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This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world...

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2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2
Daniel also wrote in the verse you didn't quote:

"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; [Matthew 24:21, Mark 13:19] and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book [Luke 10:20], will be rescued [Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13]. Daniel 12:1 (NASB)

Who were "Daniel's people", JLB??? To whom was the promise of a resurrection made???

The resurrection is clearly set in the time frame of the "great tribulation" of Jerusalem, so this promise of a resurrection you see as being universal and future was neither. It was as unique an event as the final destruction of the Old Covenant kingdom itself!

You can't take Daniel 12:2 apart from Daniel 12:1 and verse 1 alone refutes your position!
 
P

Pastor Dave

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Paul wrote that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. Yet he also wrote that those who believe have already been transferred into it. How do you reconcile these two facts?

Unless and until you can, you will never understand what he wrote.
I think these folks need to learn and understand the difference between an event and the after effects of it. :)

As weird as it sounds, the TV show, "The Walking Dead" gives us a great example of this in action. <lol>

Not in the zombies, but in those still living and what happens to them.
 
H

Hitch

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If I have your point backward, then I do apologize. I read your post as trying to support the Futurist view of us rising as physical, human beings. If I read your post correctly, then the following applies and please understand that the asterisks, caps and exclamation marks are, as I normally do, used for emphasis and not shouting.




Like Jesus *HAS*? Really, you do not know the body that He *HAS*. You know the body that He *HAD* before He ascended, which may not be identical. Remember, the Scripture says, "for then we shall see Him as He *is*".
When we see Him again it will be without veil, in His glorious nature .
Now why would the writer say that, if they already knew how He would appear, having seen Him before His ascension, if He were the same?
See above
It wouldn't have been a mystery. And Paul also wrote, "I tell you a mystery...". So apparently, things would be *different*, not the same as what they had already seen, since these things were still "a mystery" to the church in general. Paul obviously knew what would happen and so, was telling them. But exactly how Jesus would "appear" was as of yet unknown at that time. And if what they already saw of Him was what He would be when He "appeared", then it would not be an unknown, as it was clearly stated to be. It says, "we SHALL see Him as He is", not "we DID see Him as He is". :)
Interesting the pains you've taken
Also, Futurism says that He's still flesh and blood (even though Jesus Himself left out the word "blood" and specifically said "flesh and bone"), but the truth is, that we simply don't know how much transformation His body had taken yet, nor how much it had taken once He was ascending. Remember, He "disappeared from their sight".
This one is an out and out fabrication. In the previous paragraph a great deal of twisting and turning was inserted, this one goes a step further and simply announces fabrications as fact, casually altering the doctrine based on the words of Christ Himself .
What we do know, is that Jesus seemed to appear and disappear at will and that physical human beings don't do that, even though Criss Angel would like you to believe that they do. :) But spiritual beings did do that throughout the Old Testament, only *appearing* human for the sake of the viewer. That does not make them flesh and blood human beings.
Note the half truth. Despite Dave's fabrication Orthodox believers from the GO to the strictest Southern Baptist do not believe what Dave presents while sharing the expectation of bodily resurrection
And angels, for example, never were, yet appeared that way to humans, when they wanted to and the Scriptures are clear that Jesus is in Heaven, which is a spiritual place and therefore, He is a spiritual being.

What they saw of Jesus, they saw before His ascension and also, we should not compare ourselves to Jesus. His body had to rise physically, as a sign and His body was the only one that did not see corruption. Our bodies will corrupt away. And even Jesus said about His own resurrection, that it was "A SIGN" and the sign is never the event itself. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called a sign. It would be called the event. :)
More of the same
I would also point out that while you said that your quote "ends all the word twisting", if indeed you are attempting to support the idea of our physical bodies resurrecting and us being flesh and blood humans again,
At some point a fabrication becomes an out and out lie. I for one, assume Dave knows that those expecting resurrection do not believe in a 'flesh and blood' body as he makes a point to repeat as often as possible. It is disingenuous at best
then I would point you to the very same verse you started off with, which I quoted from your post and which clearly and without doubt say that; "flesh and blood canNOT inherit the Kingdom of God". It canNOT be done! So how can any doctrine that says it will be done, be correct?
To repeat I believe Dave knows full well no one teaches this. It is a half truth
Now you can add whatever words to it you want, but that's all that would be. You adding words (if indeed that is your doctrine).
Note that Dave added 'blood' to what Jesus said about His resurrected body, and continued to add this same 'blood' all through his post.
The Scripture *itself* does not say that. It says that flesh and blood can NOT inherit the Kingdom of God.

I would also suggest taking a look at that same chapter, a few verses previous and you will read where Paul makes a difference between a physical body and a spiritual body, when he clearly says; "there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body". And regarding the resurrection, says; "it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body".
Paul clearly indicates that what is raised is that which was sown. In direct contradiction to Dave's twisted version below
What is buried is the human flesh and blood, which does decay away. And what is raised is a spiritual body, which will not.

