Those who don't pay their tithes shall end up in hell

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

If that's the problem, then what's the solution?

I have no solution.

 

[JohnDB]

Matthew 17:27

 

[WIP]

"Now concerning the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you; for I know your willingness, about which I boast of you to the Macedonians, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal has stirred up the majority. Yet I have sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this respect, that, as I said, you may be ready; lest if some Macedonians come with me and find you unprepared, we (not to mention you!) should be ashamed of this confident boasting. Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren to go to you ahead of time, and prepare your generous gift beforehand, which you had previously promised, that it may be ready as a matter of generosity and not as a grudging obligation. But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver." 2 Corinthians 9:1-7 NKJV

"Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.” Luke 6:38 NKJV

Honor the Lord with your possessions,
And with the first fruits of all your increase;
So your barns will be filled with plenty,
And your vats will overflow with new wine.
Proverbs 3:9-10 NKJV

“Will a man rob God?
Yet you have robbed Me!
But you say,
‘In what way have we robbed You?’
In tithes and offerings."
Malachi 3:8 NKJV

Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many who were rich put in much. Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans. So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood.” Mark 12:41-44 NKJV

 

[Jim Parker]

If tithing means giving $ to the denominational church then I agree it is required in order to pay the pastor.....and the light bill, water, sewer, heat, building and grounds maintenance, and so on.

Unfortunately, it is commonly taught as an obligation for all Christians to give 10% of their gross income to their local church. People are told that the reason for their financial difficulties is that they are not tithing and that if they're in debt to "give their way out of debt" all of which, to me, is an indication of a shortage of tar and feathers.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

“Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me!
But you say, ‘In what way have we robbed You?’
In tithes and offerings."
Malachi 3:8 NKJV

This passage is commonly used by money-grubbing alleged pastors to beat on Christians so that they will give more money to the pastor out of fear of offending God. It is good evidence that such pastors hare more interested in putting money in their pockets than in "...equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; (Eph 4:12-13 NKJV)

Malachi was speaking, 400 years before Jesus was born. He was speaking to Jews under the Law who were required to tithe because the Law requires it. Christians are not under the Law. The only command Jesus gave was John 13:34RSV) “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another."

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”)

Gal 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

There is no requirement for Christians to tithe.
There is no such thing as a "New Testament tithe."
(And the choir sang; "A-hay-hay-hay-meeeennnnnnnnnnuh!)

iakov the fool

 

[Wrg1405]

Unfortunately, it is commonly taught as an obligation for all Christians to give 10% of their gross income to their local church. People are told that the reason for their financial difficulties is that they are not tithing and that if they're in debt to "give their way out of debt" all of which, to me, is an indication of a shortage of tar and feathers.

iakov the fool

Yes I was told that when I went for financial counselling. I was 40k plus in debt. Tithe 10% gross over a 3 year covenant. I actually ended up more in debt after that 3 year period. I stopped tithing after that and concentrated on paying my debts, which as you can imagine I was paying minimum amount as that was all I could afford.

I think God honoured that because my debt was paid of much much quicker than it should have been. By my calculation 279 years earlier than it should have been. And to throw into the mix he blessed me with treats along the way, like my favourite aftershave that I'd stopped buying because it was expensive.

 

[Jim Parker]

Yes I was told that when I went for financial counselling. I was 40k plus in debt. Tithe 10% gross over a 3 year covenant. I actually ended up more in debt after that 3 year period. I stopped tithing after that and concentrated on paying my debts, which as you can imagine I was paying minimum amount as that was all I could afford.

I think God honoured that because my debt was paid of much much quicker than it should have been. By my calculation 279 years earlier than it should have been. And to throw into the mix he blessed me with treats along the way, like my favourite aftershave that I'd stopped buying because it was expensive.

That was similar to my experience. I was told that I needed to tithe in order to get out of financial difficulties. I informed the "elder" that I was tithing and had gone $10,000 in debt that year. What got me out of debt was getting a better paying job.

