The Virgin of the Lilies

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Cure of Ars, Jul 31, 2005.

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  1. Cure of Ars

    Cure of Ars Guest

    [​IMG]


    I like this painting by William Bouguereau entitled, The Virgin of the Lilies. I think it says a lot about the Catholic understanding of Mary. The center of our devotion to Mary consists in her relationship with Jesus. She is the mother of our Lord. In the painting Mary is holding Jesus but if you look close, it is like Mary is holding onto Jesus for support. It is as Jesus is a pillar suspended in midair and he supports Mary. Mary also has Jesus pressed against her heart with eyes closed in prayerful meditation. In contrast, the eyes of the child of Jesus are penetrating. They have wisdom and strength that are beyond a child. It is like they look through you to something deeper. Jesus’ right hand is making the sign of peace. In the background is a throne depicting Jesus as our King and consequently Mary as our Queen. The lilies at base of the throne symbolize Mary's purity, humility, and loving obedience to God's will.
     
  2. Lyric's Dad

    Lyric's Dad Guest

    But on the flip side is the fact that Mary is always the only one who is grown. Jesus is always depicted as a perpetual child, not the grown Lord who died for everyone, including Mary's sins. Mary is seated on the throne, holding Christ, not the reality of that Jesus is seated on the throne and Mary is worshiping Him like all the others who have been redeemed by His blood. Mary is given the typical crown of holiness in this painting, just like the one that Christ is wearing, signifying that she is somehow on par with the living God. Christ is naken while Mary is fully clothed. He looks helpless as Mary holds Him out for all to see.

    Mary is not the queen. She was a wonderful woman who was used of God to bring about His will. She was a sinner in need of grace. She was another person that was blessed to find a place in the story God was telling and in His plan to redeem the world.

    I really have such a hard time with the status Mary is given and I imagine that she does as well.
     
  3. Cure of Ars

    Cure of Ars Guest


    Jesus is not "always" depicted as a child. But paintings of Jesus as a child does portray a truth that God did become a baby and Mary was his mother. I don't know why this truth makes you uncomfortable.
     
  4. Lyric's Dad

    Lyric's Dad Guest

    What makes me uncomfortable is the continual portrait of Christ being the helpless child in the arms of the always powerful Mary. There are so many examples of this. I am sorry but Mary worship is a big problem. The statues and the sightings and the crying portraits. I am very disheartened by these things. The queen of heaven was a pagan god and this name has now been given to the mary of the RCC. And then came the push to make her known as co-redemptrix. Truly scary.
     
  5. Cure of Ars

    Cure of Ars Guest

    http://catholic-legate.com/articles/queentitle.html
     
  6. Pelagia

    Pelagia Guest

    Lyric's Dad wrote:

    Mary, the mother of God is the intecessor for us all. God chose her as His vessel. He chose to become born of flesh, through her.

    The teaching of the Annunciation when Archangel Gabriel brought her the news, is that her sin(the original sin) was cleansed. She had always been living in God's Grace, since she was presented in the Temple, at age 3(and lived there until the Annunciation). That's why God chose her to be the vessel of the God child, in the first place.

    Read how the Archangel greeted her: Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women! (Luke: 1:28)

    And also: Then the angel said to her, 'Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. (Luke 1:30).

    And yet you say she is need of grace?

    Really?? You know how she feels? That's odd. Since you don't even understand her status in God's eyes.

    But, she did say: Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word. (Luke: 1:39)

    Why do have the symbol of the fish and Cross, if you don't even respect the Mother that Christ chose?

    That's an odd concept. A potrait of a loving mother holding her precious child is a problem for you??

    I, personally, prefer the Byzantine icons. BTW, does anybody here know that she was 12 years old when she gave birth to our Saviour?

    In Christ,

    Pelagia
     
  7. Lyric's Dad

    Lyric's Dad Guest

    The teaching of the Annunciation when Archangel Gabriel brought her the news, is that her sin(the original sin) was cleansed. She had always been living in God's Grace, since she was presented in the Temple, at age 3(and lived there until the Annunciation). That's why God chose her to be the vessel of the God child, in the first place.

