The Virgin of the Lilies

[Relic]

Billy Joel? Isn't he the guy that wanted to be the first one to have sex with a "nice Catholic girl" named Virginia?

Billy Joel is very, very honest...

:smt044

Oh, a fine example for us to follow! (sarcasm)
Thanks for sharing your sense of humor BB.

Now, I was scorned in one of the apologetics threads for finding a message humorous, will I be scorned for laughing in this thread, also? :-?
I would hope not. No harm in finding humor where humor exists. Right?


Being a former Catholic myself, I wonder, why are so many catholics in denial of the truth of how they see Mary, the mother of Jesus and all the rest of the saints? St. Joseph is another one they pray to and kneel down before as if the statue is a thing to kneel down before it. And in doing so they are using them to intercede to get to God. When Christ died on the cross the veil was torn from the bottom up! Am I mistaken or doesn't that mean we have access to God through Christ Jesus now? We no longer have to give animal sacrifices nor do we have to do as the levi priests did to come into the presense of God. We are not to go through some saint that is represented by a wooden or plaster statue to get God to hear our prayers, All we need is the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ in our lives. Jesus is our intercessor. Bowing down to some statue is not much different than bowing down to some golden calf. Yes, I know this arguement is a never ending one with those who insist on using Mary to hear their prayers and interced for them, so I should not be so surprised. :-?


Well, I praise God I left the Catholic denomination. Back in the 70's I kept going back to them in hopes to see that they changed their greedy ways, but in the 80's they were not much different, except that they now accepted charismatics and guitar masses. So I again walked away from them and realized that it is futile to be joined to a church that is greedy and kneels down in front of statues and prays to the person the statue is named after! Every catholic church I ever belonged to looked down on people who didn't have much money to give to them! I even went to a catholic counselor a couple of times for guidance in which direction I should take as far as my career, and she asked me to at least give her Money for her counseling services. She knew I had no job at the time and no income! But she still asked me to give her money when the counseling service were supposed to be a "free" service provided by the church! She knew that my bills were more than my income! And she still asked me for money for her counseling services! Check made out in her name. Not the churches name but her name. How greedy is that? I even asked if I could find a job at the community center, and she said, "As long as you are in counseling with me you can't have a job here." :o
Well, I stopped sessions with that woman just after only two times of seeing her! And she wanted money from me each time I went there! Yeah, A caring church! They take from the poor to give to the rich!
Sad to say my experience with the catholic church has been one of nothing but money hungry materialistic greedy people who don't really give one bit of care about those in need of counsel or help in times of hardship. When I left the meeting with her she drove a brand new car and I had this old beat up car. I wonder what she thought about taking money from me after she saw that car I had? Nothing? Do you think she even thought about taking money from a poor person?

They think telling people to say their hail Mary's and The Act of Contrition will do service for a person in need just fine enough! The Catholic church has never helped me in my time of need! Never in my childhood and never in my adult years! They have always taken from my poor mother and they have always looked for money from me and my family. That was the initial subject that was brought up during my meetings with them and the most important one as far as they were concerned! Back in the late 60's early 70's I don't recall exactly which year it was, it was so long ago... When I was engaged to be married, I went to the catholic church to ask them to marry us, and the first thing that priest did was reach in his desk drawer and pullout some envelopes for us to give to the church. He said we had to "become members" of the church and said nothing more. He ended our meeting! :o

I ask God to help me overcome this feeling I have for them!
These sour memories 30 years of mostly sour memories, keep coming up in my testimonies about my experiences with the catholic church. They are too many, and very few good memories.


Will there ever be a day I have a good experience with the catholic church? I wonder. Oh I have one..... That place I went for 2 sessions of counseling.... It was in a HUGE Beautiful Five Story "Mansion" which sits on 56 acres of land! :-?


.

 

[bibleberean]

According to the Pope's we need Mary to show us the Son and she is the dispenser of the graces merited by Jesus. We need her to get to Him according to the RCC.

"With Mary, mother of the Eternal High Priest, the priest is aware that, with her, he is ‘an instrument of salvific communication between God and man’ … when we celebrate the Holy Mass, the Mother of the Son of God is in our midst and introduces us to the mystery of His redemptive sacrifice. Thus, she is the mediatrix of all the grace flowing from this sacrifice to the Church and to all the faithful."

Pope John Paul II- ("The Role of the Priest in the Parish Community" Our Sunday Visitor’s The Pope Speaks May/June 2003 pp. 156, 159)

And yet another blasphemous statement!

"Turn in spirit with ever greater confidence to the Virgin Mother of God, the constant refuge of Christians in adversity, since she has been made a source of salvation for the human race."

Pope John XXIII (1958-1963) "Encyclical of Pope John XXIII on the Rosary." September 26, 1959

God is my refuge not the false goddess of the RCC and Jesus is my only mediator!