 

[Wrg1405]

I think a further problem with preaching tithing is that those that buy into it loose the focus on other financial areas of their lives.

I did the accounts for a builder in the church. He got into fincial difficulties with his business. So I asked to look at their personal finances. I noticed that they were tithing and I said I did not think that was right or honouring to God. They owed thousands and I mean thousands in taxes and they owed workers (Many of whom were not Christian)

They refused to listen and said it was not honouring to tithe. I was so furious with them.

Cut a long story short I had to take them through bankruptcy, and this included a lot of workers who were not paid. You would have thought they had learned a lesson but sadly no. They had to go through it again.

Very sad and frustrating.

 

[Wrg1405]

That was similar to my experience. I was told that I needed to tithe in order to get out of financial difficulties. I informed the "elder" that I was tithing and had gone $10,000 in debt that year. What got me out of debt was getting a better paying job.

Yes God provided extra work for me to help. I'm not saying my debt was paid very quickly, it was about 8 years before it was gone.

 

[Wrg1405]

Here is a refreshing truth.

One church I went to used to pass round plates for collection. The pastor always said before the plates were handed, if you have a need like food to provide or other basic things to,sustain life then please do not give in the plate but feel free to take out.

Giving increased even as people were taking out as needed and the extra money was put towards helping those who didn't have the courage to take from the plate and those in the local community.

 

[Jim Parker]

Yes God provided extra work for me to help. I'm not saying my debt was paid very quickly, it was about 8 years before it was gone.

The manner in which tithing and giving (God will repay you 100-fold) borders on teaching magic or witchcraft. If you give, you will manipulate God to make you rich.
It is an abomination.

IN my humble opinon

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

I think a further problem with preaching tithing is that those that buy into it loose the focus on other financial areas of their lives.

I did the accounts for a builder in the church. He got into fincial difficulties with his business. So I asked to look at their personal finances. I noticed that they were tithing and I said I did not think that was right or honouring to God. They owed thousands and I mean thousands in taxes and they owed workers (Many of whom were not Christian)

They refused to listen and said it was not honouring to tithe. I was so furious with them.

Cut a long story short I had to take them through bankruptcy, and this included a lot of workers who were not paid. You would have thought they had learned a lesson but sadly no. They had to go through it again.

Very sad and frustrating.

You were right. It was not honoring God to not pay wages to people who were counting on those wages to feed their families.
James 5:4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.

"I have to pay my tithes" is NOT an excuse not to pay your workers or your suppliers.
Your "income" is what you have left AFTER you expenses.
That is another abuse of the "Christian tithe" teaching, requiring a tithe on the gross males sure the pastor gets his whether the laborers get theirs or not.
And what kind of Gospel does this person preach to non-christian workers who got cheated out of their wages by an alleged Christian?

 

[Jim Parker]

We're still all one. One Spirit, one faith, one body. One new man like they say. Like in the scripture you posted... for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

ANd that is an entirely different subject.

 

[smaller]

Extortion is common "in the churches."

I raised my children to learn Gods Loving unmerited Grace and Mercy in Christ. Knowing the challenges that life brings hard things.

When my oldest son was in college he got swiftly caught up in a (I'll leave it un-named) network of christianity that recruits college kids, supposedly for Christ. Not that I have a problem with any such efforts. But I warned him, years in advance, what was going to happen. That at some point some one or several "elders/authorities" would take him aside, and demand money under the threat of hell for not paying up.

And one day, it happened. Shortly before his graduation and him heading into the work world. The leader of the local effort met with him privately, in office, behind closed doors, and threatened him with eternal hell if he didn't pay into the efforts.

I don't think this is uncommon activity "in the churches."

It's extortion, plain and simple.

 

[Wrg1405]

Extortion is common "in the churches."

I raised my children to learn Gods Loving unmerited Grace and Mercy in Christ. Knowing the challenges that life brings hard things.

When my oldest son was in college he got swiftly caught up in a (I'll leave it un-named) network of christianity that recruits college kids, supposedly for Christ. Not that I have a problem with any such efforts. But I warned him, years in advance, what was going to happen. That at some point some one or several "elders/authorities" would take him aside, and demand money under the threat of hell for not paying up.

