Discussion in 'Theology' started by Lewis, May 18, 2014.
Ive wrestled with that,but I don't think Paul committed premeditated murder
Persecuting the church is premeditated murder, not that it matters.
Paul was doing what he thought was right,I can't see that as premeditated(my opinion)
i believe the commandment do not kill was intended as do not kill or murder unlawfully
there were only certain provisions in the OT covenant when the Israelites were allowed to take the life of another
example when they went to war against there enemies it was lawful under the OT covenant to take a life
Stoning or putting people to death for breaking one of 10 commandments or 613 statutes example dishonoring parents, adultery, homosexuality, practicing witchcraft etc
these were all lawful justifications identified in the OT covenant when they could take peoples lives
if they took someones life outside of the OT provisions then they were held accountable and subject to the consequences of there actions
now we know that God is the same yesterday today and forever but God did not have a problem wiping out the entire earth and only saving noah and his family
does this make God a murderer or a serial killer and this wasn't done because the law had not been given
this is a consistent through out the OT, Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. Genesis 38.7
the point is God did not hesitate to take the life of people that disobeyed him
and neither did abram or others before the giving of the law or after it
there was a purpose for this and that was to remove disobedience and rebellious people to prevent others from following there example and this was the consequence and deterrent
the OT is the foundation for the NT the NT is the amendment of the OT the OT cannot be fulfilled without the NT and the NT cannot be established with out the OT, they are both covenant agreements that coexist to support each other
As NT converts we are observers of the OT and practitioners of the NT
i think where it gets grey about the transition from the OT to the NT is how the OT examples law and statutes effect us today
When Jesus was born and was teaching preaching and healing people the Israelites were still practicing OT law customs and traditions
Jesus went about there synagogues and in public places teaching then about his doctrine and the transition from there previous understanding and practices taught by the priests to them and there ancestors
to having a personal relation with God through him and being taught directly by the Holly Spirit
So Jesus had to reteach them about the relationship between the law statutes and this new doctrine that was going to develop and improve there relationship with God and that each one of them were going be Gods tabernacle and that the law and statutes there were on tablets would be rewritten by the teachings of Jesus and placed on there hearts where they could share this good news with there neighbors and the Shekinah glory that once a year consumed the sin offering in the ark of the covenant would so be in them for ever when they received the Holy Spirit
so Jesus taught them that by loving the lord there God with all there mind soul mind and strength and loving there neighbors us them selves this should prevent them from doing these things to each other and then apostles carried on the ministry of Jesus
Now when the gentiles finally received salvation and each one of us were called by his grace to receive Jesus, we all understand in general that we cannot kill or murder people, however as a christian we also have civil rights and one of them is to defend your self or the defense of another person and if you wish to excise that right that is your provocative
however being persecuted for the sake of the gospel and being told you will murdered if you confess that Jesus Christ is your Lord is another matter this may not be a self defense case but rather becoming a martyr to stand up for Jesus and your beliefs and convictions
Just food for thought
He didn't have a problem with it? Maybe we should review John 3:16.
Does it make God a murderer? No, it makes God the potter, the creator, the one in control.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9 NKJV
Job 38, 39 NKJV
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
2 “Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3 Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10 When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
11 When I said,
‘This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!’
12 “Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
14 It takes on form like clay under a seal,
And stands out like a garment.
15 From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the upraised arm is broken.
16 “Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you?
Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.
19 “Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,
20 That you may take it to its territory,
That you may know the paths to its home?
21 Do you know it, because you were born then,
Or because the number of your days is great?
22 “Have you entered the treasury of snow,
Or have you seen the treasury of hail,
23 Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
For the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is light diffused,
Or the east wind scattered over the earth?
25 “Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water,
Or a path for the thunderbolt,
26 To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one,
A wilderness in which there is no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate waste,
And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass?
28 Has the rain a father?
Or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth?
30 The waters harden like stone,
And the surface of the deep is frozen.
31 “Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades,
Or loose the belt of Orion?
32 Can you bring out Mazzaroth[a] in its season?
Or can you guide the Great Bear with its cubs?
33 Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you set their dominion over the earth?
34 “Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
That an abundance of water may cover you?
35 Can you send out lightnings, that they may go,
And say to you, ‘Here we are!’?
36 Who has put wisdom in the mind?
Or who has given understanding to the heart?
