The Wages of Sin is ..... Eternal Life in Hell!

[Soma-Sight]

This has been a very exciting thread..... 8-)

 

[Drew]

Hello jgredline:

In one of your posts in this thread, you reproduce the following material from Strong's:

Quote:
1 the death of the body. 1a that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended. 1b with the implied idea of future misery in hell.

This material does indeed agree with your position, I would think.

It has been claimed that Strong's also expresses the view that Lazarus in Luke 16 is a fictional character.

If this claim is true, please explain precisely on what basis you accept Strong's opinion in respect to one assertion and not the other. Presumably, it cannot be the authority of Strong's, since such authority would be accorded equally well to both assertions.

 

[SputnikBoy]

It seems that jg is ignoring this, Drew. But, anyone with a Strong's Concordance can check 'Lazarus' out for themselves. I'll even help them out. It is 2976.

Can anyone tell me what the Young's Concordance has to say about the definition of the name 'Lazarus'?

 

[guibox]

Can anyone tell me what the Young's Concordance has to say about the definition of the name 'Lazarus'?

Young's Concordance does not include a commentary like Strongs. It merely lays out the Hebrew and Greek, their meaning and in which instances of scripture they are used.

It is much more scholarly and unbiased then Strongs and there is no preconceived ideas explained into what doesn't belong like Strongs does.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Young's Concordance does not include a commentary like Strongs. It merely lays out the Hebrew and Greek, their meaning and in which instances of scripture they are used.

It is much more scholarly and unbiased then Strongs and there is no preconceived ideas explained into what doesn't belong like Strongs does.

So, while I don't necessarily want to give jg or anyone else a 'loophole' here, could this mean that the author of Strong's Concordance has a bias toward the parable concept? Or, could their definition of the 'Lazarus' character in Luke as being 'imaginary' be unbiased and therefore legit?

Of course, whatever is the answer does not in any way, shape, or form lessen the fact that the Rich Man & Lazarus IS !!!!!! a parable that encompasses a popular Hebrew fable of the day.

 

[Preacher Boy]

Of course, whatever is the answer does not in any way, shape, or form lessen the fact that the Rich Man & Lazarus IS !!!!!! a parable that encompasses a popular Hebrew fable of the day.

Regardless of your false veiw of this being a parable or not my friend, this is NOT a parable!

Revelation 20:11-15
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[John the Baptist]

John here, I did some extra emphasis in your reply below for a question for thought. How do the dead stand before the Godhead? By their RECORD books. See Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
-------

Regardless of your false veiw of this being a parable or not my friend, this is NOT a parable!

Revelation 20:11-15
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the d-e-a-d, small and great, s-t-a-n-d before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Regardless of your false veiw of this being a parable or not my friend, this is NOT a parable!

TO WHOMEVER IT MAY CONCERN:

UNTIL such times as those who wish to debate THE PARABLE of the Rich Man & Lazarus FIRST do an ACTUAL STUDY on the text as I have and are therefore competent enough to debate in an educated, scholarly fashion, I refuse to deal with them. I will not continue to cover the same ground repeatedly with those who flaunt their ignorance almost with a flair.

 

[Preacher Boy]

TO WHOMEVER IT MAY CONCERN:

UNTIL such times as those who wish to debate THE PARABLE of the Rich Man & Lazarus FIRST do an ACTUAL STUDY on the text as I have and are therefore competent enough to debate in an educated, scholarly fashion, I refuse to deal with them. I will not continue to cover the same ground repeatedly with those who flaunt their ignorance almost with a flair.

Excuse my misplaced punctuation in previous post...

Regardless of your false veiw of this being a parable or not my friend.



This(rev 20:11-15) however is NOT a parable!
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

Revelation 20:11-15
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Excuse my misplaced punctuation in previous post...

Regardless of your false veiw of this being a parable or not my friend.



This(rev 20:11-15) however is NOT a parable!
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

Despite your misplaced punctuation you still have no idea what the PARABLE of the Rich Man & Lazarus is all about. Since I refuse to talk about this with anyone who is ignorant of the facts, what I WILL suggest is that you read over the posts that have already dealt with and addressed this issue in detail. THEN come back and refute the facts WITH facts if you so wish.

Revelation 20:11-15
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

John the Baptist has already responded to the above.

 

[Jon-Marc]

Although all die eventually, the death referred to is spiritual. Therefore those who have not been forgiven of sin will spend eternity in hell. Actually, in the Lake of Fire, into which hell itself will be cast someday--along with satan and all his followers.

 

[John the Baptist]

Although all die eventually, the death referred to is spiritual. Therefore those who have not been forgiven of sin will spend eternity in hell. Actually, in the Lake of Fire, into which hell itself will be cast someday--along with satan and all his followers.

