The Virgin of the Lilies

[bibleberean]

Here is a picture of the pope not worshiping his goddess :

"Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, your are the joy, your are the honor of our people!"Amen.

 

[fiat]

God has the ability to see mens hearts, minds, and intentions. It is not our job to make assumptions about the state of another's soul. To do so only gives rise to scandal. I have seen similar pictures of mothers before pictures of their sons killed in war...the pictures are generally surrounded by flowers and candles. Am I to assume the mother is "worshipping" her dead son?

As for the prayer, there is nothing wrong with it. Mary is the glory and honor of the people of the New Covenant because of the example she set of a "yes" that contradicted the prideful "no" of the garden of Eden. Likewise, we can rejoice in GOD'S glory and mercy manifest in her.

 

[bibleberean]

God has the ability to see mens hearts, minds, and intentions. It is not our job to make assumptions about the state of another's soul. To do so only gives rise to scandal. I have seen similar pictures of mothers before pictures of their sons killed in war...the pictures are generally surrounded by flowers and candles. Am I to assume the mother is "worshipping" her dead son?

As for the prayer, there is nothing wrong with it. Mary is the glory and honor of the people of the New Covenant because of the example she set of a "yes" that contradicted the prideful "no" of the garden of Eden. Likewise, we can rejoice in GOD'S glory and mercy manifest in her.

Not true...

What this proves is that Satan can make clever excuses for what is clearly forbidden.

"O crystal Fountain of Faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of All Holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! O Conqueress of Evil and Death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!"

It is Jesus who conquered evil and death and the Holy Spirit which bathes our minds with eternal truths.

It is not the false goddess of Roman Catholic fable and superstition.

I don't pray to my dead grandmother and ask her to bathe my mind with eternal truths.

The scriptures stand as witness against this vile practice...

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Here is a picture of the pope not worshiping his goddess :

"Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, your are the joy, your are the honor of our people!"Amen.

Your above post is stated in the form of a rhetorical question, stating "show me how this is not worship."

Firstly, this proves my point in the last post that you are interpreting what is done by Catholics as worship.

Secondly, you are ignoring the distinction that I and others have made repeatedly between proskeneo honor and latreia worship. I have given biblical examples of humans bowing before each other in proskeneo. Any Catholic can tell you quite plainly that they only latreia worship the Holy Trinity.

Nowhere in the prayer you quote do you see the expression 'we worship you.'
In point of fact, I'm betting you use much stronger words of praise to express your love for your wife-are you worshipping her?

And do you at any time plan on answering whether flag saluting, cup kissing, or kneeling at the Vietnam Veteran's memorial are idolatrous behaviors? Or do you not have the courage to tackle those questions?

Lastly, and most importantly:
I find it odd that you, believing that Catholics are idolizing Mary in mortal danger of their soul, LAUGH at the prospect that they are worshipping Mary.

No, not odd- I find it distressing.

"If any many is caught in a trespass, you who are spiritual should restore such a one in a spirt of meekness, taking care that ye yourself stumble."

So, where is the motive to restore, as opposed to revile, mock, and condemn?

I leave you with an exhortation not to mock those you think in grave error. Mocking never leads to restoration- and if you truly believe that Catholics are in need of restoration, you should never mock them or laugh at what you consider to be their folly.

Luther, setting out to save the poor Jew, ended his life a vile anti-Semite. Where is Christ in that?
James

 

[Steve]

Lyric's Dad wrote:

Sorry, you are merely putting forward catholic tradition here. Not what is backed by the Bible. I do not buy the catholic tradition. We have seen what their adherance to their traditions have brought about.

I'm not catholic. I'm Orthodox Christian. And the Bible you quote was compiled by the Orthodox holy fathers in 325 A.D. at the First Ecumenical Council. Before that, there was no Bible. So what did they follow before the Bible existed? Nobody has been able to answer this yet. I feel, like I'm being ignored about it. What they followed was the oral tradition passed down from the Apostles and by their faith of the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, they chose the books that went into the Bible that you worship. So basically, you should give thanks to the holy men that choose the books of the Bible..who, BTW, were of the Orthodox tradition(before the West went into Schism of course. Please see my other posts for further details).

Vic wrote:

I'm not sure where any of this comes from and I am very interested in where the Bible teaches that Mary is an intecessor for ANYONE.

How about John 2:1, at the wedding in Cana. She interceded for the people about the wine. She appealed to her Son to help them. And although, it looked like He refused, He still performed the miracle. The first miracle, by the way.

The people at the wedding can be considered ANYONE, no? And it's in the Bible. You may say that it is nothing, but don't forget that it was also the FIRST miracle that Christ choose to do AND it was at the request of His mother.

In Christ,

Pelagia

Before the EAST went into schism, you mean.

 

[bibleberean]

Look at this blasphemous picture titled "Our Lady of All nations"

Look at her standing in front of the cross obscuring it standing as "Queen of the World," now take careful note of what the scriptures state.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

The false Mary claims that she is Queen of all the Nations and that she shares in saving the world from sin. The followers of the goddess claim that there is nothing wrong with this prayer.

"Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, your are the joy, your are the honor of our people!"Amen.

Mary is not all present. She is not all knowing and God does not share His glory with graven images.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Marian followers deny they worship Mary.

15 to 20 million people a year visit the shrine of Mary in Guadalupe every year. Many of the faithful crawl on their knees until they are bleeding and prostrate themselves before a carved image of their goddess. Many are in trance like states as they mutter prayers to their protectress.

The worshippers of Mary are blind to the double speak of their goddess and her church.

Mary Queen of Nations?

Not according to the bible.

The real Mary was not ever called Queen of Nations or Queen of heaven.

If you want to see an interesting on line video about Marian apparitions go to the following site.

Messages From Heaven video
by Eternal Productions - English version
(Watch this entire video about the Marian apparitions on-line here)

http://www.creationists.org/MessagesFro ... glish.html

 

[Lyric's Dad]

I have seen the video of "messages from heaven" and was deeply disturbed. This mary worship is out of control. I cannot imagine how it would distress her to see these people worship her when there is only one way to the Father. Disturbing indeed.


Also, for OC, you question about if people are worshiping things such as the memorial wall, sports trophies, etc. I would say there is a real problem with this too. People get very caught up in the things of the world and walk a dangerous line of possible worship to their earthly heroes, placing them in levels of prestige and honor that only should be reserved for God. I think it even more disturbing that people who have a Bible in their hands though, pray to a false god masquerading as Mary. These people above and beyond those worshiping the likes of Michael Jordan should know better. After all, they claim to be Christians.

 

[bibleberean]

I have seen the video of "messages from heaven" and was deeply disturbed. This mary worship is out of control. I cannot imagine how it would distress her to see these people worship her when there is only one way to the Father. Disturbing indeed.


Also, for OC, you question about if people are worshiping things such as the memorial wall, sports trophies, etc. I would say there is a real problem with this too. People get very caught up in the things of the world and walk a dangerous line of possible worship to their earthly heroes, placing them in levels of prestige and honor that only should be reserved for God. I think it even more disturbing that people who have a Bible in their hands though, pray to a false god masquerading as Mary. These people above and beyond those worshiping the likes of Michael Jordan should know better. After all, they claim to be Christians.

Hello Lyrics dad,

Would you recommend that true Christians as well as these idolaters see this online video?

I am trying to generate interest in this subject. Mary worship, they can call it "devotion" or "veneration" If they want but it is worship any way you cut it.

If a believer sees this video it will disturb them. If a Catholic or Orthodox views it only the Holy Spirit will be able to move their callous hearts.

http://www.creationists.org/MessagesFro ... glish.html

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Robert, I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that you are not going to answer the important issues I raised in my last post. I post them here again for your convenience, should you care to respond to them.

I have asterisked the crucial points (*)
Thanks

...Secondly, you are ignoring the distinction that I and others have made repeatedly between proskeneo honor and latreia worship. I have given biblical examples of humans bowing before each other in proskeneo. Any Catholic can tell you quite plainly that they only latreia worship the Holy Trinity.

Nowhere in the prayer you quote do you see the expression 'we worship you.'