Paul used the example of farming, which most would certainly be familiar with, needing food and not having a "Super Food Mart" down the road. :) And so he used the example of planting a seed. An a seed drops off its shell and it is what is inside that sprouts up out of the ground. And it is our souls; our spiritual selves that sheds our physical bodies, just as Peter said he would "put off this tent" speaking of his own death and it is our spiritual being that goes to Heaven now.

And what else did Paul say in that analogy? Very simple! That "what is sown is not that which shall be raised". What is buried is simply not what is going to rise!
See what I mean? Another use of a half truth, but in this case its fails completely as Paul is clear that which is sown is raised

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
I think we ought to read the Scriptures without seeing our doctrine in them and just let them speak for themselves. And when we have to add words and say things like, "what that really means is...", then we're already on the wrong track! /
Given the above your warning rings hollow. You didnt even blink when you added 'blood ' to what Jesus actually said to suit your needs
And even just comparing Scripture to Scripture, the examples we see of "spiritual bodies" shows us that they appear to be humans for our benefit, not because they actually are physical human beings.
Yet another half truth. It is getting old. Certainly there are angelic beings in heaven,duh. When men are raised and glorified they will be raised and glorified human beings. Today men live the duality of body and spirit. We verily exist in Heaven while we live out out bodily life on earth. Paul is clear enough teaching that after the resurrection the corruptible will be done away.
Anyway, hope this helped and edified those who were interested in this subject and as I said, if I got your point backwards, then please forgive me, I apologize.
 
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P

Pastor Dave

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When we see Him again it will be without veil, in His glorious nature . See above Interesting the pains you've taken This one is an out and out fabrication. In the previous paragraph a great deal of twisting and turning was inserted, this one goes a step further and simply announces fabrications as fact, casually altering the doctrine based on the words of Christ Himself . Note the half truth. Despite Dave's fabrication Orthodox believers from the GO to the strictest Southern Baptist do not believe what Dave presents while sharing the expectation of bodily resurrection More of the same At some point a fabrication becomes an out and out lie. I for one, assume Dave knows that those expecting resurrection do not believe in a 'flesh and blood' body as he makes a point to repeat as often as possible. It is disingenuous at best To repeat I believe Dave knows full well no one teaches this. It is a half truth Note that Dave added 'blood' to what Jesus said about His resurrected body, and continued to add this same 'blood' all through his post. Paul clearly indicates that what is raised is that which was sown. In direct contradiction to Dave's twisted version below See what I mean? Another use of a half truth, but in this case its fails completely as Paul is clear that which is sown is raised

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: Given the above your warning rings hollow. You didnt even blink when you added 'blood ' to what Jesus actually said to suit your needs Yet another half truth. It is getting old. Certainly there are angelic beings in heaven,duh. When men are raised and glorified they will be raised and glorified human beings. Today men live the duality of body and spirit. We verily exist in Heaven while we live out out bodily life on earth. Paul is clear enough teaching that after the resurrection the corruptible will be done away.
It is easy to see that you are all about personal attacks and tell lies about the other person, to try to get the focus off of what they've shown, that you can't refute.

You also lied about what Paul said. He clearly stated that that which s sown is not that which is raised and your word twisting of a single verse isn't going to change that.

You want to focus on the word "it" and ignore a bunch of entire verses and that tells us all we need to know about you!

Paul said, in v37, that "you do not sow that body which shall be". Note the words "not" and "body", not just the word "it" upon which you ridiculously try to build a doctrine!

1 Corinthians 15:37-38,44-48,50

37) And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.
38) But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
44) It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45) And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46) However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
47) The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48) As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49) And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

You're angry that I won't fall for your tricks. And your anger is obvious, when you attack people and jump right to calling them liars, because they won't kneel before you and your doctrine.

I am not interested reading your rants and if you felt that I got something wrong about what you believe, then you should have just said so. I stated clearly that what I said applied if you believe in a physical body resurrection. Apparently you do, but still want to deny it. Why do Futurists deny their own belief systems, when they see them typed out and yet, keep insisting they're right?

I am not interested in your vulgar attacks and I'm not going to fight with you. Nor will I discuss Scripture with someone who does not combat doctrines with Scripture, but rather, when trapped by Scripture, chooses to try to fight Scripture with Scripture and personally attack and lie about the other person and then claim that's a victory for their doctrine.

No thanks! Bye, bye!
 
H

Hitch

Guest
It is easy to see that you are all about personal attacks and tell lies about the other person, to try to get the focus off of what they've shown, that you can't refute.

