Thou Shall not Kill Or Murder

[Rance-Adams]

That's not the point.
.

The old Testament is invalid for us Christians to live by. Look at all the laws in Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, do you follow all of those rites and laws as a Christian??? Jesus came to show us a different way to live. The Old Testament is a narrative for us to learn from, it is the prelude to Christ. It's not a pattern or example for us to live by, if it were then we would be Jews.

 

[Rance-Adams]

you are entiltled to believe in pacifism but reality happens at times on might have to take a life. in the case of defending ones family. if it was commanded to be there and we both knew centurions were under legets and command a hundred men. they took lives in war. yet jesus said nothing to the effect stop being them.

Jesus said nothing, He was silent therefore you cannot infer a command or principle to justify killing from simply being neutral and silent on a matter. That's illogical reasoning.

 

[Gary]

The old Testament is invalid for us Christians to live by. Look at all the laws in Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, do you follow all of those rites and laws as a Christian??? Jesus came to show us a different way to live. The Old Testament is a narrative for us to learn from, it is the prelude to Christ. It's not a pattern or example for us to live by, if it were then we would be Jews.

Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

.

 

[Deborah13]

God most definitely changed what was right and wrong from the old Testament to the New Testament.

Welcome to CF, Rance. We are happy to have you join us. Hope you will stay around awhile and enjoy this Christian community.
We do a lot of iron sharpening iron around here. Your voice is welcome here.
Blessings to you, Deborah

 

[Deborah13]

The old Testament is invalid for us Christians to live by. Look at all the laws in Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, do you follow all of those rites and laws as a Christian??? Jesus came to show us a different way to live. The Old Testament is a narrative for us to learn from, it is the prelude to Christ. It's not a pattern or example for us to live by, if it were then we would be Jews.

There is a lot more scripture in the OT that we can study to determine what God's moral principles are, besides the Law of Moses (aka. old covenant) that you refer to. To be sure those same principles will be found before the cross and after the cross.
So when Cain killed Abel we can determine that killing, in that case, looked a certain way and God said it was wrong and why it was wrong. God's moral principles or law.
In your last sentence I'm not sure who you are referring to as being 'us' and 'we'. But that is a different topic not included in this discussion.

 

[chozen1956]

Nobody knows what they would do in any given situation. I can't turn the other cheek. But Christ in me can and has and does all the time. yet, as a Christian, I've popped a few guys. It's all nonsense. This talk of sin is detrimental to faith. Keep your eyes on the Lord. And if you can't, then ask the Lord to help you. When I rest in Christ, life is better. When I begin to look at my circumstances, life gets worse. I'm a Christian not because I'm a good man, but because Jesus was a good man and a good God. Perfect. He chose me not because I had anything to offer, but because He loved me. If I kill? I kill. If I am killed, I am killed. I rather not think about what ifs. And all the self-righteous christians, stop. You sin just like everyone else. Rather, the sin living in you sins. So what? If you keep trying to be good, you'll fail miserably. If you know that you're a saint because of the work Jesus did, you'll find that life is much less complicated.

 

[Edward]

Nobody knows what they would do in any given situation. I can't turn the other cheek. But Christ in me can and has and does all the time. yet, as a Christian, I've popped a few guys. It's all nonsense. This talk of sin is detrimental to faith. Keep your eyes on the Lord. And if you can't, then ask the Lord to help you. When I rest in Christ, life is better. When I begin to look at my circumstances, life gets worse. I'm a Christian not because I'm a good man, but because Jesus was a good man and a good God. Perfect. He chose me not because I had anything to offer, but because He loved me. If I kill? I kill. If I am killed, I am killed. I rather not think about what ifs. And all the self-righteous christians, stop. You sin just like everyone else. Rather, the sin living in you sins. So what? If you keep trying to be good, you'll fail miserably. If you know that you're a saint because of the work Jesus did, you'll find that life is much less complicated.

Well said brother!

 

[Edward]

What chozin1956 said was pretty much what one of my morning devotionals said this morning. So I'll copy/paste it for relevance.


Less Than The Least
I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies and of all the truth which you have shown Your servant. Genesis 32:10

Unlike those who think highly of themselves, Jacob knew that he had been ruined by sin (Gen. 32:10). He thought himself a man unworthy of God’s grace. He had cheated his brother Esau out of his birthright (ch.27), and his brother hated him for it. Now, years later, Jacob was going to face Esau again.

“I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies,” Jacob prayed, using a word for “least” that suggests the tiniest object. “Deliver me, I pray” (32:10-11).

How odd to see those phrases side by side: I am unworthy of Your mercies . . . . Deliver me! Yet Jacob could pray for mercy because his hope lay not in his own worth, but in God’s promise to look with favor on those who throw themselves at His feet. Humility and contrition are the keys that open the heart of God. Someone has said that the best disposition for praying is being stripped of everything. It is crying out of the depths. It comes from the soul that knows its deep depravity.