*In point of fact, I'm betting you use much stronger words of praise to express your love for your wife-are you worshipping her? *

*And do you at any time plan on answering whether flag saluting, cup kissing, or kneeling at the Vietnam Veteran's memorial are idolatrous behaviors? Or do you not have the courage to tackle those questions? *

Lastly, and most importantly:
*I find it odd that you, believing that Catholics are idolizing Mary in mortal danger of their soul, LAUGH at the prospect that they are worshipping Mary. *

No, not odd- I find it distressing.

"If any many is caught in a trespass, you who are spiritual should restore such a one in a spirt of meekness, taking care that ye yourself stumble."

*So, where is the motive to restore, as opposed to revile, mock, and condemn? *

I leave you with an exhortation not to mock those you think in grave error. Mocking never leads to restoration- and if you truly believe that Catholics are in need of restoration, you should never mock them or laugh at what you consider to be their folly.

*Luther, setting out to save the poor Jew, ended his life a vile anti-Semite. Where is Christ in that? *
James

 

[Lyric's Dad]

I have seen the video of "messages from heaven" and was deeply disturbed. This mary worship is out of control. I cannot imagine how it would distress her to see these people worship her when there is only one way to the Father. Disturbing indeed.


Also, for OC, you question about if people are worshiping things such as the memorial wall, sports trophies, etc. I would say there is a real problem with this too. People get very caught up in the things of the world and walk a dangerous line of possible worship to their earthly heroes, placing them in levels of prestige and honor that only should be reserved for God. I think it even more disturbing that people who have a Bible in their hands though, pray to a false god masquerading as Mary. These people above and beyond those worshiping the likes of Michael Jordan should know better. After all, they claim to be Christians.

Hello Lyrics dad,

Would you recommend that true Christians as well as these idolaters see this online video?

I am trying to generate interest in this subject. Mary worship, they can call it "devotion" or "veneration" If they want but it is worship any way you cut it.

If a believer sees this video it will disturb them. If a Catholic or Orthodox views it only the Holy Spirit will be able to move their callous hearts.

http://www.creationists.org/MessagesFro ... glish.html

I believe that this is one of those videos that should be seen by all. It is like the DNA vs. The Book of Mormon video that I recommend mormons to view. They can get the facts and if they so choose, turn a blind eye, justify or whatever but the facts will be viewed.

This video about the Mary apparitions is actual events. There is no trickery or anything. It goes to the Bible alone for a look at these events and gives the viewer the opportunity to make informed decisions. It is not a bash Catholicism video or one done in hate. It is a great video and one that people should definately view.

 

[bibleberean]

For a Peaceful Parting

Holy Virgin,I beg of you,
when my soul shall depart from my body,
be pleased to meet and receive it.
Mary, do not refuse me then the grace of being sustained by your sweet presence. Be for me the ladder and the way to heaven, and finally assure me of pardon and eternal rest.

St. Bonaventure (1218-1274)
Blessed Art Thou: A Treasury of Marian Prayers and Devotions / Richard J. Beyer Imprint Notre Dame, IN : Ave Maria Press, c1996, BX2160.2 B46 1996, pp. 102-103.


The Mary this false saint and idolater worships would have to be God to be able to meet and receive the souls of people who commit their trust to her.

Jesus Himself commended His Spirit to the Father. There are absolutely no scriptures that point worshippers of the "true God" to use Mary as a way to heaven.

Mary gives us assurance of heaven? There are no scriptures to support this vile filth ridden blasphemy.

Jesus is our strength our advocate and mediator. Not the devil goddess known as the Queen of Heaven.

Israel worshipped this goddess too and brought God's wrath and anger upon itself. Israel had not stopped honoring and worshipping the "Most High God" but also turned to the "Queen of Heaven" for comfort and sustenance as well.

Jeremiah warned them but like the idol worshippers of today refused to listen to the word of God.

Jeremiah 44:15 Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying,

Jeremiah 44:16 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee.

Jeremiah 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Jeremiah 7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

Jeremiah 44:25 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.

I strongly urge Christians to take the time to watch this online video about the false goddess by which the harlot churches are trying to deceive and seduce the elect.

Watch this video!

http://www.creationists.org/MessagesFro ... glish.html

Don't worship nor give glory to this demon!

This is a vile sin. An evil that no Christian should be silent about.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

BB, to your above post I can add only one thing...

AMEN!

 

[fiat]

I don't have the time or the bandwidth to download that video! lol. A couple things though from what you said about the movie...

