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The Word came from heaven to free people from sin!

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This is NOT about Jesus dying on the cross … and presto, all believers’ sins are forgiven!
No, this is all about …
● Jesus FREEING BACs from the bondage of sin
● The fact that BACs no longer HAVE to sin
● The fact that BACs are now FREE to NOT sin
●●● If BACs do sin, it is because they have CHOSEN to sin (with our God-given free will)

This is all from the book of Romans …

THE FACTS
6:6a -
our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ
so that sin might lose its power in our lives
6:6b - we are no longer slaves to sin
6:7 - we were set free from the power of sin
6:10 - he died once to break the power of sin
6:11 - consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin
6:14 - sin is no longer your master
6:17 - once you were slaves of sin
6:18 - now you are free from your slavery to sin
6:20 - when you were slaves to sin …
6:22 - now you are free from the power of sin
7:6 - you are no longer captive to its power (the law of sin and death)
8:2 - the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you
from the power of sin that leads to (eternal) death
8:3 - God declared an end to sin’s control over us
8:9 - you are not controlled by your sinful nature
8:12 - you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do


THE INSTRUCTIONS
6:12-13 - Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires.
Do not let any part of your body become an instrument of evil to serve sin.
6:19 - Now you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteous living
so that you will become holy.
6:22 - do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life.


THE WARNINGS
6:16 - Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you CHOOSE to obey?
You can (choose to) be a slave to sin, which leads to (eternal) death,
or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living (i.e. righteousness).
6:23 - For the wages of sin is (eternal) death …
7:13 - So we can see how terrible sin really is.
8:6 - So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to (eternal) death.
8:13a - For if you live by its (the sinful nature’s) dictates, you will die (eternally).


THE SOLUTION
8:13b - But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death
the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live (eternally).


Yes, through the power of the precious Holy Spirit,
you are able to overcome sin and receive eternal life.
Jesus’ definition of an overcomer …
To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne,
as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” (Revelation 3:21)

What did Jesus overcome? … Sin, the world, the devil, eternal death, etc.
.
 
6:22 - do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life.

(I am speaking in human [what is common to man] terms because of the weakness of your flesh.) For just as you presented your members as slaves to immorality and lawlessness, leading to lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, leading to sanctification.
Romans 6:19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 6:19&version=LEB

What is your justification for removing “sanctification” from this verse and replacing it with ‘eternal life’. I checked what the verse actually says.

hagiasmós (a masculine noun derived from 40 /hágios, "holy") – sanctification (the process of advancing in holiness); use of the believer being progressively transformed by the Lord into His likeness (similarity of nature).​

Nowhere in the entire Bible is the word translated as “sanctification” translated as ‘eternal life’. I checked.


And what justification do you have for replacing the death of our mortal bodies (what is common to man, even Jesus) that Paul speaks of with lose of eternal life (de-salvation, i.e. eternal life that’s not really eternal)?

8:6 - So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to (eternal) death.
8:13a - For if you live by its (the sinful nature’s) dictates, you will die (eternally).

And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also make alive your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you.
Romans 8:11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 8:11&version=LEB

BACs have mortal bodies. So what??? Since the BAC has (by definition) His Spirit living in us, He will (not might or has but WILL) also make alive our mortal bodies. BACs do not ‘die eternally’ according to Paul, they are being transformed through a process called sanctification into His likeness. Which includes death of our mortal bodies.
 
(I am speaking in human [what is common to man] terms because of the weakness of your flesh.) For just as you presented your members as slaves to immorality and lawlessness, leading to lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, leading to sanctification.
Romans 6:19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 6:19&version=LEB
What is your justification for removing “sanctification” from this verse and replacing it with ‘eternal life’.
In the OP, I have ...
6:19 NKJV - Now you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteous living
so that you will become holy.

The NLT uses "holy" also.
 
In the OP, I have ...
6:19 NKJV - Now you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteous living
so that you will become holy.

The NLT uses "holy" also.
I know. That’s my point, no translation says righteous living leads to eternal life. It leads to sanctification (holiness). So why did you say v22 says to do these things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life, when Paul says “you have” eternal life now?

