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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world...
- Thread starter Stormcrow
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Eventide
Member
The God of Abraham, Isaac, and JACOB...
The ancient texts of the OT have told us the same story (thematically) over and over throughout its seemingly limitless pages which testify of Him.. for in the volume of the book it is written of HIM..
Perhaps one of the most popular is the story of Joseph...
The son of Jacob's (Israel) old age.. loved by his father and yet hated by his own brethren.. Joseph was given a coat of many colors.. and yet his brethren hated him all the more for it.. they sold him to the Gentiles for 20 pieces of silver.. dipped his coat in blood and deceived Jacob (Israel) into believing that he was dead..
Of course he wasn't dead though.. he went from the pit to the prison to the throne in a foreign land, all unknown to his brethren.. he was given a Gentile bride.. he REVEALED the future famine to come... and when it did eventually come.. who came looking for sustenance during the famine..?
His brethren... then what happens..? His brethren are led to repentance and in the end Joseph reveals himself to them and they mourn for HIM... and THEN.. JACOB learns late in his life that the son of his old age is ALIVE and ruler over all..
Now please tell me how this equates to the nonsense of the destruction of Israel being the time of the end when the story CLEARLY shows us that JACOB (Israel) is SAVED in the end..?
This is just ONE story.. the OT and NT in its entirety affirms this over and over again..
It's really time for the Christian church to STOP IGNORING the mystery pertaining to Israel so that we can all (as one body) become less wise in our own conceits..
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
The ancient texts of the OT have told us the same story (thematically) over and over throughout its seemingly limitless pages which testify of Him.. for in the volume of the book it is written of HIM..
Perhaps one of the most popular is the story of Joseph...
The son of Jacob's (Israel) old age.. loved by his father and yet hated by his own brethren.. Joseph was given a coat of many colors.. and yet his brethren hated him all the more for it.. they sold him to the Gentiles for 20 pieces of silver.. dipped his coat in blood and deceived Jacob (Israel) into believing that he was dead..
Of course he wasn't dead though.. he went from the pit to the prison to the throne in a foreign land, all unknown to his brethren.. he was given a Gentile bride.. he REVEALED the future famine to come... and when it did eventually come.. who came looking for sustenance during the famine..?
His brethren... then what happens..? His brethren are led to repentance and in the end Joseph reveals himself to them and they mourn for HIM... and THEN.. JACOB learns late in his life that the son of his old age is ALIVE and ruler over all..
Now please tell me how this equates to the nonsense of the destruction of Israel being the time of the end when the story CLEARLY shows us that JACOB (Israel) is SAVED in the end..?
This is just ONE story.. the OT and NT in its entirety affirms this over and over again..
It's really time for the Christian church to STOP IGNORING the mystery pertaining to Israel so that we can all (as one body) become less wise in our own conceits..
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
F
felix
Guest
Re: Can a NATION be BORN in a DAY...
The woman in Rev 12 is actually referring to the Jews who can be either referred as Israel or Jerusalem.
(Rev 12:1-2) Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth... (Rev 12:5) She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
The Child is undoubtedly Jesus Christ.
(Isa 9:6) For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
To whom does Jesus Christ is given as a Son?
Ans: (Matt 15:24) But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Ezekiel 16 is a classic example of how God Himself speaks about Israel and referring the nation Israel as Jerusalem. There are many other references where people of Israel or the Jews were simply referred as Jerusalem.
The woman in Rev 12 is actually referring to the Jews who can be either referred as Israel or Jerusalem.
(Rev 12:1-2) Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth... (Rev 12:5) She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
The Child is undoubtedly Jesus Christ.
(Isa 9:6) For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
To whom does Jesus Christ is given as a Son?
Ans: (Matt 15:24) But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Ezekiel 16 is a classic example of how God Himself speaks about Israel and referring the nation Israel as Jerusalem. There are many other references where people of Israel or the Jews were simply referred as Jerusalem.
Eventide
Member
Things which shall be HERE... AFTER...
