We believe God, and we trust in his goodness.

    Well, you're basing your conclusion on your answers to your own questions. That's not understanding.

    The statement that Adam was not deceived does not mean he chose to disobey, if he didn't know disobedience was wrong. It simply means the Serpent did not chose Adam to deceive. The implication is Adam would not have believed the Serpent.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2015
  15. childeye

    childeye Member

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    Okay if they had Love as in empathy, then they had goodness even before they had the knowledge of good and evil. That supports my belief that goodness is not obtained through the knowledge of good and evil. It suggests to me that the knowledge of good and evil is more like the awareness of evil in contrast with good. This also suggests that they do not need this knowledge to be good like God is good. They are endowed with goodness by the Creator Who made them. Hence the Word of God through which all things were created when He spoke, is the Light and Life of mankind. Mankind didn't need the knowledge of good and evil to become like God, they already were like God.

    Perhaps I should have asked you if they began in distrust of God, so that you would have better understood my question.


    I mean that the knowledge of Who He is, is what determines our moral character. If one has a corrupt image of god, then they are corrupted by it. So that is why the apostle says this: 2 Corinthians 4:6. Romans 8:29. 2 Corinthians 4:4.
    If someone doesn't believe God exists, this too is a false image of god.
    But the idol does corrupt them even because they don't esteem God as God.
    Because the serpent is presenting a false image of god to mankind through subtlety. It is meant to cause a doubt in God's Character, hence their faith in God is being attacked by causing someone to question for the first time Who they are putting their trust in. Apparently Adam trusted the woman who was deceived.

    No one obeys from the heart without putting trust in whom they are obeying. If we believe God is good then there is no way to justify rebellion. Yet it is Satan through the serpent saying, that God is a liar and that He is not good and justifying rebellion. So a false image of god is being presented here. And if believed upon it does corrupt the person who believes in it.

    I only ask the questions so that you understand my reasoning.

    I don't dispute that. That could be exactly what Paul means to say in 1 Timothy. I not only think it's entirely possible that someone innocent of evil could be conned into disobedience, I also think that is what happened.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2015
  16. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    Right. It is knowing right from wrong, good and evil.

    If they were good then how is it they disobeyed?
     
  17. SaraBeth

    SaraBeth Member

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    I was always under the impression that God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree that they would die. The serpent/devil came and told them nahhh you won't die. They decided to eat from the tree because it was beautiful, lush and as they were told they wouldn't die.

    Adam and Eve were deceived. Instead of listening to God they listened to the Devil instead. whether of not they had some goodness in them, God told them not to eat but they did anyways. The devil will always be the ultimate deceiver. Making everything look amazing and wonderful but its not. One of the many thing we have to deal with today is temptation.
     
  18. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    Sorry, but the Bible doesn't say anything about trust.

    No it doesn't. None of those passages say the knowledge of who He is determines our moral character.

    There's nothing about faith. There is nothing about trust. The Bible only says she gave some of the fruit to Adam and he ate.

    No false image of God led her to eat. God gave them a commandment. 'the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.” Gen. 2:16-17 It's got nothing to do with trust. The Bible doesn't say anything about justifying rebellion. It doesn't say anything about a false image. It was desire that made Eve eat. Do you think Eve was thinking about God's character? What did she know about lying? Nothing. This was before they ate, so she had no knowledge of lying or trust.
     
  19. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    Right on!
     
  20. childeye

    childeye Member

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    It says righteousness is by grace through faith. Scriptures says all of creation was built by faith. Without faith no one can please God. Faith is a prerequisite to understanding anything about God.

    Indeed they do. This is what being re-born of the spirit is pertaining to. Romans 8:29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    2 Corinthians 3:18
    But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
    Colossians 1:15
    Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    Colossians 3:10
    And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him.


    On the contrary, it's all about faith and it's all about trust and it's all about Who God is, either trustworthy or a liar. It's about deception in regards to those things. The lesson here is not check everything your wife gives you to eat.
    Then Satan words were unnecessary for her to eat.
    That means nothing if God is a liar.

    A desire that is only possible through a false image of God. The image of God was the first thing attacked by Satan according to scripture.
    Ye shall not surely die:
    5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    No I don't think she realized the implications towards God's Character, even because it happens through Satan's subtlety.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2015

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