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[bibleberean]

Is Jesus a baby in His mom's arms in heaven or is He a man seated at the right hand of the Father?

Notice that the phony Catholic angels are burning incense to their Queen...

Jeremiah 44:15 Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying,

Jeremiah 44:16 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee.

Jeremiah 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

The Catholic Queen is not the mother of our Lord but a pagan devil goddess pretending to be a minister of light...

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2 Corinthians 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

[cj]

There is a synagogue of the Romanist that I had the unfortunate experience of having to attend a wedding in about a year ago.

As my wife and I were walking through an outer entrance I noticed that it was designed in a way that utilized many columns, maybe twenty or more. As I looked more closely at these columns, I saw that on each, about three-quarters way up there was an image of the counterfeit Mary and underneath was a plaque with the name of the person or family that had donated large amounts of money to the building fund.

It sickened me, it truly sickened me.


The fraudulent system of the Romanist is the worse type of wickedness perpetrated on the believing body, and those who uphold it will suffer much loss.


In love,
cj

 

[thessalonian]

That's nice, Robert- you plan on dealing with the fraud you placed here? By that I mean, rather than shirking it off, investigating it, and, finding it unreliable and fraudulent, as it is, apologizing for passing it off as truth?

I didn't think so.

Let's let Billy Joel take us out
Honesty is such a lonely word.
Everyone is so untrue.
Honesty is hardly ever heard.
And mostly what I need from you.

Bearing false witness seems to have been ripped out of their bibles.

 

[bibleberean]

There is a synagogue of the Romanist that I had the unfortunate experience of having to attend a wedding in about a year ago.

As my wife and I were walking through an outer entrance I noticed that it was designed in a way that utilized many columns, maybe twenty or more. As I looked more closely at these columns, I saw that on each, about three-quarters way up there was an image of the counterfeit Mary and underneath was a plaque with the name of the person or family that had donated large amounts of money to the building fund.

It sickened me, it truly sickened me.


The fraudulent system of the Romanist is the worse type of wickedness perpetrated on the believing body, and those who uphold it will suffer much loss.


In love,
cj

I agree. The false Mary that has been used by Rome to deceive and confuse countless millions of her members is a tremendous wickedness.

As seen in these forums most Catholics wilfully choose to remain in their deluded state.

Rome is the arch enemy of the true Christ.

It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not the Popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name. It wounds Christ, robs Christ of His glory, puts sacramental efficacy in the place of His atonement, and lifts a piece of bread in the place of the Saviour....If we pray against it, because it is against Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors; we shall love their souls, though we loathe and detest their dogmas...."
C. H Spurgeon (All Roads Lead To Rome, Dorcheste House, 1991, pg. 183).

Paul saw this and other vile churches coming...

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

"FURTHERMORE, WE DECLARE, WE PROCLAIM, WE DEFINE THAT IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY FOR SALVATION THAT EVERY HUMAN CREATURE BE SUBJECT TO THE ROMAN PONTIFF" Unam Sanctum

Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

The unbiblical Popes, idolatry, their false goddess and filth ridden doctrines that place Mary as "Co-redemptrix and mediatrix" of all graces with Christ marks them as one of the most vile institutions on this earth.

 

[thessalonian]

Robert,

Much rhetoric. Robs God of his glory? How can acknowledging the work that God has done in those whom he loves rob him of his glory? You fear reflecting on the passages of scripture that deal with Mary. You will not acknowledge what scripture says about the blessedness of Mary, her motherhood to the Son of God, all the events of the Old Testament were directed to that one moment when the angels held their breath as she said "let it be done unto me according to your word". Can you feel the exhale from heaven in the power of that verse. Grace came to mankind through those words. That yes to God that countered the no of adam and Eve. The joy in heaven over that day when they could look forward to the freeing of mankind through the bondage of sins. God did great things for Mary throughout the Old Testament. "God has done great things for me". I know it makes you angry to say that he did it all for her in the Old Testament. Probalby won't mean much to you to say, in doing it all for her he did it all for his Son, but it's true. And of course he did it for you and I as well. Not apart from the atonement. It all fits together. Rather than separating what went on 2000 years ago from today Catholicism sees it as a total package where that grace worked through the saints of old, it worked through the ages to bring salvation to millions and it is working today, past, present, and future in our lives. God saved us, but he is also about saving us, and will save us. All we have to do is take up our cross and follow him. Though,this is not easy, yet he gives us the grace he earned 2000 years ago on the cross to do it. That's the Gospel. That's the hope that is within me. That's the identity of Catholicism, which is my identity. The Gospel of anti-catholicism is no hope. If men hope that they are right by "proving" that Catholicism is wrong, that is sad indeed.

