Thou Shall not Kill Or Murder

[reba]

1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

the word provide
G4306
προνοέω
pronoeō
pron-o-eh'-o
From G4253 and G3539; to consider in advance, that is, look out for beforehand (active voice by way of maintenance for others; middle voice by way of circumspection for oneself): - provide (for).

Luk_22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.


If one is going to live by the letter of the law... then it best be the whole law...

Luk_14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple

Mat_6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Mat_5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I'd be interested in seeing where in Scripture it says or implies that we are to use whatever means or force necessary up to and possibly including deadly force to stop someone from harming another. I'm not finding any but I seem to find plenty about giving one's cloak when asked for a shirt, going the extra mile, turning the other cheek, loving one's enemies, not taking vengeance, etc. This seems to imply that if we are to love one another including our enemies and even die for our friends then it would seem fitting that the right thing to do is to put ourselves at risk to save another if that's what it takes.

This is not to say that I would be able to do what I'm saying but that is not the question. The question is what would God expect me to do?

Good morning WIP,
I don't know Jim's position on this but he just posted a perfect example of not using the 27 Life Application Commentaries on the Bible but to return to the Bible first and then to reconcile it with the Commentaries. I understand the idea of viewing the Bible as I do is not widely accepted but the Holy Spirit impressed this view upon me and Thompson's Chain Reference Bible will lead to the original scriptures in the old testament, as we call it and demonstrate why I believe I'm correct in my view. I do not consider the New testament any less than the Word of God but Jesus and the disciples taught from the Bible and there was not a New Testament, it came later.

Good work, Jim.

 

[Jim Parker]

I'd be interested in seeing where in Scripture it says or implies that we are to use whatever means or force necessary up to and possibly including deadly force to stop someone from harming another. I'm not finding any but I seem to find plenty about giving one's cloak when asked for a shirt, going the extra mile, turning the other cheek, loving one's enemies, not taking vengeance, etc. This seems to imply that if we are to love one another including our enemies and even die for our friends then it would seem fitting that the right thing to do is to put ourselves at risk to save another if that's what it takes.

This is not to say that I would be able to do what I'm saying but that is not the question. The question is what would God expect me to do?

Taking my cloak or making me go a mile is not a deadly threat to anyone. Neither is turning my other cheek to get slapped on the other side as well.
Jesus told his disciples that, if they did not have swords to sell their cloaks and buy them. (Luke 22:36)
Swords have one purpose.
Jesus also said, when He learned that two people in the group had swords, that two was sufficient.
That indicates to me that the use of deadly force in self defense is acceptable in Jesus' sight because that would be all that two people with swords would be able to do, repel robbers.

Life is a gift. I believe we have the right and responsibility to defend it against unrighteous attacks.

iakov the fool

 

[Rance-Adams]

Jim Parker -
Nope didn't miss them. I'm a Christian and follow Jesus' principles, which are found in the New Testament. The Old Testament is not applicable to Christians when it comes to how we are to live. God's people in the OT were a select few. Today anyone can be a child of God. In the OT God instructed His people through Moses and other prophets. Today God speaks to His people, Christians, through Jesus.
Hebrews 1:1-2 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
Hebrews 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant…
Hebrews 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
Matthew 17:1-8 Six days later Jesus *took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and *led them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!” When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified. And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.” And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.
Romans 6:14-15
Romans 8:1-8
2 Corinthians 3:1-18
Galatians 3:15-29

A few of the Old Laws and expectation of God’s people, the Jews: physical circumcision, animal and grain sacrifices for sins and for things other than sins, sanctuary cities for criminals, observing the Sabbath by doing no work, the Levites have a higher standing, stoning disobedient children, leaving the corners of your grain fields for the poor, cannot eat rabbits, hogs; no fish without fins and scales; can't eat eagles, vultures, buzzards, kites, falcons, ravens, ostrich, owls, seagulls, hawks, heron; women offering sacrifices for atonement after childbirth, observing certain festivals. And hundreds of other laws and instructions which can be found throughout the Old Testament most prominently in Leviticus, Numbers, & Deuteronomy that are not applicable to Christians, including war.
If you are going to use laws, rites, examples, instructions from the Old Testament then you must be consistent and follow all of them. You can't pick and choose which of God's instructions to follow and which you don't. God sent Jesus to give us a different message than what He gave His people in the OT. Jesus showed and taught us how to live. Non violence is one of those principles He gave us.