And one day, it happened. Shortly before his graduation and him heading into the work world. The leader of the local effort met with him privately, in office, behind closed doors, and threatened him with eternal hell if he didn't pay into the efforts.

I don't think this is uncommon activity "in the churches."

It's extortion, plain and simple.

Oh my word. Shocking, truly shocking. That's not church if you ask me.

 

[smaller]

Oh my word. Shocking, truly shocking. That's not church if you ask me.

I've had this happen to me so many times I've lost count. And if it's not about money, it's some other concoction. The pews are filled with fear mongerer's.

Years ago, in one of the "few" times I "think" I heard directly from God, to leave a sect, (yeah, a 'name it and claim it' healing/wealth sect- which my faith for/in was rapidly departing) after leaving one of the soon to be elders met with me over lunch, opened up his thumper (the Bible in his hands as a threatening instrument) and went, page by page, informing me of my fate in hell if I left that sect. Which only enforced the reason I left.

The group disintegrated in a fantastic array of openly exposed sins of the leaders about 6 months later. Ask me if I heard from God.

 

[Wrg1405]

I've had this happen to me so many times I've lost count. And if it's not about money, it's some other concoction. The pews are filled with fear mongerer's.

Years ago, in one of the "few" times I "think" I heard directly from God, to leave a sect, after leaving one of the soon to be elders met with me over lunch, opened up his thumper (the Bible in his hands as a threatening instrument) and went, page by page, informing me of my fate in hell if I left that sect. Which only enforced the reason I left.

The group disintegrated in a fantastic array of openly exposed sins of the leaders about 6 months later. Ask me if I heard from God.

I thank God you got out and he opened your eyes. I have to be honest any so called church that departs from the Gospel of Jesus and true saving faith can be considered heretical and a cult.

 

[smaller]

I thank God you got out and he opened your eyes. I have to be honest any so called church that departs from the Gospel of Jesus and true saving faith can be considered heretical and a cult.

I took my own children OUT of a well known, not to be discussed old orthodox church because their Sunday school teacher was teaching them that anyone who didn't belong to that sect was going to, and I quote, "burn in hell forever like a wiener" and they came home crying over grandma and grandpa who didn't belong to that sect.

I said, 'that's enough of that baloney.'

It's all extortion, which IS in the heart of man. It can reflect out in many ways, particularly so when it comes to money and "keeping the flock rounded up and paying up."

Religious people who are like this make me sick. Sorry to be so frank. It's one of the darker aspects of "faith." This kind of behind the curtains activity.

 

[WIP]

This passage is commonly used by money-grubbing alleged pastors to beat on Christians so that they will give more money to the pastor out of fear of offending God. It is good evidence that such pastors hare more interested in putting money in their pockets than in "...equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; (Eph 4:12-13 NKJV)

Malachi was speaking, 400 years before Jesus was born. He was speaking to Jews under the Law who were required to tithe because the Law requires it. Christians are not under the Law. The only command Jesus gave was John 13:34RSV) “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another."

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”)

Gal 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

There is no requirement for Christians to tithe.
There is no such thing as a "New Testament tithe."
(And the choir sang; "A-hay-hay-hay-meeeennnnnnnnnnuh!)

iakov the fool

I agree with everything you said. Malachi was not just speaking about tithes, however. He also spoke of offerings and so did Jesus.

“Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. Therefore, when you do a charitable deed (not if), do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But when you do a charitable deed (not if), do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly." Matthew 6:1-4 NKJV (parenthesis mine) Some revisions use the word alms in place of charitable deed. Giving to the church is a charitable deed, assuming the church is using it in a godly manner.

 

[Wrg1405]

It's all extortion, which IS in the heart of man. It can reflect out in many ways, particularly so when it comes to money and "keeping the flock rounded up and paying up."

The love of money is the root of evil, not to be confused with money is evil.

1 Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And some people, craving money, have wandered from the true faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows.