Dave... said:
^This is the Protestant version of 'ugly American.'
Jim, do you really mean ugly American, or is this code for handsome Canadian?
"Ugly American" is an expression that describes those too myopic and sheltered to realize that they and their little corner of the world are not the center of the world. Because of their exaggerated sense of self-importance, they tend to be abrasive, abusive, and a nuisance.
Does that help?
Dave........... said:
Q/"Why don't they do things and say things in a way I understand?"
A/ "Cuz the world does not revolve around you and your understanding."
But my world does revolve around God's word. I trust His word to expose every false teaching.
Your world is not
the world. Even if it were, your world would revolve around your
understanding of God's word. It does not even occur to you that your understanding of the holy scriptures is colored by your experience, your culture, your parnets, your pastor, your prejudices, your presumptions, and so forth. So are mine. That is the nature of being human. We hold onto what we believe to be true about Him who is Truth.
Dave.... said:
I do not worship Mary, just like you claim not to. But I also don't hang pictures of Mary in my house with nail holes through her palms. I don't have statues of images, I don't pray to them, bow down to them, light candles around them and give every appearance that I am worshipping them, when I claim not to be.
So what? I don't go around proclaiming my interpretation of scripture as if I am speaking Ex Cathedra, either.
Dave.... said:
This is simple. Did you know that it is a sin even to give the appearance of sinning? Tell me why people flock to those images of Mary? Certainly the Catholic church would set them straight on these things? Grilled cheese anyone?
It is amazing how you believe your view of how reverence and worship should be conducted as the set point by which we should all measure ourselves.
Dave.... said:
Do you kiss your wife/kids?
Not married. Why do you compair statues to people? Would the destruction of a statue be murder?
[quote:fc9c3]Do you ever attend parades?
No, I hate parades.
Do you have an image of Jesus or the cross anywhere in your house or church?
No, no cross, nothing. [/quote:fc9c3]
Lovely, a true iconoclast. But you have already said that you worship God through His 'words'- ie, the bible. Take a look at your bible. Are there letters in there? Yes, of course. Those leters are symbols- icons, if you will, that when read and meditated upon, actually bring forth the True Word in your spirit. It is not God's words in ink, it is God's words in your spirit.
Therefore, you look unto images as well. I happen to enjoy meditating upon an icon I have of the Resurrection, where Christ is trampling down death and lifting Adam and Eve out of the Tombs. It calls to mind, for me, a ton of scripture, ranging from Genesis to Hebrews to Revelation.
Likewise, the cross. When I look upon the symbol of death that brought life, and I know that the scripture says that I am to "take it up daily," I know that I do well to mdeitate upon it. Paul preached it, Peter died on it, John and Mary, the Mother of Christ stood nearby it.
Dave.... said:
Are you, in fact, sir, an idolater?
Jumping the gun, here Jim?
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,
or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them,
nor serve them:
for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Dave
[/quote]
I'm not sure why you bring a gun to a bible discussion, Dave.
Selah
St. John of Damascus writes: "I represent God, the Invisible One, not as invisible, but insofar as he has become visible for us by participation in flesh and blood. If we made an image of the invisible God, we would certainly be in error, but we do nothing of the sort; for we are not in error if we make the image of the incarnate God, who appeared on earth in the flesh, and who, in His ineffable goodness, lived with human beings and assumed the nature, the thickness, the shape and the color of the flesh."
From the Seventh Ecumenical Council, regarding icons
...One of these is the production of representational art; this is quite in harmony with the history of the spread of the gospel, as it provides confirmation that the becoming man of the Word of God was real and not just imaginary, and as it brings us a similar benefit. For, things that mutually illustrate one another undoubtedly possess one another's message.
As do Jesus movies, Passion plays, and the like. The difference here is that the representations are sanctioned by the Church as representing solid theology. Example:
This is not Mel Gibson-interpreted passages on the big screen. This is a picture which shows jesus trampling upon death, who is bound. In larger reliefs one can see keys also under Jesus' feet- keys to the pit and hell. One can also see Adam and Eve being lifted from their crypts, for the curse is broken. The tomb is not a closed edifice in this icon, but is a doorway bathed in Shekinah glory. The figues gathered around the sides are the prophets and Kings who prophesied His coming and His glory. Though the gospel does not name the saints who were resurrected at Jesus' crucifixion, it is not unreasonable to think that prophets or kings might have been among them. Certainly, regardless, they were 'witness' to His victory, long before it occured on earth.
There is much, much more to this icon, but we shall stop there.
: *ahem* anyway... Cherumbim are of heaven, yes? And making them of hammered gold would certainly be classified as a graven image, yes? Is God contradicting Himself? No. In the passage you sited He was repremanding His people for the WORSHIP of graven images.
: Does that mean that you are omnipotent or that you, if you had faith the size of a mustard seed would have access to God's omnipotence? Don't think to long on this. Do you suppose that those in heaven have perfected faith? I do. Do you suppose they have access to his omniscience and omniprescence? Why do you say they do not? Are we not told there is great rejoicing in heaven over one repentence sinner? How can they possibly know that a sinner has repented if they do not know what is going on or hear anything? Do you suppose when the cheers go up among the angels who are said to express this great joy, that the ones around them stand around with a confused stare on their faces. The 12 Apostles are told they are going to sit on thrones and judge the twelve tribes (Matt 10). Can you tell me how they could judge rightly if they did not know what was going on and hear what was going on? So far it seems your just answering without considering what the Bible really has to say in these matters.