I can't speak to Almighty God's reasoning for being violent in the OT and teaching unconditional love and non violence in the NT. What I do know is there is a distinct difference in God's message once Jesus became man.

 

[Rance-Adams]

Nice Spotted collection of scripture ripped out of their contexts. That is known as raping the scriptures. a very important to always remember that the scriptures are penned but about 40 writers and all of them with the same message because some of them never knew one another but because God inspired them to write His Word to His creation, all sixty-six books are authored by God.

The rule here is, no scripture, no collection of scriptures and no passage of scriptures can ever be fully nor correctly understood without the light of all scripture shining it's light upon it/them.

You need to go back and see what the context of each verse is.

Have to disagree, there is no taking the verses I posted out of context. Not even sure I understand your reasoning for making that accusation. I know the context of scripture pretty well. The verses I quoted stand for themselves fairly clearly. I'm not close to knowing everything I need to about God's word. That being said I have studied in depth God's word for 30 years and studied the issue of Christian nonviolence for 15 years. Your attitude of mocking God's scriptures that I posted with your snide remark of "Nice Spotted collection of scripture ripped out of their contexts. That is known as raping the scriptures." is unappreciated and shows your lack of respect for God's word and for civil argument.
The rest of your quote I agree with. The thing to be aware of when reading scripture in light of other scripture is to understand that they can not contradict one another; therefore your understanding and conclusion of scripture must be consistent and not contradictory with the rest of the Bible

 

[Rance-Adams]

So if an evil person is about to rape and kill you mother, wife, and daughter and it will take violence to stop him, you do what? You don't resist?
You see someone beating a child with a baseball bat and you don't resist?
A jihadist is shooting children in a schoolroom and you don't resist?

Are you kidding me?

I'm not kidding you, I'm explaining the principles' of Jesus. Paul stated there was a constant struggle within himself between the Spirit and flesh. When it comes to retribution and violence I have that same struggle. I can't deny the teachings of Jesus as much as I would like to. Were it not for me being a Christian my demeanor and attitude would have: put me in jail, murdered someone, been murdered myself, or no telling what else terrible thing.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Nope didn't miss them. I'm a Christian and follow Jesus' principles, which are found in the New Testament. The Old Testament is not applicable to Christians when it comes to how we are to live. God's people in the OT were a select few. Today anyone can be a child of God. In the OT God instructed His people through Moses and other prophets. Today God speaks to His people, Christians, through Jesus.

Without the Bible that Jesus taught from known to the Christian as the first 39 books, a.k.a. the Old Testament) the following 27 Commentaries are meaning, they are the teaching the disciples were given from God from the Jewish Copy of the Bible, Life Application Commentaries.

Purchase yourself a Thompson's Chain Reference Copy of the scriptures you will find that every teaching of Christianity is traced back to those 39 books you speak ill of.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Matthew 5:39
But I say to you, do not resist an evil person

Let's just take this one verse from the Sermon on the Mount. When we return, for a very local context and read through to the last verse, Jesus is making a series of contrasts about how we are to live. In a slightly greater context, this is but a very small portion f the Sermon on the Mount. But there is a great context that is expressed in a simple set of statements.

No scripture, collection of scriptures, nor any passage of scriptures can ever be fully understood without the light of all scripture shinning on it. This makes the logical question to be asked, "Why?" That would be because both the Old and the New Testaments were inspired/authored by the same person of the God Head created/inspired by the same person, the Son of God. (John 1:1-3) Jesus is the one that wrote the Ten Commandments that were never intended to save anyone. However the Ten Commandments are The Perfect Word Picture of our Triune God, any person of it.