37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom?
Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven,
38 When the dust hardens in clumps,
And the clods cling together?
39 “Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
40 When they crouch in their dens,
Or lurk in their lairs to lie in wait?
41 Who provides food for the raven,
When its young ones cry to God,
And wander about for lack of food?
“Do you know the time when the wild mountain goats bear young?
Or can you mark when the deer gives birth?
2 Can you number the months that they fulfill?
Or do you know the time when they bear young?
3 They bow down,
They bring forth their young,
They deliver their offspring.[a]
4 Their young ones are healthy,
They grow strong with grain;
They depart and do not return to them.
5 “Who set the wild donkey free?
Who loosed the bonds of the onager,
6 Whose home I have made the wilderness,
And the barren land his dwelling?
7 He scorns the tumult of the city;
He does not heed the shouts of the driver.
8 The range of the mountains is his pasture,
And he searches after every green thing.
9 “Will the wild ox be willing to serve you?
Will he bed by your manger?
10 Can you bind the wild ox in the furrow with ropes?
Or will he plow the valleys behind you?
11 Will you trust him because his strength is great?
Or will you leave your labor to him?
12 Will you trust him to bring home your grain,
And gather it to your threshing floor?
13 “The wings of the ostrich wave proudly,
But are her wings and pinions like the kindly stork’s?
14 For she leaves her eggs on the ground,
And warms them in the dust;
15 She forgets that a foot may crush them,
Or that a wild beast may break them.
16 She treats her young harshly, as though they were not hers;
Her labor is in vain, without concern,
17 Because God deprived her of wisdom,
And did not endow her with understanding.
18 When she lifts herself on high,
She scorns the horse and its rider.
19 “Have you given the horse strength?
Have you clothed his neck with thunder?
20 Can you frighten him like a locust?
His majestic snorting strikes terror.
21 He paws in the valley, and rejoices in his strength;
He gallops into the clash of arms.
22 He mocks at fear, and is not frightened;
Nor does he turn back from the sword.
23 The quiver rattles against him,
The glittering spear and javelin.
24 He devours the distance with fierceness and rage;
Nor does he come to a halt because the trumpet has sounded.
25 At the blast of the trumpet he says, ‘Aha!’
He smells the battle from afar,
The thunder of captains and shouting.
26 “Does the hawk fly by your wisdom,
And spread its wings toward the south?
27 Does the eagle mount up at your command,
And make its nest on high?
28 On the rock it dwells and resides,
On the crag of the rock and the stronghold.
29 From there it spies out the prey;
Its eyes observe from afar.
30 Its young ones suck up blood;
And where the slain are, there it is.”
My point is that premeditated murder has nothing to do with anything. Murder is murder, premeditated or not. Murder is the unjustified killing of another person, and premeditation has no bearing on that.
From a previous post of yours:
"A murderer cannot have salvation in his soul, because he is not suppose to be living. He is to be executed and sent to the Father for judgment....But to murder, to lie in wait and premeditate is to commit a criminal homicide. This should carry the death sentence, and is unforgivable while you are in the flesh body."
Is there any biblical support for these assertions?
He held the men's "coats" while the stoned Stephen. (Act 7:58) He approved and,supported their act of murder.
And, if premediated actually mattered, the purposeful seeking out of Christians for the purpose of stoning is about as premediated as it gets, is it not?
I'd say that qualifies.
iakov the fool
How about when David did it?
David had Uriah the Hittite killed by ordering the soldiers to leave him unprotected in the midst of the enemy. It was the equivalent of murder and conspiracy to commit murder. (So I guess there's hope for Hilary!)
It is David who wrote: "Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered." (Psa 32:1)
Iakov the fool
I understand,however there's a difference between killing someone and murdering someone
David didn't murder him,his hope was that he got killed
He did more than hope. By scheming to place Uriah in harms way, ensuring his demise because he coveted his wife left blood on his hands. Do you disagree with this? Do you believe 2 Samuel 11:16 amounts to simply hoping?
Of course there is. I gave a definition of murder to show that they are different and that difference most certainly is not premeditation.
You didn't actually address what I said nor did you answer my question.
Check out the bit where God sends Nathan to David to expose the mess. If you skip down to 2nd Samuel 12 v9 you will see the plain words of "you killed him" to David, twice.
Separate names with a comma.