Such prayers are offered by those who are thoroughly convicted of their sin and shame, but, at the same time, are convinced of God’s grace that goes out to undeserving sinners. God hears best those who cry out: “God, be merciful to me a sinner!” (Luke 18:13).
Lord, I am like Jacob, in need of Your mercy.

I have failed You, and I bow at Your feet today.
Thank You for being a merciful God, ready
and able to forgive and restore me.

It is fitting for a great God to forgive great sinners.//

Taken from one of my devotional sites with all due respect. They're always good and i recommend them.

http://calledfromthedesert.com/

 

[chozen1956]

Well said brother!

Be blessed in the continuance of the true faith brother.

 

[Edward]

Amen!

 

[Rance-Adams]

Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

.

Exactly, Jesus came to fulfill the Law. God's instructions to His people under the old law was one thing and Jesus coming to live and teach a way for us to follow is a different thing. By the scriptures saying Jesus came to fulfill, then that shows us two different things. Once Jesus fulfilled the law, it was different. If the old law was sufficient to live our lives by then why have Jesus come at all? Again if Christians are going to obey one old law then they should obey all of them, who are they to say which laws to obey and which not to obey. Jesus completed the old covenant and gave us a different way to live. He did not destroy the Law or Prophets, He made them complete. He made them what God wants them to be and what God always wanted it to be.

 

[Rance-Adams]

There is a lot more scripture in the OT that we can study to determine what God's moral principles are, besides the Law of Moses (aka. old covenant) that you refer to. To be sure those same principles will be found before the cross and after the cross.
So when Cain killed Abel we can determine that killing, in that case, looked a certain way and God said it was wrong and why it was wrong. God's moral principles or law.
In your last sentence I'm not sure who you are referring to as being 'us' and 'we'. But that is a different topic not included in this discussion.

Yes the OT gives us a picture of God and is a narrative of how He interacted with His people. If we are to live by the teachings of the OT then we should live by all of them. Who is to say which ones we are to follow and which ones we are not. Most of God's morals in the OT are found in the NT and Jesus added, clarified, fulfilled what the Old Law said. God's people were justified in punishing wrong done to them at an equal value (eye for eye, tooth for tooth) yet that is not what Jesus taught and not how God wants Christians to live. I just can't see God expecting me today to follow His teachings to the Jews, I'm a Christian therefore I follow the principles of Christ. I imagine my view on this is a minority one yet I hope all will consider it as I consider others' views.

I was using 'us' and 'we' meaning Christians.

 

[Rance-Adams]

Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

.

Did you not respond earlier that the Old Covenant was obsolete? And I thought you were making the point that we as Christians live under the New Covenant. I'm not quite clear on your belief and argument.

 

[Malachi]

The Old Testament is a narrative for us to learn from, it is the prelude to Christ. It's not a pattern or example for us to live by, if it were then we would be Jews.

Evidently you need to know a little bit more about this matter. If we are going to be consistent and make the New Testament our authority (which is true) then we must give heed to ALL that is written therein. Because there are a multitude of lessons for Christians in the Old Testament, we are given the following instructions by the Holy Spirit:
Rom 15:4
4For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. ["The Scriptures = Tanach = OT]
2 Tim 3:15-17
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [The holy Scriptures = Tanach = OT]
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. [All Scripture = OT + NT]

Christians should not get overzealous about ignoring the OT. Yes, the Old Covenant has been replaced by the New Covenant. But the whole Bible is an integrated and harmonious revelation of God's heart and mind. We dare not ignore the OT.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes the OT gives us a picture of God and is a narrative of how He interacted with His people. If we are to live by the teachings of the OT then we should live by all of them. Who is to say which ones we are to follow and which ones we are not. Most of God's morals in the OT are found in the NT and Jesus added, clarified, fulfilled what the Old Law said. God's people were justified in punishing wrong done to them at an equal value (eye for eye, tooth for tooth) yet that is not what Jesus taught and not how God wants Christians to live. I just can't see God expecting me today to follow His teachings to the Jews, I'm a Christian therefore I follow the principles of Christ. I imagine my view on this is a minority one yet I hope all will consider it as I consider others' views.

I was using 'us' and 'we' meaning Christians.

Hey, good to see you back. It took me awhile to stop laughing my grandson was just telling his mother that he was 1001s greats-grandson of Adam. Why he was thinking about that, I have no idea.