Because of that, serious study of both Testaments, taken with Prayer and Submission will reveal Jesus, presence, throughout the Old Testament, confirming the context of the Bible begins with, "In the beginning..." through the very last word of The Revelation of Jesus, the Christ are ofr one context, how God's people are saved.

Even Abraham waited in Paradise until Jesus died on the cross to go to Heaven. (Matt 27:50-54)

 

[Jim Parker]

The Old Testament is not applicable to Christians when it comes to how we are to live.

Really??? So we can ignore the 10 commandments? We can oppress foreigners?
You may want to rethink that. I recommend a serious study of Deuteronomy.

If you are going to use laws, rites, examples, instructions from the Old Testament then you must be consistent and follow all of them. You can't pick and choose which of God's instructions to follow and which you don't.

Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial requirements of the Law.
Jesus replaced the Levitical priesthood.
It's still wrong to murder, to worship idols and to commit adultery is it not?
Those are from the OT.

I can't speak to Almighty God's reasoning for being violent in the OT and teaching unconditional love and non violence in the NT.

I see that. No where in the NT does Jesus tell believers to allow murderers to kill their families, neighbors, loved ones, etc.
IN fact, Jesus told His disciples: “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luk 22:36)
There is only one purpose for a sword.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Really??? So we can ignore the 10 commandments? We can oppress foreigners?
You may want to rethink that. I recommend a serious study of Deuteronomy.

Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial requirements of the Law.
Jesus replaced the Levitical priesthood.
It's still wrong to murder, to worship idols and to commit adultery is it not?
Those are from the OT.

I see that. No where in the NT does Jesus tell believers to allow murderers to kill their families, neighbors, loved ones, etc.
IN fact, Jesus told His disciples: “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luk 22:36)
There is only one purpose for a sword.

What is that one purpose?

 

[jasonc]

What is that one purpose?

Slay rhollo,lol

 

[Jim Parker]

What is that one purpose?

Really??
You really do not know what swords were made for?
Take a guess.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Really??
You really do not know what swords were made for?
Take a guess.

I think you are misunderstanding the passage.
It's not about Christians arming themselves to kill the enemy.
It's about a one time event so that Jesus could fulfill prophesy and be numbered with the transgressors.

 

[Jim Parker]

I think you are misunderstanding the passage.
It's not about Christians arming themselves to kill the enemy.

How about to defend themselves against robbers, etc. ?

It's about a one time event so that Jesus could fulfill prophesy and be numbered with the transgressors.

He was numbered with transgressors when he was crucified between two robbers.
Mar 15:27-28 With Him they also crucified two robbers, one on His right and the other on His left. So the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And He was numbered with the transgressors".

 

[Jim Parker]

It's about a one time event so that Jesus could fulfill prophesy and be numbered with the transgressors.

Luke does relate having swords with that.
Mark does not.

 

[RANCE ADAMS]

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1026247/pg1
Most refer to the Sixth Commandment that tells us "Thou shall not kill." This was incorrectly translated in English and should read, "Thou shalt not murder." In the chapters following, God gave to Moses many of the situations which require a death penalty. God clearly has not told us never to kill. He has told us not to murder, which means we are not to take an innocent life. If someone is trying to harm you or kill you, they are not innocent.

The Bible is full of stories promoting self-defense. One of the earliest tells of some men who kidnapped Lot, the patriarch Abraham's nephew. Abraham organized a militia and by force of arms rescued Lot from his kidnappers (Gen. 14:12 ).

Government Tyranny

Tyranny rises from within a nation when the government has been captured by men who use their power to oppress the people. Thus, the framers of the constitution recognized the need and right of citizens to keep and bear arms in order to insure real liberty.

Biblically speaking, tyranny exists when civil government departs from God's law and commands us to do things that are forbidden by God or forbids those things we are commanded by God to do.

Many Christians go through and twist every Scripture imaginable and take them out of context on how to deal with violence, tyranny, and oppression. It is no wonder God's laws made it's way into our constitution to be followed and guaranteed as inalienable rights of citizens to protect themselves, form militias and own weapons for their own self-defense. In God's laws and mirrored in our constitution we have or had, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Now, in these prophetic "days of Noah" once again we are seeing wickedness and violence covering the land.