****
Oh' 'i' see, the devil was telling the truth in Genesis 3:4. :roll: I suggest that we take a stand for what the Godhead 'INSPIRED' in Ezekiel 18:4 & Ezekiel 18:20!

And Obadiah 1:16 tell's it just as CLEARLY, 'and they shall be as though they had not been." And Peter talks about
Paul's readers having problems???? 2 Peter 3:16
Compare the other scriptures Peter talks about in Psalms 37:10

"And yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider [his place], and it shall not be." And still yet, some believe the evil one over the Godheads Word of Gen.3:4

--John

 

[Oscar3]

John
Are you a JW or a SDA ?
Its very hard to understand your position and what you say in your post.

 

[John the Baptist]

****
Oh' 'i' see, the devil was telling the truth in Genesis 3:4. :roll: I suggest that we take a stand for what the Godhead 'INSPIRED' in Ezekiel 18:4 & Ezekiel 18:20!

And Obadiah 1:16 tell's it just as CLEARLY, 'and they shall be as though they had not been." And Peter talks about
Paul's readers having problems???? 2 Peter 3:16
Compare the other scriptures Peter talks about in Psalms 37:10

"And yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider [his place], and it shall not be." And still yet, some believe the evil one over the Godheads Word of Gen.3:4

--John

_________


John here: These very simple 'Inspired' verses are hard to be understood ?

Yet, we do 'understand' that all one needs to do is only believe, huh?. Believe what??? Matthew 4:4.

 

[Jon-Marc]

Satan, the father of lies and great deceiver, often uses a little truth to mask his many lies. God said that if they ate of the fruit of the forbidden tree they would at that moment die. Adam and Eve took that to mean they would die PHYSICALLY, but they did not die physically at that time. They did, however, BEGIN to die physically, and they DID die spiritually in that they lost the fellowship they had with God. Adam walked and talked with God in the Garden, but that fellowship was broken because of sin.

They DID die at that time. Their fellowship with God died, and their body began to die. Since they didn't physically die at the moment they ate of the fruit, does that mean God lied? NO! Death was introduced into the equation--spiritual and eventually physical death.

 

[John the Baptist]

Satan, the father of lies and great deceiver, often uses a little truth to mask his many lies. God said that if they ate of the fruit of the forbidden tree they would at that moment die. Adam and Eve took that to mean they would die PHYSICALLY, but they did not die physically at that time. They did, however, BEGIN to die physically, and they DID die spiritually in that they lost the fellowship they had with God. Adam walked and talked with God in the Garden, but that fellowship was broken because of sin.

They DID die at that time. Their fellowship with God died, and their body began to die. Since they didn't physically die at the moment they ate of the fruit, does that mean God lied? NO! Death was introduced into the equation--spiritual and eventually physical death.

****
Friend, John here: From that moment on all mankind are required to be Born Again (John 3:3) or are seen as in Obadiah 1:16 to be as though they had never been, blotted out of existence.

 

[jgredline]

John
I have no clue as to what you are saying with those verses you quoted. I am guessing you need help with them to understand them..
I will see If I can be of help here.


Eze 18:4
4 “Behold, all souls are bMine; The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. nkjv

Eze 18:20
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

John. A little history first.
The The people of Judah had a proverb which blamed their sins on the failure of their ancestors: Keep in mind that a proverb is nothing more than a saying.
“The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge.â€Â

God refutes the proverb, stating that individuals are held responsible for their own sins.
In verses 5–24 He then gives several examples of His principles of judgment:
A. A man who shuns sin and lives righteously shall surely live .
B. A righteous man’s wicked son ... shall surely die. The Jews during the captivity as well as in the Lord Jesus’ time, prided themselves on having Abraham as their father. God points out that it will do no good to have a righteous father, if their own life is wicked. people also have the tendency to rely on the spirituality of others. I see this all the time and I have done the same in my early Christian years.... But the righteous and holy life of our fathers and godly leaders must become a reality in our own lives!!!!!!
C. An unrighteous man’s righteous son ... shall surely live, but the unrighteous father ... shall die for his iniquities .
D. A wicked man who repents and turns from his sins will live.
E. A righteous man who turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity ... shall die.
By the way John, there is no contradiction between verse 20 and Exodus 20:5. It is true, as taught in Exodus, that children are generally involved in the consequences of their parents’ misdeeds. It is also true, as taught here, that each one is personally responsible for his or her actions.
In verse 20, the punishment here is temporal, not eternal. It is physical death because of sin now. The principles stated in verses 5–24 are not dealing with eternal life; otherwise we would be forced to conclude that salvation is by works (verses. 5–9) and that the righteous may eventually be lost, two doctrines clearly refuted by our Lord in the NT (e.g., Eph. 2:8, 9; John 10:28). So don't try and pull this off here, it will not fly.

