Theology of blood atonement, ie salvation murder

[Creative]

"In Mormonism, blood atonement is a controversial doctrine that taught that some crimes are so heinous that the atonement of Jesus does not apply. Instead, to atone for these sins the perpetrators should be killed in a way that would allow their blood to be shed upon the ground as a sacrificial offering." - wikipedia

Basically, we have murder in order to induce salvation. I honestly thought of this Mormon doctrine while the trial of Mormon Jodi Arias was going on.

Perhaps along the same line is the Catholic bishops recent vote to state that we could live in the hope that the souls of aborted baby are baptized by their blood and given an automatic ticket to heaven which I feel is in opposition to what Jesus taught in the Bible. This was done after the RCC slammed the door on the belief of limbo.

I know this is an ugly topic, but is their any foundation in the Bible or logic to feel that ending the life of another assists in salvation for the murdered ?

 

[civilwarbuff]

I know this is an ugly topic, but is their any foundation in the Bible or logic to feel that ending the life of another assists in salvation for the murdered ?

I don't think it is saying the blood of the murderer is used to assist in the salvatiion of the murdered. I think it is saying the blood of the murderer is used to atone for his own sin......

 

[Honey]

I don't take to Mormon ideology one bit. Their founder was a devil of a man and as such not a conduit through which the holy spirit of God would deliver any teachings to a fallen world.

 

[Willie T]

I don't take to Mormon ideology one bit. Their founder was a devil of a man and as such not a conduit through which the holy spirit of God would deliver any teachings to a fallen world.

I can't say I ever met the man. I just know that I don't read the Bible as they do, therefore, I simply don't bother to go to their church.

 

[Honey]

You didn't know Jesus Christ when he walked this earth either but you read his teachings and believe in his Holy Spirit.

Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum were murdered in a jail cell by a mob in Carthage, Illinois, on June 27, 1844. They were being held on charges of child rape.

 

[Creative]

You didn't know Jesus Christ when he walked this earth either but you read his teachings and believe in his Holy Spirit.

Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum were murdered in a jail cell by a mob in Carthage, Illinois, on June 27, 1844. They were being held on charges of child rape.

Smith was arrested after he burned down a newspaper that disparaged his character and called out the Mormon militia in Illinois and declared martial law. Of course the real governor of Illinois called out the real state militia and arrested him. Now, about that newspaper, it was called the Nauvoo Expositor and was run by Mormons who became disenfranchised with Joseph Smith printed their opinion of him including calling him a coward.

Anyway, the two companies of state militia charged with guarding Smith disappeared one night and a mob showed up and Smith was murdered. It is believed the core of the mob was made up of the militia from those two companies. The Illinois Governor conveniently decided to take a trip out of town hours before Smith's murder.

I am not saying you are wrong about the charges of child rape, he may have been charged with that also.

 

[Willie T]

You didn't know Jesus Christ when he walked this earth either but you read his teachings and believe in his Holy Spirit.

Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum were murdered in a jail cell by a mob in Carthage, Illinois, on June 27, 1844. They were being held on charges of child rape.

Thus, you feel justified in calling him a devil?

 

[Creative]

Thus, you feel justified in calling him a devil?

Why don't you post anything positive you feel that you have to say about Joseph Smith ? I myself can think of nothing positive to say about the person who built a religion on polygamist celestial theology and a book that dictates Jesus and Satan were siblings.

 

[Willie T]

Why don't you post anything positive you feel that you have to say about Joseph Smith ? I myself can think of nothing positive to say about the person who built a religion on polygamist celestial theology and a book that dictates Jesus and Satan were siblings.

Just a little surprised that you guys find it so easy to judge other people as being devils. I hear that a lot about the Pope, and really people of any religion others don't agree with. I can see it being said of people who are beheading others, but that usually is not the case with most people being run down.

 

[Creative]

Just a little surprised that you guys find it so easy to judge other people as being devils. I hear that a lot about the Pope, and really people of any religion others don't agree with. I can see it being said of people who are beheading others, but that usually is not the case with most people being run down.

I said he was a devil ? I said I could think of nothing positive to say about him. Quote me where I stated he was a devil. If you want to show charity with institutionalized racism then be my guest. Yep, Mormons teach that once blacks learn how to behave they will turn white.

 

[Willie T]

I said he was a devil ? I said I could think of nothing positive to say about him. Quote me where I stated he was a devil. If you want to show charity with institutionalized racism then be my guest. Yep, Mormons teach that once blacks learn how to behave they will turn white.

In your post #8, you jumped in to defend them against me asking if the poster felt justified to call Smith a devil.... I would say you wanted to hold the other end of their banner for them.

 

[for_his_glory]

What Do Mormons Believe: The Primary Differences Between Mormonism & Christianity

What Do Mormons Believe: Divine Authority
The Mormon church uses two sources as its primary authorities: the Book of Mormon and the Bible. The Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price are also viewed as divinely authoritative.

In contrast, the Christian church (also called biblical Christianity) uses the Holy Bible alone as its authority from God (2 Timothy 3:16). Joseph Smith is not recognized as a prophet.

What Do Mormons Believe: The Nature of God
The Mormon church sees God as the Supreme Being of the universe. However, He gradually acquired that position over a long period of time by living a perfect and righteous life. God the Father has a body (flesh and bones). 1

In contrast, the biblical Christianity proclaims God as eternally and infinitely supreme (Isaiah 44:6; Psalm 90:2). He is the same today as always (James 1:17). He is a spirit Being (John 4:24).

What Do Mormons Believe: The Nature of Man
1. The Mormon church teaches that humans exist as spirit beings before their birth.
2. At physical birth, bodies are given to these spirits. They are also given an opportunity for free-will choice. The physical world represents a period of probation. The status of a person in the afterlife is determined by the way that person lived his/her life on Earth. If the person lived by a satisfactory standard, (including the fulfillment of Mormon temple obligations) that person has the potential to become a god in the after-life.
3. The person can also produce "spirit children" to populate a world of his own (like God did with the earth).
4. In contrast, the Christian church holds that humans do not exist as spirits prior to being born into the world. Humans cannot attain godhood or populate other worlds with "spirit children."

What Do Mormons Believe: The Nature of Jesus Christ
The Mormon church views Jesus and Satan as spirit brothers and sons of God.5 God put forth His plan of salvation for the world, and Satan proposed his own plan. Jesus accepted the Father's plan and offered to implement it as the Savior.6 The Father chose Jesus, and the spirit of Jesus was given a body through the virgin Mary.7 He was crucified on a Roman cross, and rose from the dead three days later to establish His deity. The character and life of Jesus is attainable by anyone who performs at such a righteous level.

In contrast, biblical Christianity teaches that Jesus Christ has existed eternally as the Son of God, the second "person" of the Trinity (Colossians 1:15-18; John 1:1, 3). Jesus took on human flesh about 2000 years ago and was born into the world through the virgin Mary (Luke 2). He was crucified on a Roman cross for our sins (Romans 5:8), and rose from the dead three days later to establish His deity (Mark 16; 1 Corinthians 15:13-17).

What Do Mormons Believe: How do we Achieve Salvation
The Mormon church holds that Jesus Christ overcame physical death and guaranteed physical resurrection to all mankind. However, spiritual death can only be avoided through personal obedience of God's commandments.8 Forgiveness of sins requires faith, repentance and baptism by an approved Mormon priest. The practice of baptism for the dead is an extension of this belief, in which Mormons are baptized in proxy for those who have died without proper baptism.9

In contrast, the Christian church teaches that we are unable to live a life righteous enough to meet God's perfectly holy standard (Romans 3:23; 6:23). Therefore, we establish a relationship with God by faith in the work of Christ on the cross, not by our own works (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5). Baptism and good deeds are acts of obedience to God, but not the means for gaining eternal salvation.

What Do Mormons Believe: Life After Death
The Mormon church maintains that although there is temporary punishment for those that are most wicked, Jesus Christ will establish a new kingdom that will consist of three levels: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom.

In contrast, biblical Christianity holds that there are only two possible fates after death, heaven or hell. These locations are final, both physically and spiritually (Matthew 25:46).

 

[Jim Parker]

Perhaps along the same line is the Catholic bishops recent vote to state that we could live in the hope that the souls of aborted baby are baptized by their blood and given an automatic ticket to heaven which I feel is in opposition to what Jesus taught in the Bible.