    Read how the Archangel greeted her: Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women! (Luke: 1:28)

    And also: Then the angel said to her, 'Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. (Luke 1:30).

    And yet you say she is need of grace?

    Really?? You know how she feels? That's odd. Since you don't even understand her status in God's eyes.

    But, she did say: Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word. (Luke: 1:39)

    Why do have the symbol of the fish and Cross, if you don't even respect the Mother that Christ chose?

    That's an odd concept. A potrait of a loving mother holding her precious child is a problem for you??

    I, personally, prefer the Byzantine icons. BTW, does anybody here know that she was 12 years old when she gave birth to our Saviour?

    In Christ,

    Pelagia[/quote:f8ae9]Sorry, you are merely putting forward catholic tradition here. Not what is backed by the Bible. I do not buy the catholic tradition. We have seen what their adherance to their traditions have brought about.
     
  8. Vic C.

    Vic C. Member

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    I'm not sure where any of this comes from and I am very interested in where the Bible teaches that Mary is an intecessor for ANYONE. :-?
     
  9. supernac

    supernac Guest

    Comes from the tradition of men.
     
  10. Pelagia

    Pelagia Guest

    Lyric's Dad wrote:

    I'm not catholic. I'm Orthodox Christian. And the Bible you quote was compiled by the Orthodox holy fathers in 325 A.D. at the First Ecumenical Council. Before that, there was no Bible. So what did they follow before the Bible existed? Nobody has been able to answer this yet. I feel, like I'm being ignored about it. What they followed was the oral tradition passed down from the Apostles and by their faith of the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, they chose the books that went into the Bible that you worship. So basically, you should give thanks to the holy men that choose the books of the Bible..who, BTW, were of the Orthodox tradition(before the West went into Schism of course. Please see my other posts for further details).

    Vic wrote:

    I'm not sure where any of this comes from and I am very interested in where the Bible teaches that Mary is an intecessor for ANYONE.

    How about John 2:1, at the wedding in Cana. She interceded for the people about the wine. She appealed to her Son to help them. And although, it looked like He refused, He still performed the miracle. The first miracle, by the way.

    The people at the wedding can be considered ANYONE, no? And it's in the Bible. You may say that it is nothing, but don't forget that it was also the FIRST miracle that Christ choose to do AND it was at the request of His mother.

    In Christ,

    Pelagia
     
  11. Vic C.

    Vic C. Member

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    Out of this we come up with the doctrine that Mary is an Intecessor for all? :o What about ALL the Scripture that says Jesus is the ONLY One that intercedes for us? When we intercede for each other, are we not taught to do it in Jesus' name? Where is it taught we should ask for anything in the name of Mary?

    All I learn from the Wedding passage is that Jesus was obedient in honoring God's commandments, namely the Fifth Commandment. Oh, I learn this too... Mary never asked Jesus to turn the water into wine. She only informed Him they had no wine.

    John 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
    John 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
    John 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.


    Hmm, "Whatsoever He saith unto you, do it." 8-)
     
  12. Really? What has "adherence to their traditions brought about" then? Let's be specific.

    I know what variance from traditions has brought about:
    • Montanism
      Marcionism
      Arianism
      Iconclasm
      The Filioque
      Papism
      The Great Schism
    and, last but most certainly not the least, 30 zillion sects stemming from the so-called Reformation, and all their attendant heresies.

    But I digress...please, what has adherence to their traditions brought about, LD?
     
  13. Pelagia

    Pelagia Guest

    Vic wrote:

    I don't disagree with you on this. The Orthodox faith which is the tradition since the Apostles, teaches the full truth. And within the 1000 years after the Resurrection, the teachings of the Apostles continued. But, all you look at are the letters in the Bible. You don't realize that there are lives that were lived for the faith after the Apostles. And I seriously doubt that anybody here even knows about how Mary died. Because, ya know, that it wasn't mentioned in the Bible, right? So, have you ever wondered what happened to her? She did go on living after Christ's Ascension. But, there's no mention of it. Does that make her obsolete...insignificant..useless? There IS a recording of her life and death.

