The Wages of Sin is ..... Eternal Life in Hell!

[Soma-Sight]

THE WAGES OF SIN IS ...... ETERNAL LIFE IN HELL!

 

[Preacher Boy]

Luke 16:22-23
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Revelation 20:11-15
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Death >> Hell>>Judgement>>Lake of Fire for eternity!

 

[SputnikBoy]

At last ...a thread dealing with the concept of 'eternal torment' ...!!!!

 

[mutzrein]

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I do however believe in a place of eternal torment but not for those who have not receieved eternal life.

 

[Preacher Boy]

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I do however believe in a place of eternal torment but not for those who have not receieved eternal life.

HUH?

 

[SputnikBoy]

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I do however believe in a place of eternal torment but not for those who have not receieved eternal life.

But, other than the righteous, who would they be ...?

 

[mutzrein]

But, other than the righteous, who would they be ...?

The goats.

Those who have turned back to their own righteousness - who after starting with the Spirit, tried to achieve their goal by human effort.

 

[Soma-Sight]

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I do however believe in a place of eternal torment but not for those who have not receieved eternal life.

WHAT!!!!!!!

How can you be eternally tormented without eternal life??????

The paradox is astounding....

 

[mutzrein]

WHAT!!!!!!!

How can you be eternally tormented without eternal life??????

The paradox is astounding....

You can't. Where is the paradox?

 

[ChristineES]

I believe in an eternal separation from God, but I do not believe in some fiery furnace where people are roasted over an open fire, with red beings with horns poking them with pitchforks.

 

[SputnikBoy]

I believe in an eternal separation from God, but I do not believe in some fiery furnace where people are roasted over an open fire, with red beings with horns poking them with pitchforks.

That CAN'T be true, Christine ...over the years I've seen MANY actual pictures of red beings with horns poking 'the lost' with pitchforks! :-D Just kidding.

I think you might be right about the eternal separation from God, perhaps in the form of complete extermination.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Soma, it's good to see your still in the business of trick question theology.

We can all agree that eternal life is the gift of those who profess Christ as Lord and believe in His resurection from the dead.

Soma's paradox is how can one be eternaly tormented if they are not alive. Where do we start in solving this mystery? How bout Revelation 20:10-15, where it tells us all who are not found in the book of like are cast into the lake of fire.

Now what's to say that this second death as the Bible says is a physical death? They are already physically dead, so how is it that they are being Judged? The Soul must still be alive, to be judged. Once the soul is judged, it is cast into the lake of fire, where a the soul is not only without a body, but without God's presence as well. Thus it is a second death.

The first death for all is the death of the physical body. The second death is when the soul is cast to dwell eternal in the lake of sulfur. Since there is nothing physical to a soul, how can it be called eternally alive?

As for Christians, they can experience eternal life, because those who believe will be given glorified bodies. These bodies won't die, or be corruptable at all. Thus the soul has a body to dwell in, and can be called eternally living.

 

[jgredline]

Soma, it's good to see your still in the business of trick question theology.

We can all agree that eternal life is the gift of those who profess Christ as Lord and believe in His resurection from the dead.

Soma's paradox is how can one be eternaly tormented if they are not alive. Where do we start in solving this mystery? How bout Revelation 20:10-15, where it tells us all who are not found in the book of like are cast into the lake of fire.

Now what's to say that this second death as the Bible says is a physical death? They are already physically dead, so how is it that they are being Judged? The Soul must still be alive, to be judged. Once the soul is judged, it is cast into the lake of fire, where a the soul is not only without a body, but without God's presence as well. Thus it is a second death.

The first death for all is the death of the physical body. The second death is when the soul is cast to dwell eternal in the lake of sulfur. Since there is nothing physical to a soul, how can it be called eternally alive?

As for Christians, they can experience eternal life, because those who believe will be given glorified bodies. These bodies won't die, or be corruptable at all. Thus the soul has a body to dwell in, and can be called eternally living.

Great post!!!!! 8-)

 

[Drew]

Soma, it's good to see your still in the business of trick question theology.

We can all agree that eternal life is the gift of those who profess Christ as Lord and believe in His resurection from the dead.