IMO there's a clear distinction between Jerusalem (the city of the great King), and the twelve tribes known collectively as Israel.. originating from Jacob's twelve sons.. although it's fine imo if some would like to see the woman as Jerusalem.. I think that the important thing is that it relates to ISRAEL... and Rev 7 affirms this for us in showing us 144,000 ISRAELITES having the seal of God in their foreheads.
Absolutely.. although imo the fascinating thing about Rev 12 is that it pertains to the things which shall be here after... IOW, it's future within the context of the book of Revelation..
I had often read Rev 12 in a 'past' context.. and after many years I'm convinced that it is a yet future context, as most of the Revelation (or unveiling), of Jesus Christ is.. specifically chapters 4-22.
IMO there's a clear distinction between Jerusalem (the city of the great King), and the twelve tribes known collectively as Israel.. originating from Jacob's twelve sons.. although it's fine imo if some would like to see the woman as Jerusalem.. I think that the important thing is that it relates to ISRAEL... and Rev 7 affirms this for us in showing us 144,000 ISRAELITES having the seal of God in their foreheads.
Absolutely.. although imo the fascinating thing about Rev 12 is that it pertains to the things which shall be here after... IOW, it's future within the context of the book of Revelation..
I had often read Rev 12 in a 'past' context.. and after many years I'm convinced that it is a yet future context, as most of the Revelation (or unveiling), of Jesus Christ is.. specifically chapters 4-22.
F
felix
Guest
Re: Things which shall be HERE... AFTER...
I am not sure why you are relating Rev 7 and Rev 12. Both are separate events.
The next event after sealing includes all nations and tribes as well who will come out of tribulation.
(Rev 7:9) After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, .. (Rev 7:13-14) Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 12 is a past event. Since Christ is the Child and He is already born 2000 yrs back, He is not going to be born again on this world but will come in clouds to judge the world. Hence, undoubtedly Rev 12 is a past event.
I am not sure why you are relating Rev 7 and Rev 12. Both are separate events.
The next event after sealing includes all nations and tribes as well who will come out of tribulation.
(Rev 7:9) After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, .. (Rev 7:13-14) Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 12 is a past event. Since Christ is the Child and He is already born 2000 yrs back, He is not going to be born again on this world but will come in clouds to judge the world. Hence, undoubtedly Rev 12 is a past event.
Eventide
Member
Re: Things which shall be HERE... AFTER...
Because there is a clear distinction between the two groups.. a specific number of ISRAELITES sealed from each of the TWELVE TRIBES, as compared to gentiles from all nations and tongues which could NOT be numbered.
That's a vital distinction and imo it does relate precisely to Rev 12 and the woman... which connects perfectly with Daniel 12.. where Michael helps Daniel's people (Israelites), in the time of the END.. right here ON EARTH.. as they are protected in the wilderness during the tribulation.
That's why it's simply mind boggling to see this as the Nation of Israel being BORN AGAIN in the future... ie, having CHRIST in them.. and imo this is precisely what Rev 12 is all about..
It will all happen in that Day.. the Day of the LORD, the Day of Jesus Christ.. which shall come as travail upon a woman with child...
Can you see that DAY approaching..?
Because there is a clear distinction between the two groups.. a specific number of ISRAELITES sealed from each of the TWELVE TRIBES, as compared to gentiles from all nations and tongues which could NOT be numbered.
That's a vital distinction and imo it does relate precisely to Rev 12 and the woman... which connects perfectly with Daniel 12.. where Michael helps Daniel's people (Israelites), in the time of the END.. right here ON EARTH.. as they are protected in the wilderness during the tribulation.
That's why it's simply mind boggling to see this as the Nation of Israel being BORN AGAIN in the future... ie, having CHRIST in them.. and imo this is precisely what Rev 12 is all about..
It will all happen in that Day.. the Day of the LORD, the Day of Jesus Christ.. which shall come as travail upon a woman with child...
Can you see that DAY approaching..?
F
felix
Guest
Re: Things which shall be HERE... AFTER...
I still don't quote get the connection. "a garland of twelve stars" on her head as in Rev 12:1 is perfect to say the woman is referring to children of Israel or Jews.
Daniel 12 is referring the great tribulation while Rev 12 is not.
Nation of Israel born in this century does not have Christ in them. What makes you say that?