    Plus, nobody still realizes that she was 12 when she gave birth to Christ? Cause it wasn't mentioned in the Bible either, but it is a fact. And that Joseph was, like 70 years old and had previous sons before(previous marriage)? One of them being James, called the brother of Christ, who also became the bishop of Jerusalem. And oh yeah, that the manager was not a stable, but a cave, in a mountain, because the farmers used the caves to keep their animals. These are facts that are not in the Bible, per se, but they are facts, just the same.

    If you focus only on the letter of the words in the Bible and don't pursue the life that was lived because of the Ressurection, then you are missing a whole lot of Christian living and facts.

    The ancient documents and oral traditions have preserved these facts, but the protestants are so cut away from the reality of the Church life that has been existing for 2000 years, that they refuse to acknowledge any facts. If you don't believe me, then do your own research.

    In Christ,

    Pelagia
     
  14. Lyric's Dad

    Lyric's Dad Guest

    These people followed the Word of God. Maybe the Bible had not yet been compiled but the writings were there. They were known and they did not have to twist things so severely to come to the conclusion of what God wanted for us. And worship the Bible I do not. I worship the One who wrote it, and for your information that was not Mary.

    That is your example of intercession? That is weak. So what? She asked the Lord to do something, knowing He could. Notice she did not do anything. I am surprised the "holy traditions" have not made it so but this is just a case where Mary stepped into a situation and pointed to Jesus, and not herself. People should consider this and take an example from it.
     
  15. Lyric's Dad

    Lyric's Dad Guest

    Really? What has "adherence to their traditions brought about" then? Let's be specific.

    I know what variance from traditions has brought about:
    • Montanism
      Marcionism
      Arianism
      Iconclasm
      The Filioque
      Papism
      The Great Schism
    and, last but most certainly not the least, 30 zillion sects stemming from the so-called Reformation, and all their attendant heresies.

    But I digress...please, what has adherence to their traditions brought about, LD?[/quote:5671d]Since the RCC does not stick to what God has to say but instead what man does through traditions, they have been able to create many great and wondrous things like Mary worship, indulgences, transubstantiation, pope idolatry, and so many other wonderful twistings of what God truly gave to us.
     
  16. Hold the phone. You accuse Catholics of Mary worship, yet offered this explanation of your veneration of scripture
    So what if Catholics say "we do not worship Mary, but the One she brought forth? Would you extend the contextual understanding that you request?

    Now, you had said
    And I asked
    You replied
    Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but those things are not what adherence to their traditions has brought about- those are your descriptions of some of the traditions that they hold to (allegedly).
    Again- what has come about due to Catholic adherence to tradition?
     
  17. Lyric's Dad

    Lyric's Dad Guest

    Okay fine. What has come about because of these traditions of the RCC is people in hell. These acts have taken people away from the grace of God and taken them to a man made religious system where you can buy people out of an invented purgatory or wipe clean the sins you have engaged in this past week. It has created millions of people who parade the image of Mary through the streets and hold her as co-redemptrix. Who pray to her and hold her in such high esteem that Jesus is taken back a notch. It has created people who hold the word of the current pope, which changes with each one, in higher esteem then the revealed Word of God. It has created a lot of mess where people are not seeking and finding the God of the Holy Bible but the god of the catholic tradition.
     
  18. Vic C.

    Vic C. Member

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    I am well aware of the many who were martyred for their faith.

    There's little doubt she continued on after Jesus' death and Assention. She is mentioned by Luke in Acts. If there is a recording of her life and death, please, point me to it. I'm here to learn. Seriously.

    It was customary then (and now) for females of that culture to marry and have children as young as 14-15, but 12 is stretching it.

