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for_his_glory

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#81
Respectfully, I understand your position as well as this teaching as I once believed and taught as you do now.
It was the passage about the wheels, eyes etc that caused me to stumble across a reference to the psalms, which linked back to Sinai and the smoking mountain... and the biblical manner in which it was presented took the mystery out, and made since. It was there I learned Ezekiel was a priest and ministered in the Temple prior to exile. His language was common among the priests.
The same occurred to me when I stumbled across a picture that painted the tabernacle, and then the Temple as Eden... a place where God dwelt on earth in harmony with humanity.
Before you disagree, I would only ask that you have an open mind and study this view for yourself. It won't hurt you...
I agree the actual Temple can be related to the garden of Eden for that is where God walked with Adam before his fall. It's the same with Abraham. Moses, Jacob, Isaiah, Ezekiel and Mt Sinai as Gods Temple whether an actual building, a mountain or a garden is where the presence of Gods Shekinah glory is before us as He speaks to us.
 

for_his_glory

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#82
Respectfully, I understand your position as well as this teaching as I once believed and taught as you do now.
It was the passage about the wheels, eyes etc that caused me to stumble across a reference to the psalms, which linked back to Sinai and the smoking mountain... and the biblical manner in which it was presented took the mystery out, and made since. It was there I learned Ezekiel was a priest and ministered in the Temple prior to exile. His language was common among the priests.
The same occurred to me when I stumbled across a picture that painted the tabernacle, and then the Temple as Eden... a place where God dwelt on earth in harmony with humanity.
Before you disagree, I would only ask that you have an open mind and study this view for yourself. It won't hurt you...
I agree the actual Temple can be related to the garden of Eden for that is where God walked with Adam before his fall. It's the same with Abraham. Moses, Jacob, Isaiah, Ezekiel and Mt Sinai as Gods Temple whether an actual building, a mountain or a garden is where the presence of Gods Shekinah glory is before us as He speaks to us.
 
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#84
StoveBolts, jasonc and Free I will address all three of you at once as I never ask anyone to agree with me and I want to keep this civil between us. This is how I believe by what I read word for word and has nothing to do with any man teaching me.

Isaiah and Ezekiel were given prophecy to speak over the kings of Babylon and Tyre. Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are both dual references about Satan as he works through the king of Babylon and the king of Tyre being that Satan is a created angel/spirit and the prince of the power of the air, Ephesians 2:2, and walks to and fro in the earth, Job 1:7.

For the reason of their pride and greed, just like Satan, these two kings and their kingdom is destroyed by God just as Satan will be in Rev 20:10. The remnant in Rev 19:21 are the same as the kings of Babylon, Tyre and every king that Satan has and is working through as they have always been kings of a political, economic and false religious system that will be destroyed.

The key words that reference Satan in these two books are Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12 and Eden and anointed cherub Ezekiel 28: 13, 14.
Satan is buried in isiah 14 ,how is that possible?
 

for_his_glory

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#86
Satan is buried in isiah 14 ,how is that possible?
I never said Satan was buried in Isaiah 14:11. I am making reference to Satan as the name Lucifer is in vs. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! The king did not fall from heaven and cast down to the ground. It's always been Satan who works through others to try and destroy Gods children.
 
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#87
I never said Satan was buried in Isaiah 14:11. I am making reference to Satan as the name Lucifer is in vs. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! The king did not fall from heaven and cast down to the ground. It's always been Satan who works through others to try and destroy Gods children.
Lucifer isn't satan nor per the older fathers was he considered lucifer a name .it wasn't until 400 years after the cross that it was.
 

for_his_glory

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#88
Lucifer isn't satan nor per the older fathers was he considered lucifer a name .it wasn't until 400 years after the cross that it was.
Where does it say the older fathers never considered Lucifer a name for the adversary? Then I will have to ask you who Lucifer is in Isaiah 14:12. It doesn't matter what name he is known by as there are many or even if God gave him a name, he is still the adversary that comes against God's children and tempted Jesus in Matthew Chapter 4. Jesus is known by many names, none the less He is the Son of God.
 
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#89
Where does it say the older fathers never considered Lucifer a name for the adversary? Then I will have to ask you who Lucifer is in Isaiah 14:12. It doesn't matter what name he is known by as there are many or even if God gave him a name, he is still the adversary that comes against God's children and tempted Jesus in Matthew Chapter 4. Jesus is known by many names, none the less He is the Son of God.
Statements,Uhm the same exact wording about babylon kimgs.you means you

Lucifer is Only uses in Latin and not in the Hebrew .

Jews have no other name for satan like that.

Read my statements again ,i never said satan wasn't a real being nor an enemy of God only that these two chapters can't be used to support that.

Context gives you why .

Is 14 has a chaptee of the king being looked at in the pit and the nation's saying this is the man who weakened the nations?
 
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#90
Statements,Uhm the same exact wording about babylon kimgs.you means you

Lucifer is Only uses in Latin and not in the Hebrew .

Jews have no other name for satan like that.

Read my statements again ,i never said satan wasn't a real being nor an enemy of God only that these two chapters can't be used to support that.