You also lied about what Paul said. He clearly stated that that which s sown is not that which is raised and your word twisting of a single verse isn't going to change that.
LOL Reality check, the quote;

1 Corinthians 15:42
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
You want to focus on the word "it" and ignore a bunch of entire verses and that tells us all we need to know about you!

Paul said, in v37, that "you do not sow that body which shall be". Note the words "not" and "body", not just the word "it" upon which you ridiculously try to build a doctrine!

1 Corinthians 15:37-38,44-48,50

37) And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.
38) But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
44) It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45) And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46) However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
47) The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48) As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49) And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

You're angry that I won't fall for your tricks. And your anger is obvious, when you attack people and jump right to calling them liars, because they won't kneel before you and your doctrine.
Actually I merely pointed out some half truths in your posts, :)
I am not interested reading your rants and if you felt that I got something wrong about what you believe, then you should have just said so. I stated clearly that what I said applied if you believe in a physical body resurrection. Apparently you do, but still want to deny it. Why do Futurists deny their own belief systems, when they see them typed out and yet, keep insisting they're right?
LOL speaking of rants :biglol Geez Dave do you really think no one has ever seen a Strawman before ?
I am not interested in your vulgar attacks and I'm not going to fight with you. Nor will I discuss Scripture with someone who does not combat doctrines with Scripture, but rather, when trapped by Scripture, chooses to try to fight Scripture with Scripture and personally attack and lie about the other person and then claim that's a victory for their doctrine.
Yawn ,that certainly explains why I quoted Paul :wave
No thanks! Bye, bye!
Reality check II. I opened up a separate thread to make it as easy as possible for you to prove me wrong. Good luck.
 
H

Hitch

Guest
Interesting how they personalize when its obvious that their arguments are with the 2,000 years of history of the church at large.

I reckon this tactic was adopted and worked for a short time. Something about the mind set keeps them using a failed tactic. It does help though to demonstrate the odd nature of full preterism.
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
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When we see Him again it will be without veil, in His glorious nature . See above Interesting the pains you've taken This one is an out and out fabrication. In the previous paragraph a great deal of twisting and turning was inserted, this one goes a step further and simply announces fabrications as fact, casually altering the doctrine based on the words of Christ Himself . Note the half truth. Despite Dave's fabrication Orthodox believers from the GO to the strictest Southern Baptist do not believe what Dave presents while sharing the expectation of bodily resurrection More of the same At some point a fabrication becomes an out and out lie. I for one, assume Dave knows that those expecting resurrection do not believe in a 'flesh and blood' body as he makes a point to repeat as often as possible. It is disingenuous at best To repeat I believe Dave knows full well no one teaches this. It is a half truth Note that Dave added 'blood' to what Jesus said about His resurrected body, and continued to add this same 'blood' all through his post. Paul clearly indicates that what is raised is that which was sown. In direct contradiction to Dave's twisted version below See what I mean? Another use of a half truth, but in this case its fails completely as Paul is clear that which is sown is raised

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: Given the above your warning rings hollow. You didnt even blink when you added 'blood ' to what Jesus actually said to suit your needs Yet another half truth. It is getting old. Certainly there are angelic beings in heaven,duh. When men are raised and glorified they will be raised and glorified human beings. Today men live the duality of body and spirit. We verily exist in Heaven while we live out out bodily life on earth. Paul is clear enough teaching that after the resurrection the corruptible will be done away.
Wow! Somebody had their FIBER today! :amen

JLB
 
P

Pastor Dave

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LOL Reality check, the quote;

1 Corinthians 15:42
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption
You like to pretend that if you ignore the rest, that means it doesn't exist and that the word "it" can have a doctrine built. The truth is, you intentionally ignore the rest of the passages, because you don't like what they have to say.

As I said in my last post...

You want to focus on the word "it" and ignore a bunch of entire verses and that tells us all we need to know about you!

Paul said, in v37, that "you do not sow that body which shall be". Note the words "not" and "body", not just the word "it" upon which you ridiculously try to build a doctrine!

1 Corinthians 15:37-38,44-48,50

37) And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.
38) But God gives it a body as He pleases and to each seed its own body.
44) It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45) And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46) However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
47) The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48) As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49) And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

No need to give someone a body, if they already have one and which by the way, it says would be a spiritual body and not the natural, human body that went into the ground. As Paul said in v37; "And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be...".

And you outright lied about both me and that verse, when you said that I lied about it, because you claimed that it said the exact opposite; that the body that is planted *is* the body that comes up and you tried to misuse v42 (as you have just done again), when in fact, I correctly stated what it says, which is that the body that is planted is NOT the body that come up! Again, you lied about me and the two verses involved in your false accusation!

You're angry that I won't fall for your tricks. And your anger is obvious, when you attack people and jump right to calling them liars, because they won't kneel before you and your doctrine.