 

[bibleberean]

Mary was blessed among women. Christians agree with that fact.

The RCC version of Mary is that she "conquered evil and death". That we owe her our salvation.and that she is Co-redemptrix with Christ is what any bible believing, cult rejecting Christian has a problem with.

The false Mary has shrines and groves and altars built to honor her. Her statues and paintings are knelt before and prayed to...

"...Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, your are the joy, your are the honor of our people!
Amen."

Pope Pius XII (1876-1958)
(Pontiff 1939-1958)
Blessed Art Thou: A Treasury of Marian Prayers and Devotions / Richard J. Beyer


True Christians have no problem with the biblical Mary who rejoiced in God her saviour. It is the false devil goddess of Rome true Christians reject. She is a satanic concoction.

Mary is not once mentioned in scripture as "Co-redemptrix, Queen of the apostles, hope and joy of the people, or that she is the "glory".

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Worshipping Mary with shrines ,groves and altars is idolatry plain and simple.

2 Chronicles 24:18 And they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served groves and idols: and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem for this their trespass.

 

[thessalonian]

Mary was blessed among women. Christians agree with that fact.

The RCC version of Mary is that she "conquered evil and death". That we owe her our salvation.and that she is Co-redemptrix with Christ is what any bible believing, cult rejecting Christian has a problem with.

The false Mary has shrines and groves and altars built to honor her. Her statues and paintings are knelt before and prayed to...

"...Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, your are the joy, your are the honor of our people!
Amen."

Pope Pius XII (1876-1958)
(Pontiff 1939-1958)
Blessed Art Thou: A Treasury of Marian Prayers and Devotions / Richard J. Beyer


True Christians have no problem with the biblical Mary who rejoiced in God her saviour. It is the false devil goddess of Rome true Christians reject. She is a satanic concoction.

Mary is not once mentioned in scripture as "Co-redemptrix, Queen of the apostles, hope and joy of the people, or that she is the "glory".

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Worshipping Mary with shrines ,groves and altars is idolatry plain and simple.

2 Chronicles 24:18 And they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served groves and idols: and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem for this their trespass.

God honors her with a throne at the right hand of his son and a crown of 12 stars. He exalted her. He saved mankind but it was in fact through her. God works through his creatures. We are to recognize this. You do not.


Blessings

 

[bibleberean]

God did not save man through Mary....

The true Mary would be offended by such a heretical statement.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The "ministry of reconcilation" which is the gospel is committed unto the church of which the true Mary is a part.

The gospel is about Christ and His death, burial and resurrection for the sins of mankind including Mary.

God was in Christ reconciling the world not God was in Mary and through her reconciling the world.

Mary is not mentioned as conquering death. Only Christ can do that.

There are no scriptures commanding or even suggesting that we pray to Mary for protection.

Catholics have a skewed outlook on the bible.

That is why Jesus is oft portrayed in heaven sitting on the lap of their Queen instead of a man seated at the right hand of the Father.

God did not save the world through anyone but Jesus.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Jesus said,

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

The scriptures never once say that salvation came through Mary.

Salvation came through Christ.

I can't find Mary's name associated with salvation.

There is only one name by which men can be saved.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

There are no scriptures that say we must go to Mary to get to her Son.

The scriptures say we have access to God through Christ alone.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The Roman Catholic faithful have been lied to.

They need to know the truth...

John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Mary isn't mentioned as the way to the way...

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

The Father and the Son. The earthly mother of Christ plays no part in our coming to the Father or the Son.

True Christians give the message of Salvation. That does not make a Christian a Co mediatrix.

What a deceived and unbiblical bunch are those under the sway of Catholic doctrine.

 

[thessalonian]

False dichotomies abound. Are kids who have Christian parents more or less likely to understand God's plan of salvation. Does God save them through the parents? If no missionaries had ever trod the pagan jungles of South America would they ever have come to know Christ? Is this not God working through people to bring about salvation, or if these people are saved can they attribute a part of their salvation to these people that is not linked to God. NOPE! Is it false thinking to say Moses led the Isrealites out of Egypt or did God do it? False dichotomy. God works through his creation including men and women to bring about the salvation of others. This is so obvious I can't believe I even have to state it. God the Father sent his only begotten son to be BORN OF A WOMAN! That's how he chose to save mankind, through a woman. This is significant because a woman precipitated the fall. None of this means that Christ was not total savior and redeemer for it is the very grace from his death and resurrection that brought the missionaries to South America and converted the parents of the children to Christ. God's grace works in the world and in our lives. There is no need to deny it. Rather give glroy to him for the great and mighty works he does through us that we could not do on our own.

Blessings

 

[Vic C.]

God the Father sent his only begotten son to be BORN OF A WOMAN! That's how he chose to save mankind, through a woman. This is significant because a woman precipitated the fall.