Be warned that Jerusalem will actually become a spiritual Sodom and Egypt in future.
(Rev 11:7-8) When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies [will lie] in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
I still don't quote get the connection. "a garland of twelve stars" on her head as in Rev 12:1 is perfect to say the woman is referring to children of Israel or Jews.
Daniel 12 is referring the great tribulation while Rev 12 is not.
Nation of Israel born in this century does not have Christ in them. What makes you say that?
Be warned that Jerusalem will actually become a spiritual Sodom and Egypt in future.
(Rev 11:7-8) When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies [will lie] in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Why would this refer to Jesus Christ, when this vision pertains to the future and not the past.
Here are the reasons why:
The time-frame of the events of Revelation 12 are in the future as clearly noted by the language used -
- Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. This is a clear reference to the 3 1/2 years of Daniels 70th week.
- John was told in chapter 4 that he was to be shown things which must take place after this. Meaning the things he was shown were future to the time of the vision, which does not pertain to the birth of Jesus Christ which happened some 90 years prior.
- 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time." Clearly Satan has not yet been "cast to the earth", for when he is... then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Future event.
The Manchild is a reference to overcomers who, like Jesus Christ have overcome and been granted authority to rule all nations with a rod of iron.
Revelation 2:26-27 states -
26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations-- 27 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels'-- as I also have received from My Father;
The Manchild is a plural group of one's that God has reserved for just a time as this like the two witness's. Very likely the Manchild is a reference to 144,000.
These are just some of the reasons I don't believe the Manchild refers to Jesus Himself, but rather those that have been "birthed in His image", if you will.
Furthermore, I liken them to the "Stone" of Daniel 2.
JLB
Eventide
Member
Re: Things which shall be HERE... AFTER...
Felix, I agree.. Rev 12 is speaking of Israelites.. Jews..
Then what is it referring to ?
Rev 12 tells us that the woman (who we agree are Israelites), flees to the wilderness and is protected from the dragon and that Michael wars with the dragon (again, perfect connection with Daniel 12).. for 1260 days...
Are you suggesting that this happened 2000 years ago ?
I didn't say they did.. because that DAY has not yet come.. the Day of the LORD, the DAY of Jesus Christ.. which shall come as travail upon a woman with child..
IMO when the Lord does come.. He will sit upon the throne of His glory as Matthew tells us plainly.. and we also know that His twelve apostles (resurrected of course) will also sit upon twelve thrones, and they will judge the twelve tribes of Israel in that Day..
And I'm sure it will be in Jerusalem, the city of the great King.
It is amazing to me that so many can miss the simple scriptural fact that Israel shall be saved in the end.. not destroyed.. we do see the god of this world trying to destroy the woman in the end although she is protected by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.. yes Jacob.. the one who wrestled with God all night and prevailed.. and in the morning of that Day the Sun rose upon Him..
As Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles teaches us.. The night is far spent, the Day is at hand..
Felix, I agree.. Rev 12 is speaking of Israelites.. Jews..
Then what is it referring to ?
Rev 12 tells us that the woman (who we agree are Israelites), flees to the wilderness and is protected from the dragon and that Michael wars with the dragon (again, perfect connection with Daniel 12).. for 1260 days...
Are you suggesting that this happened 2000 years ago ?
I didn't say they did.. because that DAY has not yet come.. the Day of the LORD, the DAY of Jesus Christ.. which shall come as travail upon a woman with child..
IMO when the Lord does come.. He will sit upon the throne of His glory as Matthew tells us plainly.. and we also know that His twelve apostles (resurrected of course) will also sit upon twelve thrones, and they will judge the twelve tribes of Israel in that Day..
And I'm sure it will be in Jerusalem, the city of the great King.
It is amazing to me that so many can miss the simple scriptural fact that Israel shall be saved in the end.. not destroyed.. we do see the god of this world trying to destroy the woman in the end although she is protected by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.. yes Jacob.. the one who wrestled with God all night and prevailed.. and in the morning of that Day the Sun rose upon Him..
As Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles teaches us.. The night is far spent, the Day is at hand..