Hint: When your method involves misusing one Scripture passage, to try to disprove multiple Scripture passages, then your method is a falsehood and does not come from God!

For some reason, you think that if you deny something and make false accusations about the person who showed the error in your doctrine, that it means that no one can see what they posted in the previous posts right above yours on the same page and which prove that you're not telling the truth. News flash: They can.

You're a dishonest person who tells lies to avoid having to question his own doctrine. You place your doctrine above Scripture, by filtering Scripture through your doctrine, instead of the other way around as is proper and you ignore (as you have just done) any Scriptures that cause problems for your doctrine.

Like I said, you think that if you ignore what's posted, that it means that no one will be able to see it. Sorry, but people do not go blind, just because you don't want to face something and you're living in a fantasy world!

We're done. You're dishonest and I'm not interested in even reading what you have to say any more. You enjoy your attacks. I'll enjoy the Scriptures.
 
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H

Hitch

Guest
You like to pretend that if you ignore the rest, that means it doesn't exist and that the word "it" can have a doctrine built. The truth is, you intentionally ignore the rest of the passages, because you don't like what they have to say.

As I said in my last post...

You want to focus on the word "it" and ignore a bunch of entire verses and that tells us all we need to know about you!

Paul said, in v37, that "you do not sow that body which shall be". Note the words "not" and "body", not just the word "it" upon which you ridiculously try to build a doctrine!
Yawn , Jesus is the pattern ,
1 Corinthians 15:37-38,44-48,50

37) And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.
38) But God gives it a body as He pleases and to each seed its own body.
44) It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45) And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46) However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
47) The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48) As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49) And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

No need to give someone a body, if they already have one and which by the way, it says would be a spiritual body and not the natural, human body that went into the ground. As Paul said in v37; "And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be...".
See Dave try to understand that there is a great difference between perishable and imperishable, the body 'sown' was perishable the body ,when it raised becomes imperishable. You lose again :)
And you outright lied about both me and that verse, when you said that I lied about it, because you claimed that it said the exact opposite; that the body that is planted *is* the body that comes up and you tried to misuse v42 (as you have just done again), when in fact, I correctly stated what it says, which is that the body that is planted is NOT the body that come up!
see above
Again, you lied about me and the two verses involved in your false accusation!
Here it is again ,
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. Just like Jesus :)
You're angry that I won't fall for your tricks. And your anger is obvious, when you attack people and jump right to calling them liars, because they won't kneel before you and your doctrine.

Hint: When your method involves misusing one Scripture passage, to try to disprove multiple Scripture passages, then your method is a falsehood and does not come from God!
You're a telegraph Dave, Broadcasting every thing you try to get by with , and every one already knows you're opposite the entire church from Pentecost to today
For some reason, you think that if you deny something and make false accusations about the person who showed the error in your doctrine, that it means that no one can see what they posted in the previous posts right above yours on the same page and which prove that you're not telling the truth. News flash: They can.
Dave, perhaps you really do believe you're the only one here who knows the posts are available for any one to read.
You're a dishonest person who tells lies to avoid having to question his own doctrine. You place your doctrine above Scripture, by filtering Scripture through your doctrine, instead of the other way around as is proper and you ignore (as you have just done) any Scriptures that cause problems for your doctrine.
Remember that old pop tune 'Western Union' ....
Like I said, you think that if you ignore what's posted, that it means that no one will be able to see it. Sorry, but people do not go blind, just because you don't want to face something and you're living in a fantasy world!
Why be redundant Dave?
We're done.
Promise?
You're dishonest and I'm not interested in even reading what you have to say any more. You enjoy your attacks. I'll enjoy the Scriptures.
 
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D

DaveRC

Guest
Here is the Greek word used in Matthew 24:14.



3625. oikoumené
Strong's Concordance
oikoumené: the inhabited earth
Original Word: οἰκουμένη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: oikoumené
Phonetic Spelling: (oy-kou-men'-ay)
Short Definition: the inhabited (Roman) world
Definition: (properly: the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation), the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world, for all outside it was regarded as of no account.
HELPS Word-studies
3625 oikouménē (from 3611 /oikéō, "to inhabit, dwell") – the inhabited earth, i.e. all people living on the inhabited globe.

[3625 (oikouménē) is "the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation, the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world (orbis terrarum), for all outside it was regarded as of no account" (Souter).

3625 (oikouménē) literally means "the inhabited (land)." It was "originally used by the Greeks to denote the land inhabited by themselves, in contrast with barbarian countries; afterward, when the Greeks became subject to the Romans, 'the entire Roman world;' still later, for 'the whole inhabited world' " (WS, 140,141).]
 
D

DaveRC

Guest
Please note oikoumené also occurs in Luke 2:1, Acts 11:28, 17:6, 19:27, 24:5, Romans 10:18, and Revelation 16:14!
 

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