The stumbling blocks of reformed doctrines

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by ivdavid, Jun 10, 2015.

  1. childeye

    childeye Member

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    There's nothing I disagree with you about. This is what happened. However, this is ultimately about whether Adam and Eve were disobedient through the means of deception and how that deception can reoccur in all of us. 2 Corinthians 11:3.
     
  2. childeye

    childeye Member

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    Because they were deceivable and without knowledge of guile.
     
  3. SaraBeth

    SaraBeth Member

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    Oh yes I agree. Satan is the ultimate deceiver. Making any sin love marvelous and beautiful but in all reality it's a cover. The devil will do anything to bring followers of Christ down and keep them there.
     
  4. childeye

    childeye Member

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    I watch my two grandchildren consistently want the toy that the other one has. What toy it is, doesn't matter. My point is that lust is formed in the imagination. The carnal mind finds fault where there isn't any. The carnal mind tries to fix what is not broken. Hence we don't appreciate what we have until after we lose it. The voice behind this futility is based upon a false image of god. That God is holding back from giving us what He has. As if God is self-serving or selfish. This false image is then projected by those who believe in it as true. It is a carnal view of god. 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man
     
  5. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    We're discussing Genesis. Stick to the story. Faith is in the promise of God. Understanding comes by hearing and it is a matter of the heart. So hearing and understanding and believing precede faith.

    No they don't. Sorry but you have no understanding. These verses are talking about his appearance, not his character. Jesus said seeing him was seeing the Father. Jesus was the image of the invisible God.
    John 14:9
    Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

    No it is not about faith. God gave them a commandment. He did not give them a promise. It's not about who God is. It's not about deception in regard to who God is.

    The Serpent did not call God a liar. That's your interpretation. And definitely Eve would not have understood him to mean God was a liar, because she had no knowledge of lying. That is why all he said was, 'you will not die'. The idea that the Serpent called God a liar is all in your mind. It was not in Eve's mind.

    He also suggested God did not want her to know good and evil because that would make her like God. That is the subtle deception which led to her desire. Eve did not know he was lying. The question of who was lying never entered her mind.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2015
  6. SaraBeth

    SaraBeth Member

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    I agree! Satan knew that she didn't have any thought about it only that she was told not to. No other thoughts or questions. She just did it because he told her that she would be like God!
     
  7. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    Right again!
     
  8. childeye

    childeye Member

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    Respectfully, I am sticking to the story. I'm talking about God's trustworthiness being put in question here by Satan. For the believer that's a faith issue. Something Adam and Eve didn't question before Satan's lies.

    Sure, I know hearing and understanding produces faith as in one must hear the Gospel to believe about it. But this episode in the Garden is a fall, where corruption enters in, not where Truth enters in. It's asking us to not trust God. So when I say faith is a prerequisite for understanding, I mean knowing God is trustworthy is understanding.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we were talking about the image of God defining our morality. All the verses I gave are about the Holiness of His character, His Glory. The knowledge of God is about His Character. Knowing God, is about knowing His Person. That's why I use those verses to show you that we are conformed to the image of Christ through faith that this is the Person of God, His righteousness and Love on display on a cross. Hence any corrupt image of god produces a corrupt morality, a corrupt righteousness.

    You have to have faith that God is telling the Truth in order to believe Him when He says, the day you eat of it , you will surely die. Otherwise there is no true cause for obedience. That is the reason why you're not supposed to eat of it, not just because He commanded it. Now Satan is essentially calling God a liar, and that is about God's Character. I don't see the problem with acknowledging that.

    You can call it my interpretation. When God says, "you will surely die" and Satan counters with, "you won't surely die" then I take that to mean that Satan is saying that God is not being the one more accurate. I don't think that is unreasonable.
    I agree she had no knowledge of lying. Satan doesn't even use the word liar. That doesn't change the fact that lies exist, and it certainly doesn't negate their ability to deceive.
    Hey, no fair claiming Eve's mind. After all it can't be said that she is not considering that the serpent is telling the truth in contradiction to God.
    .
    Which also is an attack on God's Character. Satan is implying that God keeps them down by denying them the thing that would make them His equal. You don't see that, huh?

