This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world...

[Eventide]

Re: Then shall the DELIVERER come and tun ungodliness from JACOB...

Exactly; and this lesson emerges when one begins to see how 'end times' are not just about us, but are demonstrated for us on other cultures throughout the Bible, of which the most prominent biblical example, and the one most concerning the apostles, is that of first century apostate Judaism.

So it makes you wonder why so many simply ignore the truth here and can't see that the end times are concerned with the deliverance of the nation of Israel and not its destruction.

 

[JLB]

OK blood pressure is normal...

The reason is the words you used....

all bright red like it is importiant...

THE proof is that we are the temple He is the chief corner stone we building blooks being fittly joined together...

Good nite one of these days you'll get it right....

What was in red was a quote from their website.

I posted the link below the quote so you could verify the quote actually came from them. [Not me]


The point you were trying to make is:

That we need historical records to prove things in scripture.


Can we get back to that conversation?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Re: Then shall the DELIVERER come and tun ungodliness from JACOB...

So it makes you wonder why so many simply ignore the truth here and can't see that the end times are concerned with the deliverance of the nation of Israel and not its destruction.

What are your thoughts on the contrast of language used in Luke 21 and Matthew 24?

JLB

 

[Eventide]

Re: Then shall the DELIVERER come from Sion and turn ungodliness from JACOB...

What are your thoughts on the contrast of language used in Luke 21 and Matthew 24?

JLB

I think that you have highlighted that wonderfully JLB.. it's a pleasure reading your posts and this thread is interesting imo because it demonstrates the very thing that Paul warns the Christian church not to be ignorant of..

The mystery pertaining to Israel and how that IGNORING it will result in men becoming wise in their own conceits..

Luke 21 is a clear description of the events leading up to the destruction of the temple in the first century, although Matthew is much broader in its context and clearly describes events of the (yet future) end of the age... and its context is clearly salvation, not destruction as so many preach.

But imo, it ALL stems from IGNORING the simple truth concerning Israel.. and their ultimate restoration in the end when they do receive the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah.. in that day.. the Day of the Lord.. the Day of Jesus Christ.. which shall come as travail upon a WOMAN WITH CHILD..

 

[JLB]

Re: Then shall the DELIVERER come from Sion and turn ungodliness from JACOB...

I think that you have highlighted that wonderfully JLB.. it's a pleasure reading your posts and this thread is interesting imo because it demonstrates the very thing that Paul warns the Christian church not to be ignorant of..

The mystery pertaining to Israel and how that IGNORING it will result in men becoming wise in their own conceits..

Luke 21 is a clear description of the events leading up to the destruction of the temple in the first century, although Matthew is much broader in its context and clearly describes events of the (yet future) end of the age... and its context is clearly salvation, not destruction as so many preach.

But imo, it ALL stems from IGNORING the simple truth concerning Israel.. and their ultimate restoration in the end when they do receive the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah.. in that day.. the Day of the Lord.. the Day of Jesus Christ.. which shall come as travail upon a WOMAN WITH CHILD..

How do you see Revelation 12 in that context?

 

[Eventide]

Can a NATION be BORN in a DAY...

How do you see Revelation 12 in that context?

IMO Rev 12 is a perfect connection to Daniel 12, and Matthew 24.. and it's miraculous in describing the woman with child which I believe is the nation of Israel being born again and then protected in the wilderness during the tribulation..

As you say.. the Holy Spirit is brilliant (if that's even a word worthy enough) in revealing these things to the eternal glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[JLB]

As you say.. the Holy Spirit is brilliant (if that's even a word worthy enough) in revealing these things to the eternal glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Brilliant doesn't come close...

However that's all my pathetic human words can muster!

Getting humans beings to understand eternal truths is beyond words.


JLB

 

[Codger]

Could you please use scripture to validate your post.

Thanks, JLB

Stormcrow already did that in my post. What could be clearer?

 

[JLB]

Re: Can a NATION be BORN in a DAY...