But now, having been set free from sin and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit leading to sanctification, and its end is eternal life.
Romans 6:22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 6:22&version=LEB

In v22, Paul says you have two things:
1) your fruit
“and”
2) eternal life

Yes, your fruit that you now have (righteous living) leads to sanctification (which is not eternal life). And yes your fruit has an end (a teleos, a result) which is eternal life.

But you said: “6:22 - do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life”

⬆️ That’s not the whole verse. By posting a snip of a verse, it hides the fact that Paul was actually telling them that “you have” eternal life “now”.

Just as presently you have “now” been set free from sin, you have presently (“now”) eternal life. Cool huh???
 
If we are not born again, do we HAVE to sin?
Are you saying it is required of those who are not born again?
Looking for clarification.
Yes, indeed, absolutely ...
Everyone is born with an inherited sin nature.
So yes, they have to sin.
But, BACs have 3 major blessings, enabling them to overcome sin:
1) the indwelling Holy Spirit
2) the new creation
3) God's word (the Bible)
Yes, God in His word says BACs are actually FREE to NOT sin!
 
... no translation says righteous living leads to eternal life.
I refer you to the righteousness thread ... it's verses say:
Practicing righteousness proves one is righteous, i.e. in a state of salvation.
Working righteousness proves one is righteous, i.e. in a state of salvation.
etc.
 
Two more questions.

  1. Why do they have to sin?
  2. Are we free to not sin or are we free from the condemnation of sin?
 
Two more questions.
  1. Why do they have to sin?
  2. Are we free to not sin or are we free from the condemnation of sin?
Every human must sin because they have a sin nature.
BACs are free to not sin (ref: several verses of Paul).
That's the #1 reason why Jesus came,
and ended up giving the Holy Spirit and a new nature to BACs.
(I talk about BACs, and not we, you, etc. because I don't know who is a BAC.)
 
● The fact that BACs no longer HAVE to sin
● The fact that BACs are now FREE to NOT sin

No one has to sin as it is not forced on anyone to do so, but it is the nature of the flesh to sin as one falls prey to the temptation. This is why as a BAC we are to walk in the Spirit keeping our focus on things from above and not the wicked things of this world, Galatians 5:16, 17, Colossians Chapter 3.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

We are not free to not sin as it's a choice a BAC makes not to sin. Especially since we are sanctified by God and declared holy by His righteousness that we remain blameless before Him. It's all by God's mercy and grace.
 
Every human must sin because they have a sin nature.
BACs are free to not sin (ref: several verses of Paul).
That's the #1 reason why Jesus came,
and ended up giving the Holy Spirit and a new nature to BACs.
(I talk about BACs, and not we, you, etc. because I don't know who is a BAC.)
When you say "have to sin" what that means to me is that it is a requirement.

From this I think I understand why you say BACs are free to not sin. For if it is a requirement to sin before salvation then salvation sets us free from that requirement. Is this what you're saying?

My view is a little different. Before salvation we are not required to sin but it is our nature or we have a propensity to sin. We can't help it because it is part of who we are. Salvation means having have been saved from ourselves despite our sin nature for while we were still sinners, Jesus died for us. We will still sin as 1 John 1 says that if we say we are without sin we lie but through faith in Jesus if we do sin we have an advocate with the Father. If we had been free to not sin as you put it, why would we need an advocate?
 
I refer you to the righteousness thread ...
Okay but you did the same thing there too (inserting eternal life into 6:16 which isn’t there in the Text)


Do you not know that
if you present yourselves to anyone as as obedient slaves,
you are slaves of the one whom you obey,
either (slaves) of sin which leads to (eternal) death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading too righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)

Slaves of obedience > eternal life --- Slaves of sin > eternal death

The verse says that presenting yourself a slave to obedience leads to righteousness. It does not say presenting yourself a slave to obedience leads to eternal life.

If it did say being a ‘slave of obedience’ lead to eternal life, it would contradict what v22 says; namely that they were told they already “now” had eternal life.