Mat 20:20-23 (NKJV) Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Him with her sons, kneeling down and asking something from Him. And He said to her, “What do you wish?” She said to Him, “Grant that these two sons of mine may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on the left, in Your kingdom.” But Jesus answered and said, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?” They said to Him, “We are able.” So He said to them, “You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father.”

By this passage, the Church, from ancient times, has considered the blood of believers and innocent children (such as the ones Herod had murdered trying to get rid of Jesus when He was born) to be a type of baptism. Thus, the thief on the cross who asked Jesus to remember him was considered to have been baptized in his own blood.

So, the bishops have based their opinion on the teaching of the Church which has been accepted for almost 2000 years.

iakov the fool

 

[Razeontherock]

"In Mormonism, blood atonement is a controversial doctrine that taught that some crimes are so heinous that the atonement of Jesus does not apply. Instead, to atone for these sins the perpetrators should be killed in a way that would allow their blood to be shed upon the ground as a sacrificial offering." - wikipedia

Basically, we have murder in order to induce salvation. I honestly thought of this Mormon doctrine while the trial of Mormon Jodi Arias was going on.

Perhaps along the same line is the Catholic bishops recent vote to state that we could live in the hope that the souls of aborted baby are baptized by their blood and given an automatic ticket to heaven which I feel is in opposition to what Jesus taught in the Bible. This was done after the RCC slammed the door on the belief of limbo.

I know this is an ugly topic, but is their any foundation in the Bible or logic to feel that ending the life of another assists in salvation for the murdered ?

The Inquisition thought so.

 

[Creative]

The Inquisition thought so.

The inquisition was against heresy. in over 200 years by almost anyone's accounts less than 1300 executions took place. And btw, only those baptized in the RCC fell under the authority of the inquisition. To hear people tell it millions of protestants were sent to the gas chambers, LOL.

So your comment is just silly.

 

[New Day Coming]

On the topic of a different gospel and LDS, and others that tamper with the gospel...

Galatians 1

6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[Creative]

On the topic of a different gospel and LDS, and others that tamper with the gospel...

Galatians 1

6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Saying, let them be accursed is a lot different than saying murder someone so they are atoned from their sin.

My Douay-Rheims which is the most precise translation from Latin you will ever find actually reads:

"let him be anathema" not "accursed.

While accursed means disliked and anathema can be a synonym of that, anathema can simply mean denounced.

 

[Razeontherock]

The inquisition was against heresy. in over 200 years by almost anyone's accounts less than 1300 executions took place. And btw, only those baptized in the RCC fell under the authority of the inquisition. To hear people tell it millions of protestants were sent to the gas chambers, LOL.

So your comment is just silly.

MY comment is silly?!? Your comment is completely unresponsive to what I said.

 

[ezra]

Thus, you feel justified in calling him a devil?

so you would call him a saint????????

 

[blessedsmithereens]

"In Mormonism, blood atonement is a controversial doctrine that taught that some crimes are so heinous that the atonement of Jesus does not apply. Instead, to atone for these sins the perpetrators should be killed in a way that would allow their blood to be shed upon the ground as a sacrificial offering." - wikipedia

Basically, we have murder in order to induce salvation. I honestly thought of this Mormon doctrine while the trial of Mormon Jodi Arias was going on.

Perhaps along the same line is the Catholic bishops recent vote to state that we could live in the hope that the souls of aborted baby are baptized by their blood and given an automatic ticket to heaven which I feel is in opposition to what Jesus taught in the Bible. This was done after the RCC slammed the door on the belief of limbo.

I know this is an ugly topic, but is their any foundation in the Bible or logic to feel that ending the life of another assists in salvation for the murdered ?

If the Mormon's believe that now that's one thing. But do you think when the Mormon founder's blood was shed for the rapes he committed on little girls covered that in the eyes of his own people? Did Joseph Smith fight the men trying to take his life? Or did he live what he taught and let justice and his blood atone for it?

Mormonism is a very odd faith. Though I commend them for their food bank charity.
They believe that an angel named Moroni revealed gold plates to Joseph and translated them so he'd have a new covenant to bring to the worlds people. All this transpired in a cave.
When Joseph left that encounter he ran to the town he lived in and found no one about. He went to a shop keeper and asked him to come back with him to the cave to see what he had seen. When they arrived the plates were gone.
But that was evidence enough with the story Joseph told to convince the shop keeper it was all true.
And now we have Mormonism.