I do agree with you that the NT clearly lists what is sin.
However I think the OT is very valuable to us for a more complete understanding of many things written in the NT. In a discussion such as this one, I think we can show the difference between all killing and what would be defined as murder. The first instance of murder is found in Genesis. We can see what happened and why and how God respond to it.
About the OT being written to and for the Jews, I don't agree.
2Ti 3:16 every Writing is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness,
We also know that when the Bereans heard Paul they would go to the scripture/writings to see if what he said was true. Those writings were the OT. We see that Jesus and the apostles quoted from the OT.
But aside from all that, Adam, Cain, Noah, Job, etc. were not Jews they were Gentiles. The nation of Israel did not exist at that time. I don't believe God's moral laws have changed down through the ages. I believe salvation has always been by grace, through faith, see Abraham. I see the first act of God's grace for a sinner was in the garden. The OT is so rich in knowledge and seeing the nature of God, I know that by reading and studying it,especially here on this forum, I have been very blessed and have a better understanding of the NT and the words that our Lord spoke.

 

[WIP]

Remember, if you are presenting an opposing viewpoint, please provide scriptural reference that supports your position. We can argue opinions until we're blue in the face or the cows come home, to use a couple cliches, never gaining in understanding.

 

[Deborah13]

Rance-Adams
I needed to restate my post in order to comply with the sensible rules of this forum, I apologized for not doing that in my previous post, per laziness on my part!

I do agree with you that the NT clearly lists what is sin.
However I think the OT is very valuable to us for a more complete understanding of many things written in the NT. In a discussion such as this one, I think we can show the difference between all killing and what would be defined as murder. The first instance of murder is found in Genesis. We can see what happened and why and how God respond to it.
About the OT being written to and for the Jews, I don't agree.
2Ti 3:16 every Writing is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness,
We also know that when the Bereans heard Paul they would go to the scripture/writings to see if what he said was true.
Act 17:11 and these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, they received the word with all readiness of mind, every day examining the Writings whether those things were so;
Those writings were the OT. We see that Jesus and the apostles quoted from the OT.
Lev 19:18 `Thou dost not take vengeance, nor watch the sons of thy people; and thou hast had love to thy neighbour as thyself; I am Yehovah.
Mat 5:43 `Ye heard that it was said: Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and shalt hate thine enemy;
Mat 5:44 but I--I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those cursing you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those accusing you falsely, and persecuting you,
Rom 12:17 giving back to no one evil for evil; providing right things before all men.
But aside from all that, Adam, Cain, Noah, Job, etc. were not Jews they were Gentiles. The nation of Israel did not exist at that time. Jacob's sons would become the nation of Israel.
Gen 25:23 And Yehovah saith to her, `Two nations are in thy womb, and two peoples from thy bowels are parted; and the one people than the other people is stronger; and the elder doth serve the younger.'
I don't believe God's moral laws have changed down through the ages. I believe salvation has always been by grace, through faith, see Abraham.
Gen 15:6 And he hath believed in Jehovah, and He reckoneth it to him--righteousness.
Rom 4:3 for what doth the writing say? `And Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him--to righteousness;'
I see the first act of God's grace for a sinner was in the garden.
Gen 3:21 And Jehovah God doth make to the man and to his wife coats of skin, and doth clothe them.
The OT is so rich in knowledge and seeing the nature of God, I know that by reading and studying it,especially here on this forum, I have been very blessed and have a better understanding of the NT and the words that our Lord spoke.

 

[Butch5]

Christians that believe they cant Fight Back are Deceived!

The commandment that says thou shall not kill is translated wrong it is really thou shall not murder.
But here is a very interesting article on the subject of self defense and if you have to kill someone. Not that you would want to, but to protect your wife and children, you might have to.
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1026247/pg1

Why do you say the commandment is translated wrongly?

 

[Butch5]

All we need to do is look at history to see how the earliest Christians understood this command.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian
Nay, He puts His interdict on every sort of man-killing by that one
summary precept, “Thou shalt not kill.”

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 197 AD.
If we are enjoined, then, to love our enemies, as I have remarked above,
whom have we to hate? If injured, we are forbidden to retaliate, lest we
become as bad ourselves: who can suffer injury at our hands?

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Clement of Alexandria

Above all, Christians are not allowed to correct with violence the
delinquencies of sins. For it is not those that abstain from wickedness
from compulsion, but those that abstain from choice, that God crowns.


Aristides 125 A.D. (speaking of Christians)
They do not worship idols (made) in the image of man; and whatsoever
they would not that others should do unto them, they do not to
others; and of the food which is consecrated to idols they do not eat, for
they are pure. And their oppressors they appease (lit: comfort) and
make them their friends; they do good to their enemies; and their
women, O King, are pure as virgins, and their daughters are modest; and
their men keep themselves from every unlawful union and from all
uncleanness, in the hope of a recompense to come in the other world.

There are a lot more quotes that could be posted. The point is that for the first 300 years of Christianity none of the writers of the Early church advocated or supported the use of violence for any reason.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

Why do all internet roads lead back to Godlike productions? smh