    This is not a fact, since a manger is nothing more than a trough that animals were fed from. It can be debated whether the manger was in a cave or a stable. The stable could have been a part of someone's home. It was customary for people of that culture to dedicate a part of the ground level of a structure as a stable for their animals.

    Since I don't have much time to visit a library, all I have at my disposal is the Web. I have just spent an hour researching some of these "facts" and have come up with little or nothing at all. If you could supply us with some leads, I would be happy to check them out.

    Vic
     
  19. <snip>
    Ok, so observance of Catholic tradition, according to what you have said here, is worthy of an eternity in hell.

    On occasion I have heard Protestants complain because of Canons from Catholic councils, such as Trent, which anathemize Protestant practices. This has been a great source of offense for the Protestants who have cited these anathemas.

    Parenthetically, an anathema is not exactly the same thing as consigning another to hell, but let's not split hairs.

    Hold that thought. By "taken people from the grace of God" are you suggesting that a person can lose their salvation, or alternatively, resist the salvation that God has in store for a soul?
    Your Calvinist frriends are already cringing.

    So, thus far we have- and please, correct me if I'm wrong- you stating that 1. Catholics who participate in Catholic tradition/distinctives will burn in hell and 2. They have been stolen from God's grace by the machinations of the Catholic system.

    Which of these, exactly, gets a person burnt extra crispy forever?
    Would it be financial indulgences (condemned at Trent), Mary as co-redemptrix (an minority heresy within the large Body of Catholicism), or walking around with an image of Mary?

    You make these Catholics sound like victims of the 'system.' Are they then, nevertheless, on the L Train to hell? I'm a bit puzzled by your soteriology.

    Could you please explain these things for me?
    Thx
    James
     
  20. bibleberean

    bibleberean Guest

    The Mary of these cults is not the Mary of the bible...

    She is a revived devil goddess.

    Don't even consider praying or seeking comfort from this demonic being!

    This is a battle a war between good and evil. Between the forces of darkness and light.

    2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

    2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    2 Corinthians 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    [​IMG]

    This Mary with her false prophecies and magical scapulars and medals is a fraud...

    Look at just one of the thousands of blasphemous prayers to this demon.


    St. Ephraem the Syrian (306-373)

    The Essential Mary Handbook : a summary of beliefs, practices, and prayers : with a glossary of key terms and cross-referenced to the Catechism of the Catholic Church / [edited and compiled by Judith A. Bauer] Imprint Liguori, Mo. : Liguori Publications, c1999, BX2160.2 .E88 1999 , pp. 111


    "O Virgin, most pure, wholly unspotted, O Mary, Mother of God, Queen of the universe, you are above all the saints, the hope of the elect and the joy of all the blessed. It is you who have reconciled us with God. You are the only refuge of sinners and the safe harbor of those who are shipwrecked. You are the consolation of the world, the ransom of captives, the health of the weak, the joy of the afflicted, and the salvation of all. We have recourse to you, and we beseech you to have pity on us. Amen."

    To the pit with this prayer!

    Mary did not reconcile us to God! This is a lie and a damnable heresy of the rankest sort!

    2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    Jesus alone has reconciled us to God. Jesus alone is our refuge.

    I spit on every thing this unholy and vile prayer represents.

    Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia, 1918: "To such extent did Mary suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for : man's salvation . . that we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ."


    Plus XI, 1935, in a prayer to close a jubilee, we find the first use of the word Coredemptrix by a pope: "O Mother of love and mercy who, when thy sweetest Son was consummating the Redemption of the human race on in the altar of the cross, didst stand next to him suffering with him as a Coredemptrix."


    Did the false Mary of Rome have any thing to do with purging our sins?
    Not according to God's word!


    Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had ***by Himself*** purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    The Lord Jesus Christ purged our sins ***by Himself!***That means that Mary played no part in purging our sins or reconciling us to God!

    The cults can run to their "Queen" for comfort!

    As for me and my house we will serve the LORD!

    Is there a Queen of Heaven in the scriptures?

    Yes, there is!

    Jeremiah 7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?

    Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

    Jeremiah 7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
     
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