Soma's paradox is how can one be eternaly tormented if they are not alive. Where do we start in solving this mystery? How bout Revelation 20:10-15, where it tells us all who are not found in the book of like are cast into the lake of fire.

Now what's to say that this second death as the Bible says is a physical death? They are already physically dead, so how is it that they are being Judged? The Soul must still be alive, to be judged. Once the soul is judged, it is cast into the lake of fire, where a the soul is not only without a body, but without God's presence as well. Thus it is a second death.

The first death for all is the death of the physical body. The second death is when the soul is cast to dwell eternal in the lake of sulfur. Since there is nothing physical to a soul, how can it be called eternally alive?

As for Christians, they can experience eternal life, because those who believe will be given glorified bodies. These bodies won't die, or be corruptable at all. Thus the soul has a body to dwell in, and can be called eternally living.

This is not a valid argument for the following specific reason - the argument stands and falls with the underlying belief that the human person has 2 "parts" - a soul and a body. If this underlying belief can be justified, then perhaps it goes somewhere.

The fact that the argument rests on critical assumptions is seen in the statement:

Since there is nothing physical to a soul, how can it be called eternally alive?

This statement presumes that the word soul refers to a non-physical attribute of the human person. This statement needs to be justified in order for the overall argument to be valid.

 

[jgredline]

SOUL NASB TOPICAL INDEX
In its most comprehensive sense the term soul signifies life constituted in an individual being, thus, “a living being†(cf. Ge 2:7). As such it is used for the totality of the being, including material (body) and immaterial (spirit) aspects (e.g., animals, Ge 1:21, translated “living creaturesâ€Â; and humans, Ge 2:7). Closely related to this is its use for the person (as a substitute for personal pronouns), i.e., “my soul†= “me†or “myself.†It is in this sense that the term soul is used for the person of God. It is also frequently used for the life of the individual being (i.e., at death the soul departs, e.g., Ge 35:18), or various expressions of a living being (e.g., desires, appetites, emotions).
While the human person (e.g., Ge 2:7) includes both body and spirit, the soul is referred to as distinct from the body (e.g., Mt 10:28) and may exist temporarily in this separated state. The unnatural separation of body and soul is due to sin and its consequence (death).



Nelson’s New Illustrated Bible Dictionary: Soul
SOUL  a word with two distinct meanings in the Bible:
1. That which makes a human or animal body alive. This usage of the word “soul†refers to life in the physical body. The best example of this usage are those passages in the New Testament in which the Greek word for soul is translated as “life.†“For whoever desires to save his life [soul] will lose it,†Jesus declared, “but whoever loses his life [soul] for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?†(Mark 8:36–37).
This idea is also present in the Old Testament. For example, the soul of a dying person departed at death (Gen. 35:18). The prophet Elijah brought a child back to life by stretching himself upon the child three times and praying that God would let the child’s soul come back into him (1 Kin. 17:19–23).
2. The word soul also refers to the inner life of a person, the seat of emotions, and the center of human personality. The first use of the word




Soulâ€â€the immaterial part of man
A. Descriptive of:
People Acts 2:41, 43
Sinner James 5:20
Emotional life 1 Sam. 18:1, 3
Spiritual life Ps. 42:1, 2, 4
Disembodied state Rev. 6:9; Rev. 20:4

B. Characteristics of:
Belongs to God Ezek. 18:3, 4
Possesses immortality Matt. 10:28
Most vital asset Matt. 16:26
Leaves body at death Gen. 35:18

C. Abilities of, able to:
Believe Heb. 10:39
Love God Luke 10:27
Sin Mic. 6:7
Prosper 3 John 2
Survive death Matt. 10:28

D. Duties of, to:
Keep itself Deut. 4:9
Seek the Lord Deut. 4:29
Love the Lord Deut. 6:5
Serve the Lord Deut. 10:12
Store God’s Word Deut. 11:18
Keep God’s Law Deut. 26:16
Obey God Deut. 30:2, 6, 10
Get wisdom Prov. 19:8

E. Enemies of, seen in:
Fleshly lusts 1 Pet. 2:11
Evil environment 2 Pet. 2:8
Sin Lev. 5:4, 15, 17
Adultery Prov. 6:32
Evil men Prov. 22:24, 25
Ignorance Prov. 8:36
Hell Prov. 23:14