    Yes I have already agreed with this many times. I have even said it also in earlier posts. That doesn't mean it is not happening. She's still being moved by a lie that disparages God. She's still accepting a false image of god, even though she doesn't know it. Even you don't know it with all this talk about the image of god not affecting our moral character. Her character is clearly seen as changed into a lust for more, whereas before she was content.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2015
  9. childeye

    childeye Member

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    So we know she was told not to eat lest they die. Then she is told she won't die and she will become like god. Are you saying she didn't ponder that what she was hearing are two conflicting messages?
     
  10. SaraBeth

    SaraBeth Member

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    Well it never mentions her thinking about it. Just that she was convinced at what the devil told her. Goes back to the devil being the ultimate deciever. Of course one would have to wonder about her thinking about the two sides but it all boils down to the temptation of being like God.
     
  11. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    To you she is accepting a false image of God. But a false image of God would be an idol, so your words don't make sense.

    On the one hand she has the commandment. On the other hand she sees the tree is good for food, and a delight to the eyes and it is to be desired to make one wise. The desire of the flesh wins out. Of course the Serpent was lying when he said she would not die, but Eve doesn't know that. What's lying? And to say it is happening is ridiculous; she doesn't know good and evil.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2015
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  12. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    Don't let childeye mix you up. You were right in the first place.
     
  13. SaraBeth

    SaraBeth Member

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    You would wonder yourself into circles with those types of questions. I just look at what was said.
     
  14. childeye

    childeye Member

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    True, an idol is a false image of god. I believe you when you say you can't make sense of my words. I will ask some questions to show what are my thoughts. What is this about any false image of god that God hates and despises over all things? What was the cause of Israel's sin in scripture? What's the reason or need, for God sending a True Image of Himself so as to believe in and be saved? Think about this and research these things. Look up the word 'image' and read all the passages where this word appears in scripture. Please keep in mind that I would like you to seek to know if the Image we hold of God to be true, determines our own moral character. Then we can discuss whether the devil sowed a false image of god in the garden and what is meant by Paul saying this, 2 Corinthians 11:3 . Here are some more scriptures to consider with this in mind.

    Deuteronomy 9:12
    And the Lord said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted themselves; they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image.
    Judges 2:19
    And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way.
    2 Corinthians 10:4-5[Full Chapter]
    (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
    Ephesians 4:13
    Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ
    2 Corinthians 4:4
    In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them
     
  15. childeye

    childeye Member

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    I thought it was a reasonable question.
     
  16. childeye

    childeye Member

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    I assure you, I am not trying to mix anyone up.
     
  17. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    What you have is Eve pondering good and evil and deciding or accepting God is evil/a liar. I'm saying that's false, because she did not know good and evil.

    Also, we are born with our moral character.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2015
  18. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    She was moved by her desire, the desire of the flesh, not by a false image of God, whatever that means. James 1:14,15

    Sorry. I don't agree. False words and false teachings can be planted, but I don't know what you mean by holding an image of God. Jesus was the image of God. We don't hold an image of God. We are conformed to the image of his Son. But even so, I am still me. I haven't changed. My dwelling changed, but aside from being free of sin and knowing a lot more than I did, I have not changed. Maybe it is because I am of God and God does not change. Jesus's character didn't change. The apostle's character did not change. Character does not change.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2015
  19. MarkT

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    In terms of good and evil, and right and wrong, I would say it is learned. But then again, a moral character would be required to learn. It depends on what you mean by moral character. Do you mean a believing heart? A spirit of understanding? These are things we are born with.

    In one respect, I have changed. I have become obedient to his word, where before, I did not know his word.

    So when you say her character changed into a lust for more, are you saying she sinned even before she ate?

    I would say without the knowledge of good and evil, there is no understanding of evil, and therefore there is no sin. I think the simple fact is Eve would have believed whatever she was told.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2015
  20. childeye

    childeye Member

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    A false image of God is any imagery of Him that is not true. Just as if someone slandered you or promoted an errant and deprecating depiction concerning your motives. I agree the flesh lusts, but that is only after believing that God is keeping something away from us for a sinister purpose. If Eve had believed that God was keeping something from her for a good reason, there can be no lust.

    Yes Jesus is the True Image of God. If you believe Jesus the son is the same way as His Father is, then you hold this image of God to be true.

    Of course Jesus' Character doesn't change, he was conceived by the Holy Spirit. He doesn't need to change, he is perfect as is. Of course the apostles changed, look at their testimony. You mean to tell me, you haven't changed since believing in the Christ? There is no Holy Spirit living in you causing you to change on the inside? 2 Corinthians 3:18,
    18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2015

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