Two things come to mind

Men can't have babies so, duh. 8-)

I still haven't heard woman say, "sorry : ". 8-) 8-)

I agree with the rest of it.



don't beat me up, I'm just teasing. :-D

 

[Orthodox Christian]

God the Father sent his only begotten son to be BORN OF A WOMAN! That's how he chose to save mankind, through a woman. This is significant because a woman precipitated the fall.

Two things come to mind

Men can't have babies so, duh. 8-)

I still haven't heard woman say, "sorry : ". 8-) 8-)

I agree with the rest of it.



don't beat me up, I'm just teasing. :-D

"It was the woman you gave me."-
Adam, blaming both Eve and God for his failures, something we men have never unlearned.


Lest we forget, gentlemen, Eve was deceived- Adam disobeyed willingly.
Death came through one man, Adam.

All mankind has been shut in disobedience
But Christ lifted both Adam and Eve from their tombs, and us with them...and in Him, there is neither male nor female.

 

[Vic C.]

Lest we forget, gentlemen, Eve was deceived- Adam disobeyed willingly.
Death came through one man, Adam.

Agreed. I don't normally point fingers unless I can also point while standing in front of a mirror. To say I'm the cause of many of my problems would be an understatement.

Heh, I said I was kidding. 8-)

 

[thessalonian]

God the Father sent his only begotten son to be BORN OF A WOMAN! That's how he chose to save mankind, through a woman. This is significant because a woman precipitated the fall.

Two things come to mind

Men can't have babies so, duh. 8-)

I still haven't heard woman say, "sorry : ". 8-) 8-)

I agree with the rest of it.



don't beat me up, I'm just teasing. :-D

Hmmmm. An interesting question arises. If the man had precipitated the fall would God in his forknowledge have made men to have babies? Ouch.
:-D

I'm only kidding as well.

Blessings

 

[Vic C.]

"Hmmmm. An interesting question arises. If the man had precipitated the fall would God in his forknowledge have made men to have babies? Ouch."

 

[bibleberean]

Mary did not save us. Mary did not purge our sins. Mary is not to be sought for salvation or protection.

The Mary of Catholicism is a devil goddess.

All kidding aside...

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Proverbs 18:10 The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hosea 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

We were not saved through the goddess of Rome but through the finished sacrifice of Christ.

Ezekiel 23:30 I will do these things unto thee, because thou hast gone a whoring after the heathen, and because thou art polluted with their idols.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

The RCC is a promoter and practitioner of idolatry. She is a harlot.

 

[thessalonian]

The distinction you are not grasping BB is that God saves THROUGH his creation. I.e. he uses his creation to save men. The heavens cry out to the glory of God. Nature points to him such that men who are seeking God might find him. Evengelists are sent to preach the word of God that men might be saved. Are they saved through the preachers? Yes. And in some sense they are saved BY the preachers for without the preachers giving them the Gospel they would not be saved. Yet it is the grace of God that brings this all about. This is not a denial of God's saving or that God only saves in part. He saves in all and through all on those who would seek him. This is not something to be afraid of and so deny. GOD SAVES THROUGH HIS CREATION! PRAISE HIM FOR IT. HE SENT HIS SON THROUGH A WOMAN, while she did not bring about the grace neccessary for our salvation, he no less brought men to salvation through her and it is proper to acknowledge her part in his plan of salvation. It was no small role. But you won't of course.

Blessings

 

[Orthodox Christian]

The distinction you are not grasping BB is that God saves THROUGH his creation. I.e. he uses his creation to save men. The heavens cry out to the glory of God. Nature points to him such that men who are seeking God might find him. Evengelists are sent to preach the word of God that men might be saved. Are they saved through the preachers? Yes. And in some sense they are saved BY the preachers for without the preachers giving them the Gospel they would not be saved. Yet it is the grace of God that brings this all about. This is not a denial of God's saving or that God only saves in part. He saves in all and through all on those who would seek him. This is not something to be afraid of and so deny. GOD SAVES THROUGH HIS CREATION! PRAISE HIM FOR IT. HE SENT HIS SON THROUGH A WOMAN, while she did not bring about the grace neccessary for our salvation, he no less brought men to salvation through her and it is proper to acknowledge her part in his plan of salvation. It was no small role. But you won't of course.

Blessings

Your statement and the reasoning behind it are air tight and unquestionably biblical. The only reason why argument would be, and will be brought against your statement is that it creates a slippery slope that inevitably leads to veneration of Saints and Mary and of each other, in Godly love, and we just can't have that.

 

[thessalonian]

Yes, of course, we must deny it at all costs. It would lead to thinking that God made people great who do great things. Heresy! Damnable heresy. That it was his power working in them rather than God just doing things directly. You know, I hear it from Evangelicals all the time "God doesn't need us to do his work." :o