1. It is made by a non-Catholic organization. A bias, however unintentional, will exist.
2. It is still a passive observation, without explanation. You are still watching Catholics with candles and statues, and making judgments according to what you *think* might be going on in their hearts and minds.
3. I'm taking a guess here, but are all the apparitions in the video actually Church approved? Rome tends to be extremely sceptical of visions, knowing full well that the devil can appear to be an angel of light.

If you honestly believe that Catholics are going to hell, it would be a good idea to get out a Catechism and learn what the Church teaches so that you can properly debate with us. You don't need to watch movies and take guesses..it's all spelled out for you! If you have questions, I would be more than grateful to answer them for you. I grew up protestant, and certainly understand your concern.

 

[bibleberean]

The movie is well worth watching. Too bad you dont' have a decent computer.

The Roman Catholic Church is corrupt, apostate, and promoter of idol worship and superstition.

This church is one of the darkest forces on the face of the earth.

I was born and baptised in this church. I went to Catholic School for 8 years and a Salesian Seminary to become a priest.

I know what they teach. I was indoctrinated from birth.

Rome is evil. Many Catholics are totally unaware of what this confusing and contradictory church teaches.

I urge anyone who has not seen this video to watch it.

I guarantee you will not be disappointed unless you are so blind and caught up in darkness that you willingly wish to remain ignorant.

http://www.creationists.org/MessagesFro ... glish.html

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The devil goddess and momma's little boy.

Jesus sits at the right hand of God. There is not a scripture to suggest that He now appears on earth with mom as a little baby...See the video... ;-)

Pope honoring his idols.

 

[amal95]

Robert, I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that you are not going to answer the important issues I raised in my last post. I post them here again for your convenience, should you care to respond to them.

I have asterisked the crucial points (*)
Thanks

...Secondly, you are ignoring the distinction that I and others have made repeatedly between proskeneo honor and latreia worship. I have given biblical examples of humans bowing before each other in proskeneo. Any Catholic can tell you quite plainly that they only latreia worship the Holy Trinity.

Nowhere in the prayer you quote do you see the expression 'we worship you.'

*In point of fact, I'm betting you use much stronger words of praise to express your love for your wife-are you worshipping her? *

*And do you at any time plan on answering whether flag saluting, cup kissing, or kneeling at the Vietnam Veteran's memorial are idolatrous behaviors? Or do you not have the courage to tackle those questions? *

Lastly, and most importantly:
*I find it odd that you, believing that Catholics are idolizing Mary in mortal danger of their soul, LAUGH at the prospect that they are worshipping Mary. *

No, not odd- I find it distressing.

"If any many is caught in a trespass, you who are spiritual should restore such a one in a spirt of meekness, taking care that ye yourself stumble."

*So, where is the motive to restore, as opposed to revile, mock, and condemn? *

I leave you with an exhortation not to mock those you think in grave error. Mocking never leads to restoration- and if you truly believe that Catholics are in need of restoration, you should never mock them or laugh at what you consider to be their folly.

*Luther, setting out to save the poor Jew, ended his life a vile anti-Semite. Where is Christ in that? *
James

I would be interested in seeing resonses to the points in this post, instead of several posts repeating prayers and links to the same video.

Like fiat said, how do you know what is going on in the minds of people who take part in the actions YOU call worship. You see pictures of a person kissing a picture with flowers and you ASSUME they're worshiping the image. So, what if a person kisses a photo of a loved one, are they worshipping the photo or the loved one? Like fiat noted, the video is made by a non-catholic company, actually on their website it says t hey are young earth creationists group, that also has a page on cults and includes Catholics in that, no they're not biased :roll:

 

[fiat]

Thanks, amal95! I would be glad to discuss actual Church teachings. Really! Post a Catechism reference/something from one of the councils, and we'll talk about it. Just no speculatin' based on pictures. :

 

[bibleberean]

The bible states that Jesus has obtained salvation for believers.

There is not a single word in the bible that states Mary participated in saving us with Christ.

In fact the bible states the opposite!

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Jesus is our only Saviour!

Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Yet the occult harlot church claims that Mary has an office of salvation...