IMO Rev 12 is a perfect connection to Daniel 12, and Matthew 24.. and it's miraculous in describing the woman with child which I believe is the nation of Israel being born again and then protected in the wilderness during the tribulation..

To me The Woman's name is Jerusalem.

Isaiah 66 is what I believe Revelation 12 is referring to.

The Manchild is a plural group.

They have the authority of the overcomers. See Revelation 2:26-27

26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations-- 27 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels'-- as I also have received from My Father;

Possibly the 144,000!

As well as the Stone of Daniel 2!


JLB

 

[Eventide]

Re: Can a NATION be BORN in a DAY...

Possibly the 144,000!
JLB

Yes, IMO Rev 7 shows us precisely what Rev 12 is speaking about.. the woman (Israel) being with child (born again)..
and this is exactly what Rev 7 shows us.. 144,000 ISRAELITES from each of the twelve tribes listed, having the SEAL OF GOD IN their foreheads.

IMO it couldn't be more clear..

The end times are concerning the DELIVERANCE of the nation of Israel.. not its destruction..

Who would teach and preach the exact opposite of what the scriptures reveal ?

 

[JLB]

Re: Can a NATION be BORN in a DAY...

Yes, IMO Rev 7 shows us precisely what Rev 12 is speaking about.. the woman (Israel) being with child (born again)..
and this is exactly what Rev 7 shows us.. 144,000 ISRAELITES from each of the twelve tribes listed, having the SEAL OF GOD IN their foreheads.

IMO it couldn't be more clear..

The end times are concerning the DELIVERANCE of the nation of Israel.. not its destruction..

Who would teach and preach the exact opposite of what the scriptures reveal ?

Israel in a man.

The Woman of Revelation 12, IMO is Jerusalem.

Jerusalem from above or The New Jerusalem, one or the other.


JLB

 

[reba]

The Israel of today is not the land of the promise.

 

[ManofChrist101]

And then the end will come.

"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:14 (NASB)

Some say the "end" hasn't come because this gospel hasn't been preached in the whole world. Paul writes otherwise:

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. Romans 1:8 (NASB)

but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; Romans 16:26 (NASB)

the gospel which has come to you, just as in all the world Colossians 1:5-6 (NASB)

the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven Colossians 1:23 (NASB)

I wonder how Paul, called by Christ Himself, could've been so wrong.

Where Jesus used the word "oukumene"(Sp?) Which means the known inhabited world,

Paul used the word "kosmos" meaning the whole planet.


I understand from your posts that youre a partial preterist, I am not quite a futurist but i must ask you this......


How could the Gospel have gone out the whole Kosmos by 70 Ad when my native american ancestors didnt get it untill anout 1300 years later?

 

[Stormcrow]

Where Jesus used the word "oukumene"(Sp?) Which means the known inhabited world,

Paul used the word "kosmos" meaning the whole planet.


I understand from your posts that youre a partial preterist, I am not quite a futurist but i must ask you this......


How could the Gospel have gone out the whole Kosmos by 70 Ad when my native american ancestors didnt get it untill anout 1300 years later?

I think you better check the Greek again...

Greek Word: κόσμος

Transliterated Word: kosmos
Root: a prim. word;

Definition: order, the world:--

, New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, (Anaheim, CA: Foundation Publications, 1998), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "2889".

How was the world ordered in the time of Paul and the other apostles? People talk today of a "new world order". What was the "old world order" of Paul's day?

In other words, how was the world "arranged" in Paul's day?

It was arranged (ordered) by the Roman Empire.

So whether we're talking about oikumene (Greco-Roman world as Jesus and the disciples knew it) or kosmos (the world order of the Roman Empire), Paul and Jesus are talking about the same thing.

But even if we use the word ktisis (creation) found in Colossians 1:23, it's clear Paul is making the point - rather emphatically - that the gospel had gone out throughout the entire known world at the time that Paul had written his letters.