F. Of the righteous:
Kept by God Ps. 121:7
Vexed by sin 2 Pet. 2:8
Subject to authorities Rom. 13:1
Purified by obedience 1 Pet. 1:22
Not allowed

 

[CP_Mike]

SOUL NASB TOPICAL INDEX
In its most comprehensive sense the term soul signifies life constituted in an individual being, thus, “a living being†(cf. Ge 2:7). As such it is used for the totality of the being, including material (body) and immaterial (spirit) aspects (e.g., animals, Ge 1:21, translated “living creaturesâ€Â; and humans, Ge 2:7). Closely related to this is its use for the person (as a substitute for personal pronouns), i.e., “my soul†= “me†or “myself.†It is in this sense that the term soul is used for the person of God. It is also frequently used for the life of the individual being (i.e., at death the soul departs, e.g., Ge 35:18), or various expressions of a living being (e.g., desires, appetites, emotions).
While the human person (e.g., Ge 2:7) includes both body and spirit, the soul is referred to as distinct from the body (e.g., Mt 10:28) and may exist temporarily in this separated state. The unnatural separation of body and soul is due to sin and its consequence (death).



Nelson’s New Illustrated Bible Dictionary: Soul
SOUL  a word with two distinct meanings in the Bible:
1. That which makes a human or animal body alive. This usage of the word “soul†refers to life in the physical body. The best example of this usage are those passages in the New Testament in which the Greek word for soul is translated as “life.†“For whoever desires to save his life [soul] will lose it,†Jesus declared, “but whoever loses his life [soul] for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?†(Mark 8:36–37).
This idea is also present in the Old Testament. For example, the soul of a dying person departed at death (Gen. 35:18). The prophet Elijah brought a child back to life by stretching himself upon the child three times and praying that God would let the child’s soul come back into him (1 Kin. 17:19–23).
2. The word soul also refers to the inner life of a person, the seat of emotions, and the center of human personality. The first use of the word




Soulâ€â€the immaterial part of man
A. Descriptive of:
People Acts 2:41, 43
Sinner James 5:20
Emotional life 1 Sam. 18:1, 3
Spiritual life Ps. 42:1, 2, 4
Disembodied state Rev. 6:9; Rev. 20:4

B. Characteristics of:
Belongs to God Ezek. 18:3, 4
Possesses immortality Matt. 10:28
Most vital asset Matt. 16:26
Leaves body at death Gen. 35:18

C. Abilities of, able to:
Believe Heb. 10:39
Love God Luke 10:27
Sin Mic. 6:7
Prosper 3 John 2
Survive death Matt. 10:28

D. Duties of, to:
Keep itself Deut. 4:9
Seek the Lord Deut. 4:29
Love the Lord Deut. 6:5
Serve the Lord Deut. 10:12
Store God’s Word Deut. 11:18
Keep God’s Law Deut. 26:16
Obey God Deut. 30:2, 6, 10
Get wisdom Prov. 19:8

E. Enemies of, seen in:
Fleshly lusts 1 Pet. 2:11
Evil environment 2 Pet. 2:8
Sin Lev. 5:4, 15, 17
Adultery Prov. 6:32
Evil men Prov. 22:24, 25
Ignorance Prov. 8:36
Hell Prov. 23:14

F. Of the righteous:
Kept by God Ps. 121:7
Vexed by sin 2 Pet. 2:8
Subject to authorities Rom. 13:1
Purified by obedience 1 Pet. 1:22
Not allowed

Hi JG,
Here is a more correct view of of Biblical anthropology of man as it does not contradict Numbers 23:10, Ezekiel 18:4 etc