Context gives you why .

Is 14 has a chaptee of the king being looked at in the pit and the nation's saying this is the man who weakened the nations?
You say Lucifer is not used in Hebrew, only in Latin.
Then what word replaces it in Hebrew?
 

for_his_glory

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#93
Statements,Uhm the same exact wording about babylon kimgs.you means you

Lucifer is Only uses in Latin and not in the Hebrew .

Jews have no other name for satan like that.

Read my statements again ,i never said satan wasn't a real being nor an enemy of God only that these two chapters can't be used to support that.

Context gives you why .

Is 14 has a chaptee of the king being looked at in the pit and the nation's saying this is the man who weakened the nations?
I know we will not agree and that's fine as I have no problem with that. We have showed both sides of the coin of what we believe and should probably let it rest there. :)
 
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#94
I know we will not agree and that's fine as I have no problem with that. We have showed both sides of the coin of what we believe and should probably let it rest there. :)
fair enough. I prefer context to be proper. it doesn't mean I get it right ,
 
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#97
They are using the Latin, and in the Latin it is not capitalized Morning Star
In fact, Daniel B. Wallace states a more appropriate translation would be day star.
that means we agree. the context of the chapter couldn't be the Morning Star as that means Jesus would have to fall from Heaven and be judged.
 

StoveBolts

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#98
I never said Satan was buried in Isaiah 14:11. I am making reference to Satan as the name Lucifer is in vs. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! The king did not fall from heaven and cast down to the ground. It's always been Satan who works through others to try and destroy Gods children.
Here is an alternate view....
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15945/jewish/Chapter-14.htm#showrashi=true
 

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#99
StoveBolts, jasonc and Free I will address all three of you at once as I never ask anyone to agree with me and I want to keep this civil between us. This is how I believe by what I read word for word and has nothing to do with any man teaching me.

Isaiah and Ezekiel were given prophecy to speak over the kings of Babylon and Tyre. Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are both dual references about Satan as he works through the king of Babylon and the king of Tyre being that Satan is a created angel/spirit and the prince of the power of the air, Ephesians 2:2, and walks to and fro in the earth, Job 1:7.

For the reason of their pride and greed, just like Satan, these two kings and their kingdom is destroyed by God just as Satan will be in Rev 20:10. The remnant in Rev 19:21 are the same as the kings of Babylon, Tyre and every king that Satan has and is working through as they have always been kings of a political, economic and false religious system that will be destroyed.
There simply is nothing within the contexts of either Isa. 14 or Eze. 28 to even remotely suggest that there are dual meanings, never mind a second meaning that refers to Satan. One has to read that into the texts.

The key words that reference Satan in these two books are Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12 and Eden and anointed cherub Ezekiel 28: 13, 14.
As I stated previously and has been argued by others, there is no being in the Bible with the name "Lucifer." Even if there was, one would still have to read into that name that it is speaking of Satan.
 

for_his_glory

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Thank you for the site as I forgot I had studied this a long time ago and found this in my notes.

Concerning the word Lucifer the King James took the Latin Vulgate word Lucifer which in Latin means the morning star meaning the planet of Venus. Has nothing to do with Jesus being called bright and morning star in Rev 22:16 as the use of those words are different. Lucifer is considered a Greco-Roman pagan god and has nothing to do with Satan, Devil or what other names this fallen angel is called by.

morning star son of the dawn - NIV
Lucifer son of the morning - NKJV
shinging star of the dawn - James Moffatt
Day star Son of Dawn - The Jerusalem Bible
Lucifer son of the morning - KJV

In the Roman language Lucifer was the name given to the morning star Venus as Venus was considered a pagan god. The morning star appears in the sky just before dawn. In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can be translated as Day star, son of the Dawn. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor Day star, son of the Dawn, as Lucifer, and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place from the Latin in that of interpreting Lucifer into a fallen angel now named Satan. In the original Hebrew day star, son of the dawn is used, but not for that of Satan, but for the king of Babylon. Isaiah is using this metaphor for a bright light, though not the greatest light (Jesus) to illustrate the apparent power of the Babylonian king which then faded.

The name Satan comes from a Hebrew word sah-TAHN which means adversary as in signifying an enemy, and an accuser, father of lies.

Isaiah 14:12-15 Ezekiel 28:14,15 is prophetically directed to the king of Babylon and the king of Tyre, but also meant to include someone apart from humans as being refered to as an anointed cherub or son of the morning that has always been our adversary starting with his fall from God's favor, but still has access to heaven as he presents himself before God to accuse the brethren before Christ, Job 2:1,2; Rev 12:10, until Michael wars against him and kicks him out of heaven with all his unholy angels, Rev 12:7-9. It was Satan (or whatever one wants to call this fallen angel as God never gave him a name that I know of who worked through the serpent who tempted Adam and Eve and also tempted Jesus in Matthew 4:1-11. Some might ask why would God let Satan into the garden already knowing what would happen and the answer is because it was God's will as being our Father knows we will fail at times, but as any parent, wants us to grow from the mistakes we make as we take responsibility for our actions.