F
felix
Guest
The vision is a past for us not for the readers of 1st century when the book was written. The first few verses lays the foundation of the things that had already happen to show things that will happen in continuation into future (where many are past for us now).
(Rev 12:5) She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
The Child is not just a child who is/was to rule all nations with a rod of iron but has His own throne.
The Child cannot be nation Israel because the blessing of "ruling with rod of iron" is actually given to church in Thyatira as in Rev 2:27 located in ancient Greece outside of Israel with Gentile population. The church in Thyatira are gentile Christians and not Jews.
Neither does church in Thyatira or Christians have their own throne. However, the blessing of sitting on Christ's throne is for church of the Laodiceans. Laodicea again is not in Israel and neither referring to any Jews but to gentile Christians.
Hence, IMO, the Child cannot be the nation of Israel but Jesus Christ Himself.
You make a good point with the reference to "His Throne", however that good point does not overrule the clear descriptive language at the beginning of Revelation 12.
1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.
The three main entities of Revelation 12 are:
- a woman clothed with the sun...
- Her child
- Red dragon having seven heads and ten horns.
These entities, we are told right off are signs.
A sign is used to represent a corporate expression of something.
The five interlocking rings are a "sign" to represent the plural or corporate expression of the Olympics.
The Red dragon having seven heads and ten horns represents Satan's dominion expressed through World Government! See Daniel 2. The ten horns are ten kings...
So we see this sign represents something else, something corporate.
Now, I have to ask you, In your opinion does the woman represent Mary the mother of Jesus? Or is the woman a sign that represents a corporate expression of something.
The phrase, with the moon under her feet, tells me she has dominion over whatever the moon represents. [The light that governs the night]
This is a good discussion.
I see in part, but we have the mind of Christ!
Thanks JLB
J
Jack Straw
Guest
Yes, it is Christ, but WHO is Christ? Christ is a "many-membered body" with Christ Jesus being "the Head." And "Heaven" is not some far-away place "out there" somewhere. Heaven represents a state of being, a state of thinking (consciousness). In Revelation, THE SEA represents the lowest form of "carnal" thinking. THE SEA comprises the masses of restless, surging, sinning, clamoring people who live only and completely after the unrestrained dictates of the flesh. HEAVEN comprises those seated in the ascended Christ who walk only and completely after the Spirit. THE EARTH represents a moral class, the majority of religious people, with many upright citizens of the community and Church-going Christian people; but these, while not wicked, are not spiritual either. In most aspects of their lives, those that dwell upon THE EARTH "mind earthly things." The book of Revelation is a "spiritual book." The reason there are so many ridiculous theories about THE BEASTS and the end times in general is because people try to take what is spiritual and mold it into EARTHLY thinking.
Revelation 13:1: "Then I stood on the sand of THE SEA. And I saw a beast rising up out of THE SEA, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name."
The BEAST from THE SEA comprises the totality of secular godless governments that exist in the world (i.e. - 7 Heads = 7 Continents = the whole world = HUMANITY). This Beast has been rising from THE SEA of humanity for millennia.
Isaiah 57:20: "The wicked are like THE TROUBLED SEA, which cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, says my God, to the wicked."
Jude 13: "These are RAGING WAVES OF THE SEA, foaming out their own shame."
Luke 21:25: "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, THE SEA and the waves roaring."
Revelation 13:1; 12:12; 16:3: "I saw a beast rise up out of the SEA;" "Woe to the inhabiters of the SEA, for the devil is come down unto you;" "And the second angel poured out his vial upon the SEA; and it became as the blood of a dead man."
Revelation 17:15: "Then the angel said to me, 'The waters (SEA) you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.'"
THE BEAST from THE EARTH is from "a higher realm" of thinking, though still not spiritual (HEAVEN).
Revelation 13:11: "And I saw another beast ascending up from THE EARTH, and it had TWO HORNS, like a LAMB; and it spake as a DRAGON."
As the above verse states, this beast is characterized as a beast that has "two horns" like a LAMB ['looks like' the Lamb (of God), Christ - i.e. - looks Christian], BUT it spake like A DRAGON [but it 'spake' and sounds like the DRAGON; that old serpent, called the devil, and Satan (Revelation 13:11, 12:9).
"Horns" in Bible prophecy denote dominion, power, authority, or kingship, so this unholy power has a "two-fold" dominion. This beast with the "two horns like a lamb" denotes a TWO-FOLD (1. Catholic and 2. Protestant) religious power which professes to be the true representative of the Lamb of God in the world. It pretends to be harmless, meek, mild, inoffensive, nonagressive "like" a lamb; having many professions of cleanliness, purity, holiness, sanctity, and godliness, but notwithstanding all of these, "it spake as a dragon!" (i.e. - speaking blasphemies such as our Loving God torturing unbelievers in Hell for eternity, etc.)
So it is Christ (His many-membered body with Christ Jesus being the Head) Who is caught up to HEAVEN (a heavenly (spiritually)-minded body). They are not "physically" going anywhere, or physically being "snatched up" to some far-away Heaven "out there" somewhere. It is the Body Of Christ having "THE HEAVENLY (spiritual) MIND OF CHRIST." The reason the so-called Rapture has been turned into a nonsensical fantasy is because it has been seen through the "carnal eyes" of EARTHLY thinking religious men (THE EARTH), rather than through spiritual eyes of the Mind of Christ (HEAVEN). The secular, godless realm of humanity (THE SEA) sees any and all of this talk as being foolishness
God bless and peace.
eace
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felix
Guest
I wrote a blog - Did satan threw third of angels from Heaven? which contains several investigation on this topic of Rev 12 long back.
I had mentioned the scripture references on my blog. Rev 12 begins from past to explain the future prophecy.
- The great dragon is the Devil or Satan.
- A false prophet is the dragon’s tail.
- Earth is God’s footstool. But God’s footstool is also referring to His Temple.
- Stars in God’s right hand are angels. Stars generally in heaven are the brothers of Joseph or the tribes of Israel. It is to note that Jacob had a sister who was not included as a star in Joseph’s dream!
- Sun is the righteousness or God Himself who is the Sun of righteousness
- Jerusalem is the moon
- Crown represents rule.
- Stars represent the twelve tribes or people of Israel
- 1 crown and 12 stars on it presents 1 king with 12 tribes.
- The Child is our Lord, Jesus Christ!
- 7 heads with 7 crowns are 7 kingdoms with 7 kings
- Horns represent ruling authorities or kings without a kingdom. The 10 horns are 10 ruling authorities or kings without a kingdom.
- The only event which happened between the formation of Roman Empire and the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ which drew a lot of Jews is the construction of Herod’s Temple or the expansion of Second Temple in 19 BC.
- Is Herod the dragon’s tail? – practicing the false sacrificial cult?
- Herod made a third of the people of Israel to work for building a temple for his own glory… If we rephrase Rev 12:4a, it clearly explains the building of Herod’s Temple which was never God’s plan!
I had mentioned the scripture references on my blog. Rev 12 begins from past to explain the future prophecy.
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These verses are very clear as to how Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven and cast the earth and his angels cast out with him.
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:7-9
F
felix
Guest
The verses that I mentioned focused on Rev 12:3-5 and mostly explains the past events which lays the foundation for the rest of the events in Rev 12.
Rev 12:4 which says about the Dragon's tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth is in no way the same event of Satan and his angels cast down to earth in verses 7-9.
From Rev 12:7-14 explains a parallel event which happened in heaven as verse 6 & 14 are essentially the same event.
Prophecy:
(Rev 12:7-9) And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in
heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Fulfillment:
(Luke 10:18) And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Prophecy:
(Rev 12:10) Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
Fulfillment:
Salvation : 2Cor 6:2, Kingdom of God : Luke 17:20-21, Power of Christ : 2Cor 12:9, Satan Cast down: Luke 10:18
The above verses explain the prophecy of Salvation, Kingdom of God and the power of Christ has come and according to Luke 10:18, Satan is also cast down.
F
felix
Guest
JLB,
I am not too pushy on the point you disagreed as I am unclear on the later events of Rev 12 (since events important for God may not be recorded in history as it is for a specific Bible believing audience). However, I would disagree on the identity of the Child in the prophecy of Rev 12. Based on this core identity issue and the timeline surrounding the birth of this child, my other interpretations are derived. Hence, if you could give me a convincing evidence in Rev 12 that the Child is not Christ, then I am happy to agree on it. I am also not sure how the language used seems to be a future event for you.
I am not too pushy on the point you disagreed as I am unclear on the later events of Rev 12 (since events important for God may not be recorded in history as it is for a specific Bible believing audience). However, I would disagree on the identity of the Child in the prophecy of Rev 12. Based on this core identity issue and the timeline surrounding the birth of this child, my other interpretations are derived. Hence, if you could give me a convincing evidence in Rev 12 that the Child is not Christ, then I am happy to agree on it. I am also not sure how the language used seems to be a future event for you.
Let's go back to the discussion of the three main entities that are signs.
At this point, we don't have to determine who the signs represent only that they represent either a singular person or a group of people.
If the sign represents a singular "person" or a corporate "group".
The three main entities of Revelation 12 are:
- a woman clothed with the sun...
- Her child
- Red dragon having seven heads and ten horns.
These entities, we are told right off are signs.
A sign is used to represent something.
The five interlocking rings are a "sign" to represent the corporate expression of the Olympics.
The Red dragon having seven heads and ten horns represents Satan's dominion expressed through World Government!
The ten horns are ten kings...
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.
24 The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings. Daniel 7:7,24
1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.
3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 12The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. Revelation 17:3,12
We see this pattern throughout Apocalyptic scripture in Daniel and Revelation.
All the individual "beasts" which represented World Governing Kingdoms are now "rolled" into one final beast with 10 horns.
The message of The Spirit of God is clear.
There will be a "united world governing kingdom" [United Nations Entity] in the last days that will have 10 kings with authority for "one hour" with the beast.
The Picture this "sign" paints is: The beast represents Satan's Dominion expressed through World Government.
So, to me The Dragon with seven heads and ten horns is a sign.
A singular "beast" that represents the Corporate World Government of Satan.
Do you agree, with at least the last statement?
JLB
C
cupid dave
Guest
And then the end will come.
"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:14 (NASB)
Some say the "end" hasn't come because this gospel hasn't been preached in the whole world. Paul writes otherwise:
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. Romans 1:8 (NASB)
but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; Romans 16:26 (NASB)
the gospel which has come to you, just as in all the world Colossians 1:5-6 (NASB)
the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven Colossians 1:23 (NASB)
I wonder how Paul, called by Christ Himself, could've been so wrong.
Interesting...
But I think Paul meant the whoe of the Roman Empire when he considered the idea of the World.
It is confirmed that Jesus did come back to reign over the 1000 year kingdom starting with the appearance of the Holy Comforter, in 54AD, and lasting as one monoilithic christiaity until the Great Schism of Greek Orthodoxy in 1054AD.
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones (of Universal Christian authority) and they, (the 144,000 monks of Catholic monasticism: [Rev14:4]), sat upon them, (Christianity mandated as the ONLY legal religion in the Empire, in 380AD), and (theocratic) judgment was given unto them (in the days of Catholic Monasticism): and I saw the souls, (the spirit-like psyches or thinking) of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the (one) word of God, (Truth), and which had not worshipped (by participation in the paganistic practices and sexual excesses fueling) the beast (that was Roman Culture, including the economic system which had been based upon selfish self-interest), neither his image (on his coinage), neither had received his mark (of ledgered accounts recorded) upon their foreheads, or in (wages in) their hands (those monks living in moneyless monastic environments);
and they, (the saints/apostles), lived (as angels in the minds of the Christians who have followed since the appearance of the Gospels in 54AD, i.e., those beheaded saints, in the memories of the congregations who worshipped in churches built upon the bones of their remains)...
.... and (they) reigned (in Monasticism) with Christ a thousand years, (from 54 AD upon the appearance of the Holy Comforter, until 1054 AD with the first Schism of Greek Orthodoxy).
C
cupid dave
Guest
1) Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
2) Rev. 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman, (Judaism), clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars (of the Jewish Tribes now that Benjamin had been born since the days of Joseph's dream):
Rev. 12:2 And she, (Judaism), being with child, (Christianity), cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.