THE PICTURE - WINDOWS Nephesh - Psyche - Soul
The important passage in Genesis 2:7 sets the scene for this 'window - word' into the nature of personhood. An individual becomes a 'nephesh' from the infusion of divine breath into moulded dust. In physical terms 'nephesh' means, 'neck', 'throat', 'gullet' and came to mean 'life', that 'vital motion' which distinguishes a living being from a corpse.
'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
• it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
• it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.• it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
• it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
• it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].
The New Testament uses the Greek 'psyche' with the sense of the Hebrew 'nephesh'. Paul's writings are significant for how rarely he uses it. The Synoptics are interesting in that one third of their usage refers to life beyond death [Mt 10:28,39; 16:25-26; Mk 8:35-37; Lk 9:24; 21:19], due to the overlap of present and future in the Kingdom of God; revolutionary in terms of its Hebrew roots.This 'nephesh' is primarily the life of the whole person in terms of strongly instinctive [animal] activity. It reflects the glory and richness of God's gift of life to him though susceptible to death. It is not an independent substance which, as many have argued, survives death. It is, as we shall see a highly complex image very easy to misinterpret.
Ruah - Pneuma - Spirit
This 'picture - window' into personhood highlights our unique relationship with God.'Ruah' has its roots in the 'wind' which emphasises both its powerful and yet subtle nature. 'Ruah' is used in a number of different contexts:-
• for demonic activity [ISam 16:14].
• for the 'principle of life' [akin to 'nephesh' often used interchangeably]. It is the life force present everywhere; independent, universal, it does not die.
• for the vital energy dwelling within each individual, that force which affects temperament.
Human 'ruah' is more than just the natural breath we breathe [which is 'nesama']. There is a vital energy within each person which is the result of the special 'in-breathing' of God; the centre of thoughts, decisions, moods, and is the dimension of personhood most directly open to the influence of God. 'Ruah' particularly stresses:-
• the direction of the will, it is the energy behind willing and acting, that which urges good and evil [Isa 29:24; Ps 51:12].
• the deep emotions; passion [Jg 8:3], grief [Gen 26:35] zeal [Hag 1:14], often seen in the panting of excitement or distress which is different from normal breathing.
• the seat of individual moral qualities and attitudes [Ecc 7:8; Isa 57:15; Num 14:24]. Ezekiel sees the Messianic age as a period when individuals will be permeated by Yahweh's 'ruah' which in turn will renew their own [11; 19; 18:31; 36:26; 39:29]. This is one of the most important words in Paul's vocabulary with his emphasis on regeneration, sanctification, fellowship with God [Gal. 5:22-23 etc].
• the experience of being in touch with God and under God's influence. The human 'ruah' searches out God's ways [Ps 77:7; Isa 26;9], it can be stirred or hardened by God [Jer 51; 11; Dt 2:30].
'Ruah' presents us with human nature's in interplay with the nature of God. It is stressing a person open to and transmitting the life of God [Rm 8:16; ICor 2:10-11]. It has no physical 'animal' character, [never associated with blood], transcending mere desire or feeling.
Leb - Kardia - Heart'Leb' is a 'window - word' that looks in at personhood in terms of deepest emotions and from the perspective of intellect and will. 'Leb', in some ways, draws together every spiritual process. It is'conscious spiritual activity'.
It was early recognised that emotions and intense feelings produce physical effects in the heart [slow, quick, intermittent pulse rates, sometimes strong pain]. So it has come to picture the epicentre of the human person as an emotional being. Other bodily organs have been drawn alongside to add other facets to this idea:-
• Kidneys: the unfathomable depths of an individual, centre of emotions that only God can search out and test [Jer 11:20; 12:2; Isa 29:13].
• Bowels: emotions that can be deeply agitated; seething fermenting, troubling [Job 30:27; Lam 1:20].
• Inwards-Belly: emphasising the unique character of human spiritual nature in contrast to the external world [Phil 3:19; Jn 7:38].
• Bones: the basic structural element in man; spiritually and emotionally as

well as physically [Ps 35:10; Pr 3:8], they suffer seismic shock in emotional distress [Jer 23:9].
The other very important emphasis of 'leb' is personhood in terms of their inner direction; the deliberate conscious activity of the will and the responsibility it brings.
What comes from an individuals heart is 'the distinct property of the whole person' making them responsible for it. The 'responsible will' is central to the biblical concept of the 'heart'. Making God's will our own requires a new heart [Ezk 36:26].
Paul in his writings uses 'kardia' with all the senses of the Hebrew 'leb', but enlarges it by the introduction of two other words that emphasis 'will' and ' responsibilities':-
• Mind [nous]: human intellectual capacity [Phil 4:7] which may be good or bad. It may be immoral, vain, corrupt defiled [Rm 1:28; Eph 4:17]. It contains God's law [Rm 7:23] and in a Christian is renewed transforming life [Rm 12:2], imparting the mind of Christ [ICor 2:16].
• Conscience [suneidessis]: human faculty for moral judgment. It can be defiled [ICor 8:7] or pure [ITim 3:9]. It is that consciousness of 'being right within one's heart' [Rm2:15].
So 'leb' is conscious spiritual activity, stressing the sense of responsibility.