Finally, this is substantiated by the use of the Greek as recorded in Mark's gospel:

And He said to them, "Go into all the world (kosmos) and preach the gospel to all creation (ktisis). Mark 16:15 (NASB)

By the time Paul had written his letters, this commandment was fulfilled.

 

[Stormcrow]

You know, there's something very wrong with taking words like "world" as though they have only one meaning and that meaning can only mean one thing: the oblate spheroid we know as planet earth.

Clearly, that's not how Jesus meant the word to be taken and that's not how Paul understood Christ's words to be fulfilled!

Just as we use the word "world" today to mean everything from someone's personal world ("His world was rocked."), to the geo-political world ("The U.N. is ushering in a 'new world order.'"), to the planet ("Our world is an island in space."), those in the first century would have used the language of their time to express these ideas, too.

To assume that every use of a given word in the Bible can mean only one thing as defined by us is a dangerous and ridiculous way to interpret the Bible.

 

[ManofChrist101]

You know, there's something very wrong with taking words like "world" as though they have only one meaning and that meaning can only mean one thing: the oblate spheroid we know as planet earth.

Clearly, that's not how Jesus meant the word to be taken and that's not how Paul understood Christ's words to be fulfilled!

Just as we use the word "world" today to mean everything from someone's personal world ("His world was rocked."), to the geo-political world ("The U.N. is ushering in a 'new world order.'"), to the planet ("Our world is an island in space."), those in the first century would have used the language of their time to express these ideas, too.

To assume that every use of a given word in the Bible can mean only one thing as defined by us is a dangerous and ridiculous way to interpret the Bible.

I think you misunderstood me.....i mentioned both words for "the world" to indicate that i knew that there were 2 definitions

1) The planet
2) KNown civilization

BUt i was asking how pauls use of Kosmos could have possibly meant anything other than the planet? Why didnt he just use oikumene if he meant "the known land"?

 

[Drew]

Re: Then shall the DELIVERER come and tun ungodliness from JACOB...

So it makes you wonder why so many simply ignore the truth here and can't see that the end times are concerned with the deliverance of the nation of Israel and not its destruction.

I challenge this - I see nothing in the New Testament that promises deliverance for the nation of Israel.

This line alone, from Romans 11, does great damage to the position that there is some iron-clad promise from God in relation to a national deliverance for Israel:

And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, ...

The "they" here is clearly the nation of Israel. Now why would Paul put the "if they do not continue in their unbelief" qualifier in there if He believes that all Israel will be saved.

Now let's be clear: I know full well that, at the end of this very same chapter, Paul says "All Israel shall be saved". For reasons that will have to wait, I suggest that Paul is using the term "Israel" to refer to the Jew + Gentile church.

Lest ye think this is a convenient trick to support my view, there is clear Biblical precedent for Paul using the "Israel" category to refer, not to the nation of Israel, but, yes, to the church.

 

[JLB]

I think you better check the Greek again...

Greek Word: κόσμος

Transliterated Word: kosmos
Root: a prim. word;

Definition: order, the world:--

, New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, (Anaheim, CA: Foundation Publications, 1998), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "2889".

How was the world ordered in the time of Paul and the other apostles? People talk today of a "new world order". What was the "old world order" of Paul's day?

In other words, how was the world "arranged" in Paul's day?

It was arranged (ordered) by the Roman Empire.

So whether we're talking about oikumene (Greco-Roman world as Jesus and the disciples knew it) or kosmos (the world order of the Roman Empire), Paul and Jesus are talking about the same thing.

But even if we use the word ktisis (creation) found in Colossians 1:23, it's clear Paul is making the point - rather emphatically - that the gospel had gone out throughout the entire known world at the time that Paul had written his letters.

Finally, this is substantiated by the use of the Greek as recorded in Mark's gospel:

And He said to them, "Go into all the world (kosmos) and preach the gospel to all creation (ktisis). Mark 16:15 (NASB)

By the time Paul had written his letters, this commandment was fulfilled.

The problem with that "theory" is nowhere in Paul's letters do we find any evidence of The Gospel of The Kingdom being preached in all the world as a witness.