Now to keep with the contect of these section of scripture, lets take a very breif look at 18:25–32 The people continued to accuse God of injustice, but He shows that there is no injustice because even a wicked man can be saved by turning from his sins, and that is what the Lord wants them to do.
When God forgives, He forgets. This does not indicate a poor memory but the perfect satisfaction of His justice through the atoning work of Christ.

For the believer the case is closed.

 

[guibox]

Satan, the father of lies and great deceiver, often uses a little truth to mask his many lies. God said that if they ate of the fruit of the forbidden tree they would at that moment die. Adam and Eve took that to mean they would die PHYSICALLY, but they did not die physically at that time. They did, however, BEGIN to die physically, and they DID die spiritually in that they lost the fellowship they had with God. Adam walked and talked with God in the Garden, but that fellowship was broken because of sin.

They DID die at that time. Their fellowship with God died, and their body began to die. Since they didn't physically die at the moment they ate of the fruit, does that mean God lied? NO! Death was introduced into the equation--spiritual and eventually physical death.

Your belief presupposes the view that man has an immortal soul that survives the physical death. This is not supported in the Bible. By sinning, man brought death...PERIOD. That means physical death and death thereafter. However, Christ brought LIFE. That doesn't mean 'life' merely on this earth (i.e., I have come that you might have life more abundantly') but 'eternal life'. To say that death is merely 'spiritual death' and that he will continue to exist consciously after physical death means that Christ came only to save us from 'spiritual death'. This is false for Christ DIED completely and then was resurrected from death. He didn't merely die a 'spiritual death'. He died an eternal death.

This was the whole point of it happening the way it did. Eternal life is only realized at resurrection. This is not 'spiritual life' but immortality. The opposite is eternal death not conscious separation. This is an unprovable assumption read into the clear word 'death'.

 

[jgredline]

Obadiah KJV
For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.

John
This section of scripture is one I am not real familiar with, but none the less,
Here is a commentary I just read at crosswalk.com.. I read the entire chapter to grab the context.. I hope you know that this chapter is speaking of nations.

16. ye … upon my holy mountainâ€â€a periphrasis for, “ye Jews†[Maurer], whom Obadiah now by a sudden apostrophe addresses. The clause, “upon My holy mountain,†expresses the reason of the vengeance to be taken on Judah’s foes; namely, that Jerusalem is God’s holy mountain, the seat of His temple, and Judah His covenant-people. Je 49:12, which is copied from Obadiah, establishes this view (compare 1Pe 4:17).
as ye have drunk, &c.â€â€namely, the cup of wrath, being dispossessed of your goods and places as a nation, by Edom and all the heathen; so shall all the heathen (Edom included) drink the same cup (Ps 60:3; Is 51:17, 22; Is 51:17, 22, Je 13:12, 13; 25:15–33; 49:12; 51:7; Is 51:17, 22, Je 13:12, 13, La 4:21, 22 Na 3:11; Hab 2:16).
continuallyâ€â€whereas Judah’s calamity shall be temporary (Ob 1:17). The foes of Judah shall never regain their former position (Ob 1:18, 19).
swallow downâ€â€so as not to leave anything in the cup of calamity; not merely “drink†(Ps 75:8).
be as though they had not beenâ€â€not a trace left of their national existence (Job 10:19; Ps 37:36; Ez 26:21).
Jamieson, R., Fausset, A., & and Brown, D. (1997). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible


John
Here is another commentary by J VERNON McGEE
For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been [Obad. 16].
In other words, God says to Edom, “As you have done, it is going to be done to you. You will be rewarded in the same way.†This is what we call today poetic justice.Lex talionis is the law of retaliation. The Lord Jesus said, “As you judge, so shall you be judged†(see Matt. 7:1). Or, “Whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap†(see Gal. 6:7). Edom will suffer in the same ways that she caused others to suffer. I very frankly shudder when I consider that my nation was the first nation to drop an atom bomb and that we have been a warlike nation. I do not think that God lets any nation get by with that. The history of all nations confirms that, as they have dealt it out, in a similar way it has come back to them. This is something which has worked itself out throughout the history of the world.
In verses 17 through 21 we come to the second and last major division of the Book of Obadiah. It is only a few verses, and it concerns the nation Israel. For Edom it was destruction, but for Israel it is to be restoration. The little nation of Israel fits into the program of almighty God. Everything fits into the program of almighty God. For every individual, it does not matter who you are, the interesting thing is that had not God thought of you, you wouldn’t be around. You were in the mind of God. The great question is: Are you going to be in step with Him? Are you going to move into eternity with Him or against Him? His plan and program will be carried out, and you will do well to be on His side.
McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary.

So I did a little research for you. The part I believe you want to fit souls with is infact speaking of a nation national excistance.

 

[Jon-Marc]

Apparently I'm not expressing myself and will give up trying.