 

[CP_Mike]

continued.

Contrast : Nephesh, Ruah, Leb
It will be quite clear that 'nephesh', 'ruah', and 'leb' overlap one another at significant points.
The distinctions between 'nephesh' and 'leb' at the higher level of understanding is very difficult. They are often used interchangeably [cf Ex 6:9 with Jg 16:16; Ecc 7:8 with Job 6:11], and yet they are not the same. The distinction is found back at their roots.
The overlap between all three is to be expected when we remember each is considering the whole man from a slightly different angle. Their contrasting stresses may be seen as:-
• Nephesh : instinctive 'animal' activity.
• Leb : conscious spiritual activity.
• Ruah : personhood open to the influence of the nature of God.
'Nephesh' and 'leb' stand in contrast with 'ruah' between them. 'Nephesh' and 'ruah' stress the 'lower' and 'higher' levels of consciousness.
Basar - Sarx - Flesh
'Basar' is the 'window - word' that looks at 'the whole life substance of personhood organised in visible form'. It is common to both human and beast. As we have seen we do not have a body, we are a body. 'Basar' is 'nephesh' in its outward form, the same reality is involved, a person as a living being. It is the whole tangible form of a person controlled by the 'nephesh', [there are different Hebrew words for simply the muscular parts of the body and for a lifeless corpse]. The Hebrew scriptures do not have a word for 'the body' in the way we would understand that term [the whole]. 'Basar' is 'flesh', though [as we shall see] the New Testament term 'body' is rooted back into it.
The Bible places high value on a person's physical aspect, 'basar' affirms our physical existence. It destroys the Greek idea, that has so often polluted Christian thinking, that 'the flesh' is a prison cell, the enemy of the spirit, which incarcerates the 'real self in matter.
However the Bible also affirms that the physical alone does not give complete meaning to personhood. 'Flesh' is simply the whole person from one particular perspective:-
• it is personhood in corporeal form: often used as a personal pronoun [2Cor 5:5; Eph 5:28]; notice how 'flesh', 'longs after God' [Ps 63:1], 'rejoices in God' [Ps 84:2].
• it is personhood in external and visible in contrast to internal and spiritual [Gal 4:13-14; 2Cor 12:7].
• it is personhood in earthly solidarity with earthly existence [Phil 1:24; Gal 2:20]. It is God's chosen will for us to be part of this world, our God-given sphere of life. It is neutral. John stresses Jesus came 'in the flesh' [Jn 1:14; Un 4:2].
• it is personhood in contrast to God: human as opposed to divine. It is 'mere mortals' in their weakness, their impotence, their mortality, temporary, perishable; in contrast to the power and eternal nature of God.
• it is personhood in opposition to God; flesh has been exploited by the rebellious forces of 'this age' and has fallen under sin and death [Rm 8:12; Gal 5:13]. It is a person living for this world. Their God-given place has taken over as the principle of his life and conduct [humanism]. An individual in their self-sufficiency. For this reason flesh will neither 'glory before God' [ICor 1:29], nor 'inherit the kingdom' [ICor 15:50]. In this sense 'being in the flesh' is incompatible with being a Christian [Rm 8:8]; not because it is evil but because it distorts a person's relationship with God.
'Flesh' is the whole person in visible form and it is good. Dependent life which requires a physical organism to sustain it. It stresses human impotence and the fact that ultimately we are wholly perishable. There is no promise of resurrection for the 'flesh'.
Basar - Soma - Body
The word 'body' is unique as a 'picture - window' into the whole person. It is a word that takes on particular significance in the New Testament vocabulary of Paul. The word 'flesh' [ ['sarx'] properly translates the Hebrew 'basar'. The word 'body' ['soma'] must find its origin in the same Hebrew root, but it develops quite differently. Paul speaks of 'the body of the flesh' [Col 2:11]; this makes a complete identity between 'body' and 'flesh'. It is significant that the Greeks stressed the contrast between 'body' and 'soul', while Paul draws the contrast between 'body' and 'flesh'.
The word 'body' carries the following emphases:-
• it is the external presence of the whole person. It is what an individual has that makes their earthly life possible [Gal 6:17; 2Cor 10:10]. In as much as it is the sum of sensual functions and physical appetites, it will pass away. Only when the 'body' has emphasised everything in 'flesh' does it diverge from it.
• it is personhood in opposition to God. The 'body' is identified with 'flesh' in the power of sin and corruption [Rm 6:6] humiliation [Rm 7:24] dishonour [ICor 15:43] and lust [Rm 6:12]. It is because sin is not just 'fleshly' but a reality of the whole person that it is essential that redemption be accomplished as a bodily event.
• it is what personhood is. The whole person is an expression of the very core of their being. Hence fornication is a sin against the body [ICor 6:18]. It is the 'body' that is the temple of the Holy Spirit [ICor 6:19-20].
• it is personhood made for God. It emphasised the strength of human creativity [ICor 6:13-20]. In contrast to 'flesh' it is not merely the external as opposed to the spiritual. It is not merely the human as opposed to the divine.
• it is personhood in solidarity. 'Body' stresses that which binds one individual to another. It contrasts the Greek idea which saw the body as the boundary that separated one person from all others. The 'body' never stresses the individual [singular or plural are not significant], it is social. It emphasises the solidarity of the human race [Heb 13:3]. Biblically a person's individuality is found only in their relationship before God [Jer 31:29-30]. It is in the vertical direction that biblical individualism is seen.
• it is the whole person destined for God. 'Body' stresses an individual's 'goal', 'destination', and 'end' in God, rather than their origins; 'the body is for the Lord' [ICor 6:13]. Only the resurrection reveals a person's true destiny, and only the 'body' carries an individual into their resurrection, and that as part of the 'Body of Christ'. Before the body is raised it is essential that it dies first [Jn 12:24; ICor 15:36]. 'Flesh' must be replaced by a 'resurrection body'.