Colossians 1:5-6 NRSV
[FONT=&quot]5[/FONT][FONT=&quot] because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. You have heard of this hope before in the word of the truth, the gospel [/FONT][FONT=&quot]6[/FONT][FONT=&quot] that has come to you. Just as it is bearing fruit and growing in the whole world, so it has been bearing fruit among yourselves from the day you heard it and truly comprehended the grace of God.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Because the gospel message is growing and bearing fruit wherever it is preached, does not mean that it has in fact reached the whole entire world as well as every ethnic group.

This passage clearly states that the gospel message is in the process of reaching the world but clearly has not “reached†the whole world which we know still today has not reached all the world and all the ethnic groups.

[/FONT]
True Paul stated that the gospel was in the process of reaching the whole world, that does not mean the commandment had been completed.

The evidence is clear, the end has not come.


The greatest harvest is yet to come, when the most people who have ever lived on the earth at any time is at hand!

Even with the great crowds that Reinhard Bonke and others are bringing to the Lord by the millions, still the Gospel has not reached the whole world!

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

JLB

 

[Stormcrow]

I think you misunderstood me.....i mentioned both words for "the world" to indicate that i knew that there were 2 definitions

1) The planet
2) KNown civilization

BUt i was asking how pauls use of Kosmos could have possibly meant anything other than the planet? Why didnt he just use oikumene if he meant "the known land"?

Because the Greek word "kosmos" also has two definitions as I cited above: "order" and "world." It doesn't necessarily mean "planet." Usage determines meaning, and when we look at Christ's words in Mark 16, wherein He uses both "kosmos" (world) and "ktisis" (creation), then compare Christ's words to Paul's, we see both prophecy and fulfillment within the same Testament.

By the way, that post was not directed to you specifically. I was simply making a broader point for discussion's sake.

 

[JLB]

Because the Greek word "kosmos" also has two definitions as I cited above: "order" and "world." It doesn't necessarily mean "planet." Usage determines meaning, and when we look at Christ's words in Mark 16, wherein He uses both "kosmos" (world) and "ktisis" (creation), then compare Christ's words to Paul's, we see both prophecy and fulfillment within the same Testament.

By the way, that post was not directed to you specifically. I was simply making a broader point for discussion's sake.

Let's see if your explanation of the word "kosmos" is in alignment with sound theological understanding as well as the intent of The Lord.


And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

World = Strong's Number: 2889 - Kosmos

[FONT=&quot]Definition[/FONT]

1. [FONT=&quot]an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government[/FONT]
2. [FONT=&quot]ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:[/FONT]

·[FONT=&quot] the world, the universe[/FONT]
·[FONT=&quot] the circle of the earth, the earth[/FONT]
·[FONT=&quot] the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family[/FONT]
·[FONT=&quot] the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ[/FONT]
·[FONT=&quot] world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly [/FONT]

1. [FONT=&quot]the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ[/FONT]

1. [FONT=&quot]the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews(Rom. 11:12 etc) [/FONT]
2. [FONT=&quot]of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19[/FONT]

Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others; this is keyed to the large Kittel and the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament." These files are public domain.


Well your definition totally flies in the face of "sound" theological study as well as the "intent" of The Lord Jesus Christ.

By your definition, which is clear that your are trying to shore up the idea that "The End" occurred in 70AD, you would have us believe that the word "kosmos" is limited to the Jewish order or Jewish world and that is what Jesus "meant" when He said go into all the world and furthermore that mandate was all completely accomplished by 70AD.

All of this conclusion is based on your definition of world [kosmos] being the Jewish world and not necessarily the whole Gentile world.

As you can see from the definition above taken from the Lexicon of the new testament it is distinctly the opposite of "your" definition.


Jesus intent was that the whole world, including Gentiles would be saved. His mandate was not to the Jewish world only.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

All of planet earth and all ethnic groups are included in this mandate from The Lord Jesus Christ!

Therefore the end has not come!

JLB