But now, having been set free from sin and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit leading to sanctification, and its end is eternal life.
Romans 6:22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 6:22&version=LEB

The message Paul sent was that “now” (right now, presently) you have eternal life and you habe your fruit. Yes, the fruit you have leads to sanctification/holiness. So true. But nowhere does Paul say being a slave to obedience ‘leads to’ eternal life. It leads to sanctification.
 
We are not free to not sin as it's a choice a BAC makes not to sin.
Especially since we are sanctified by God and declared holy by His righteousness that we remain blameless before Him.
It's all by God's mercy and grace.
You gots one too many nots in there! ... Hey, that almost rhymes.
Paul has explained that BACs are indeed free to NOT sin.
We remain righteous before Him through practicing righteousness
(please see the righteousness thread).
This is similar to remaining forgiven by continuing to repent of our sins (1 John 1:7-9).
 
When you say "have to sin" what that means to me is that it is a requirement.
From this I think I understand why you say BACs are free to not sin. For if it is a requirement to sin before salvation then salvation sets us free from that requirement. Is this what you're saying?
My view is a little different. Before salvation we are not required to sin but it is our nature or we have a propensity to sin. We can't help it because it is part of who we are. Salvation means having have been saved from ourselves despite our sin nature for while we were still sinners, Jesus died for us. We will still sin as 1 John 1 says that if we say we are without sin we lie but through faith in Jesus if we do sin we have an advocate with the Father. If we had been free to not sin as you put it, why would we need an advocate?
IMO, we have to sin because we're forced to by our sinful nature.
Yes, that is what I am saying ... and I only say what I see Scripture saying.
Paul in Romans explains all of this repeatedly.
Re: your last sentence:
If we were not free to not sin, wouldn't we need an advocate all the more?
 
The verse says that presenting yourself a slave to obedience leads to righteousness.
It does not say presenting yourself a slave to obedience leads to eternal life.
But nowhere does Paul say being a slave to obedience ‘leads to’ eternal life.
It leads to sanctification.
God must see people as being righteous for them to be finally saved (receive eternal life).
Yes, salvation is a process (e.g. faith must endure until the end of life).
And they must be practicing righteousness for God to see them as being righteous.
And they must be obedient for God to see them as being righteous.
 
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Kindergarden kids have been hired to develop websites.
One false keystroke! ... can cause a big mess.
(I used to be an analyst/programmer on mainframe computers)
 
IMO, we have to sin because we're forced to by our sinful nature.
Yes, that is what I am saying ... and I only say what I see Scripture saying.
Paul in Romans explains all of this repeatedly.
Re: your last sentence:
If we were not free to not sin, wouldn't we need an advocate all the more?
Does a nonbeliever have an advocate with the Father?
 
Nope, but they surely need one, don't they?
What would happen, if they managed to get Jesus to plead for them?
My thoughts are that I don't think any of us can "get" Jesus to plead for us. He does advocate on behalf of those who believe. It's just what He does by His grace but we don't "get" Him to do it. If He does plead for us it is of His choosing, not ours and not by our manipulation, coercion, or anything else.
 
IMO, we have to sin because we're forced to by our sinful nature.
Yes, that is what I am saying ... and I only say what I see Scripture saying.
Paul in Romans explains all of this repeatedly.
Re: your last sentence:
If we were not free to not sin, wouldn't we need an advocate all the more?

We are all born with a sin nature and all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, that's a fact. But, to those who are of Christ need to get up every morning and crucify this flesh and walk in the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lust of the flesh. No one has to sin like it's some kind of command to do so as it's a freewill choice to fall to the temptation to sin.

Even a Spiritually born again child of God will mess up at times as we are still mortal living in this fleshly body where the sin nature dwells. Grace does not give us a license to sin, but when we do we have an intercessor (Christ Jesus) before the Father who makes intercession for us and forgives our sin when we repent of our sin. There will always be a struggle between the flesh and the Spirit and sometimes the flesh will win the battle, but never the war.

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
 
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