 

[jgredline]

Hi JG,
Here is a more correct view of of Biblical anthropology of man as it does not contradict Numbers 23:10, Ezekiel 18:4 etc

CP
Instead of custting and pasting your way through arguments, YOU tell me wat those two verses mean to you. Give me you answers in the context that they were written in.

 

[CP_Mike]

CP
Instead of custting and pasting your way through arguments, YOU tell me wat those two verses mean to you. Give me you answers in the context that they were written in.

Hi JG,
Thanks for asking.

The notion that 'soul' is something like 'our essence' or 'real person inside' is the core of this debate.

So.

Numbers 23:10..Let me(Nephesh) die the death of the righteous. Let my end be like theirs!

So a 'nephesh' dies whether righteous or not.

What that means to me is when I die, my 'vital life' dies. The actual life itself does not mean my essence or anything else like that. My body is dead. It does not mean afterwards that my existence is extinguished. I hope for the resurrection when Jesus comes back.
So my point with these 'cut and paste' points, links, scriptures is a challenge against the popular definition of 'soul' and neoplatonic dualism. My only interest is that we grasp the original Hebrew ideas about personhood and reject the pagan Greek meanings that pollute christian thought.

Ezekiel 18:4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the sonâ€â€both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

'Nephesh' or 'soul' as it is translated here means 'the whole person' in a physical living form. What this means to me is that a person will die as a result of God's judgement for sin. The righteous soul will live (a long time) and the promise of eternal life after the resurrection.

So, these scriptures blattently explain that 'soul' is not a 'part' of a person that live on, rather that physical death means that the 'nephesh' has died and not gone someplace else. (compare with Job 3: with the Hebrews belief that after death, they were 'Rephaim' in Sheol as in Job 3: and Isiah 14:10).

Once you find the key to understanding the Hebrew position, then all the other scriptures make perfect sense without the contradictions that obviously occur.

 

[Solo]

This statement presumes that the word soul refers to a non-physical attribute of the human person. This statement needs to be justified in order for the overall argument to be valid.

According to Jesus, the soul is separate from the physical body.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28