Your point may be right, I do not know I don't care to get into translation or semantic debate. Also I'm not saying this is not worth the discussion on this forum; however my 2 cents are as follows. As this is a "Christian" forum what does it matter what God told His people in the OT through Moses about killing/murdering? The more important issue is this is not applicable to how God wants His children to live today. God has been very clear through Jesus that we as followers of Jesus are never justified in killing/murdering. No where does Jesus condone this in any way; in fact there are vast scriptures and examples of followers of Jesus to be absolutely loving, nonviolent, and to never physically retaliate against wrong done to us.

 

[RANCE ADAMS]

rome had the death penalty for crimes commited against the state. did the church teach that the Christian whom killed was exempt from such law? ie murder, etc that were lawfully and moral under god. again what is the sword given to the government for? to act with the wrath of god against those who do evil. while rome was corrupt. paul did teach that one ought to obey her laws. if rome had a reasonable law for death for murder. would and should have the early church broke said law and took haven of those wanted criminals. and btw peter said its a shame to be in prison for such crimes.

and well I guess god lied then and tempted isreal to sin, Joshua et all sinned. killing is killing the fact is god charged men to kill for him. he does it again. arguing that all forms of killing are a sin is simply wrong. romans 13 is clear on that. whom is the appointed avenger of blood for crimes of murder? the government.

and the ylt calls the torah as saying in greek murder.


the other quote I posted was from the ylt.

There's a difference that can't be overlooked between what authority God gives an earthly state/kingdom and what God expects from subjects of a Spiritual/heavenly kingdom. Also what God instructed His people to do in the OT is not applicable to what He has expects of His people to do today through Jesus. Just study Leviticus, Numbers, & Deuteronomy. If one is going to use the OT as an argument for how to live today then use all of it, we can't pick and choose what we want to follow. If one follows the OT then they are not a Christian by simple definition, they are a Jew. Christians follow Christ.

 

[RANCE ADAMS]

Is all of the old testament invalid?

Yes it is invalid as far as how God expects His people to live today. God has given us new instructions through Jesus on how to live. Jesus was clear that His way was different from the teachings God gave the Hebrews/Jews. Just study Leviticus, Numbers, & Deuteronomy. These are not principles of Jesus; therefore not applicable for God's people to follow today. We can't pick and choose certain examples or instructions in the OT to follow or not follow.

 

[RANCE ADAMS]

Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

.

Yes, that is correct; what does He mean by fulfill? Fulfilling the Law is bringing about a new way that was spoken of in the OT. He did fulfill those things but that does not mean He did not establish a different way in which God wants His people to live. We live differently, by different principles than we find in the OT. Jesus clearly spoke about some of these differences in how to live. This scripture in no way invalidates that God's instruction to His people today is through Jesus, not the prophets of the OT. If so then you must follow the commands and instructions found in the OT. Most prominent, as I stated before, can be found in Leviticus, Numbers, & Deuteronomy.

 

[RANCE ADAMS]

There is a lot more scripture in the OT that we can study to determine what God's moral principles are, besides the Law of Moses (aka. old covenant) that you refer to. To be sure those same principles will be found before the cross and after the cross.
So when Cain killed Abel we can determine that killing, in that case, looked a certain way and God said it was wrong and why it was wrong. God's moral principles or law.
In your last sentence I'm not sure who you are referring to as being 'us' and 'we'. But that is a different topic not included in this discussion.

Jesus showed us God's morals. Some of God's morals found in the OT are most definitely exhibited and proclaimed in the life of Jesus. Some of what God expected from His people in the OT were not taught by Jesus. When I refer to "us" or "we" I'm talking about Christians; which I would think is on topic as this is a Christian forum. If I've made some statements not on topic I'm unaware of that and will be glad to refrain from further off topic comments. I just ask for a explanation so I can be sure to adhere to the topic. Thank you