Vatican II

"We believe that the Blessed Mary, who ever enjoys the dignity of virginity, was the Mother of the Incarnate Word, of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ, and that in view of her Son's merits she was redeemed in a more exalted manner and preserved from all stain of sin, outstripping in excellence all other creatures by reason of the grace given her." (Vol. 2, pp. 390 and 391)

"Finally the Immaculate Virgin preserved free from all stain of original sin, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, when her earthly life was over, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things ...." (Vol. 1, pp. 417 and 418)

"She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ, she presented him to the Father in the temple, shared her son's sufferings as he died on the cross. Thus, in a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Savior in restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace." (Vol. 1, p. 418)

"Taken up to heaven she [Mary] did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us gifts of eternal salvation." (Vol. 1, p. 419)

Mary does not "bring people gifts of salvation. Jesus has already given us this gift!

Mary does not give us grace! Jesus does!

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Fiat, that pic up there is not a figment of BB's imagination. It really does say "co-redemptrix" and is in line with what your beloved late pope wanted for her.

If you are on a flight and you meet the co-pilot, what is his job? To help the pilot get people home. In a business meeting, the co-chair is there to assist in the completion of the chairs duties. So, this means that mary would be the one who helps Jesus complete the job of saving souls. That is pure heresy and blasphemy in the highest regards. I am sure the TRUE Mary weeps for the way her name is attached to the demon goddess that is worshiped within these catholic and sister church circles.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Robert, I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that you are not going to answer the important issues I raised in my last post. I post them here again for your convenience, should you care to respond to them.

I have asterisked the crucial points (*)
Thanks

...Secondly, you are ignoring the distinction that I and others have made repeatedly between proskeneo honor and latreia worship. I have given biblical examples of humans bowing before each other in proskeneo. Any Catholic can tell you quite plainly that they only latreia worship the Holy Trinity.

Nowhere in the prayer you quote do you see the expression 'we worship you.'

*In point of fact, I'm betting you use much stronger words of praise to express your love for your wife-are you worshipping her? *

*And do you at any time plan on answering whether flag saluting, cup kissing, or kneeling at the Vietnam Veteran's memorial are idolatrous behaviors? Or do you not have the courage to tackle those questions? *

Lastly, and most importantly:
*I find it odd that you, believing that Catholics are idolizing Mary in mortal danger of their soul, LAUGH at the prospect that they are worshipping Mary. *

No, not odd- I find it distressing.

"If any many is caught in a trespass, you who are spiritual should restore such a one in a spirt of meekness, taking care that ye yourself stumble."

*So, where is the motive to restore, as opposed to revile, mock, and condemn? *

I leave you with an exhortation not to mock those you think in grave error. Mocking never leads to restoration- and if you truly believe that Catholics are in need of restoration, you should never mock them or laugh at what you consider to be their folly.

*Luther, setting out to save the poor Jew, ended his life a vile anti-Semite. Where is Christ in that? *
James

I would be interested in seeing resonses to the points in this post, instead of several posts repeating prayers and links to the same video.

Like fiat said, how do you know what is going on in the minds of people who take part in the actions YOU call worship. You see pictures of a person kissing a picture with flowers and you ASSUME they're worshiping the image. So, what if a person kisses a photo of a loved one, are they worshipping the photo or the loved one? Like fiat noted, the video is made by a non-catholic company, actually on their website it says t hey are young earth creationists group, that also has a page on cults and includes Catholics in that, no they're not biased :roll:

Hi Amal: Thanks for your response- don't hold your breath waiting for responses to these pointed questions- I won't.

Instead, expect more polemics and more "amen(s)."

 

[fiat]

I already responded once to bibleberean's "co-redemptrix" picture posted on page 3. lol. Here is part of my reply...

Quite simply, the title co-redemptrix refers to Mary's fulfillment of St. Paul's words in Colossians, "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church." It is the call of ALL Christians to participate in this way in the redemptive work of Christ (this is why you may hear Catholics saying "offer it up!"), but Mary shared in this in a particular way because she was so intimately united to Christ (re: she was His Mum!). It's all a part of the Mystery of Christ's Incarnation. How is it that God could take on human flesh, suffer and die for the sake of souls, and how is it that He would allow us as unworthy as we are to participate in the work of His Mercy?