Thou Shall not Kill Or Murder

[Jim Parker]

Here's an opinion:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1863710833671764

 

[th1b.taylor]

I assume you have a deep desire and commitment for God. Because of that I genuinely appreciate you and your verbal engagement; therefore my disagreement is obviously not with you personally because I don't know you, only the ideas that you hold.

THERE IS NOT ONE VERSE WHICH TELLS, AUTHORIZES, EXPECTS CHRISTIANS TO ATTACK AN ATTACKER, IT SIMPLY IS ONLY IN THE MINDS OF MEN NOT THE WORD’S OF GOD FOR CHRISTIANS.

YOU ARE MAKING A DOCTRINE FROM GOD THAT IS NOT THERE. GOD DID NOT SAY TO KILL ATTACKERS OF OTHER PEOPLE. IT IS BLASPHEMOUS TO IMPOSE A COMMAND THAT GOD DID NOT ORDAIN. THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE TO PROVE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING MUST BE DONE. YOU ARE PUTTING WORDS IN GOD’S MOUTH WHICH IS DANGEROUS.

'What you cited there had nothing to do with dealing with evil.'

You are blatantly denying clear specific scripture. I honestly don’t know what else to do. These forums should be for people willing to study. It is up to each person to study, meditate and think critically upon God’s Word. None of us can post every single point that needs to be made to back up an argument. It takes all of us to study the scriptures. My views I know are in the minority, I also know because they are in the minority I have had to study extensively to defend them. Not just on forums but in front of people, which is a much better way to communicate any idea. Just for the record I am not associated with any organization or person JW, Mormons, Catholics, Martin Luther, John Wesley, John Calvin, John Smith, Anabaptists, etc. My allegiance is to and authority is from God's Word alone

Every single argument I’ve read I’ve heard dozens of times and have honestly studied them. We too easily bring our preconceived ideas into our study of God’s Word and that does not lead us to the truth.

Below I have highlighted scripture (that I have already posted) to prove the idea that you incorrectly stated that “what you cited had nothing to do with dealing with evil.”

Ephesians 6:10-20 .... Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm...
IS THE DEVIL NOT EVIL?

1 Thessalonians 5:12….. See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people....
DO NOT REPAY EVIL WITH EVIL, WHERE DOES EVIL COME FROM, PEOPLE?
DIRECT INSTRUCTION TO ABSTAIN FROM EVERY FORM OF EVIL

Romans 12 & 13 Don’t be conformed to this world; Bless those who persecute you; Never pay back evil for evil to anyone; Never take your own revenge, wrath belongs to God; If enemy is hungry feed him, thirsty, give drink; Overcome evil with good
ARE THERE 2 ABSOLUTES IN THIS SCRIPTURE “NEVER” & “ANYONE”? YES

Romans 12:14-21… Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. “But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Matthew 5:38-48 ….But I say to you, love your enemies …
Matthew 5:39 "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person..."
Matthew 10:21-…. But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next;…
WHAT IS THE DIRECT INSTRUCTION, NOT TO RETALIATE BUT TO FLEE.

SCRIPTURE I DID NOT POST​

Philippians 2:1-8 …. Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
OTHERS ARE TO BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OURSELVES. BE CAREFUL NOT TO USE SCRIPTURE TO DRAW CONCLUSIONS THAT AREN’T THERE NOR TO CONTRADICT OTHER SCRIPTURE. BY THIS I MEAN THESE VERSES D NOT SOMEHOW GIVE US AUTHORITY TO HARM OR KILL CERTAIN PEOPLE TO PROTECT OTHERS. AGAIN YOU ARE MAKING YOURSELF THE JUDGE AS TO WHAT SOUL IS WORTHY OF DEATH AND NO ONE HAS THAT AUTHORITY.

1 Peter 4:12-19 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation. If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler;...
GOD NEVER MAKES A DISTINCTION REGARDING US LOVING OUR ENEMY BASED UPON WHAT THEY ARE DOING, E.G. HARMING US OR HARMING ANOTHER PERSON. NO DISTINCTION, WE TREAT OUR ENEMY THE SAME. AGAIN NOT MY WORDS, SIMPLY WHAT IS FOUND IN THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS.

John 16:1-4 ...They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. These things they will do because they have not known the Father or Me. But these things I have spoken to you, so that when their hour comes, you may remember that I told you of them. These things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you.
NO MENTION OF FIGHTING WHEN THEY ARE TRYING TO BE KILLED

Romans 5:6-10 .....But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were ENEMIES we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
AS FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST HOW CAN WE ARGUE TO KILL SOMEONE WHEN NOT ONLY DID GOD NOT KILL US WHEN WE WERE HIS ENEMY HE ACTUALLY DIED FOR US, THROUGH JESUS?

2 Corinthians 10:1-6 By the humility and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul,who am “timid” when face to face with you, but “bold” toward you when away! I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some ...
...If you want to use God's commands to His people in the OT regarding killing then explain where God instructs us today when to kill/attack, where, how to kill/attack, who to kill/attack etc. God was specific to His people in the OT. Using your same reasoning then explain how we are to know what God wants from us now regarding this?

In a single facet of the endless facets of The Most High you have hinted at the problem with your proposed misunderstanding of YHWH. All of your data (Scriptural References) you have avoided all mention of the Jewish Bible, the Old Testament, the very Bible Jesus, YHWH in the flesh of a man, taught us Christianity. He taught us how to, not interpret but rather to understand how the Covenants merge into one another and to cease doing Satan's work for him by further dividing the Word of God into more distant segments.

YHWH is one Triune Being and as declared in Malachi 3:6a the truth that He alone never changes and there-in lays the fault of this Errant Theology you, admit it or not, You do preach here.

 

[RANCE ADAMS]

Are you suggesting that they are not the same God?
Are you suggesting that God changes?

Exactly how has God's message changed?

So then we can disregard the 10 commandments?
Can we also disregard Jesus' words? Mat 5:17-18 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Is all fulfilled? Did I miss the 2nd coming, the general resurrection, and the judgment?

Good and fair questions.

Same God.

Yes God changes. Most prominently and relevant to this discussion is His forgiveness and His instructions to us.

I'ts very clear how God's message has changed and I have addressed this in posts #234 & #235. Jesus is where we find the changed message of God. God even changed His message in the OT. Different messages: Adam/Eve, Abraham, Moses, God has changed His mind, etc.

Yes, we can disregard the 10 commandments in and of themselves; however, Jesus addressed most of those principles and we are to follow what Jesus taught. He addressed them with: Love God, love your neighbor; this covers 9 of them. As Christians we don't keep the Sabbath holy the way God said to.

No we don't disregard the words in Matthew 5. Fulfilling the Law and Prophets does not mean they are to be followed by Christians. It is true Jesus did not destroy them. Jesus was the fulfillment of the Prophets. Jesus taught a new way. Jesus fulfilled the Law by abiding by it, following it perfectly along with being the ultimate sacrificial Lamb once and for all. This fulfilled the Law, it did not abolish it. I can't give a comprehensive explanation at this time; however one of the issues is understanding the true meaning of "destroy" & "fulfill". The main point is the Old Law was not perfect and Jesus made it perfect when He fulfilled it and through His teachings He showed the new way of having a relationship with God.

Again, what do you do with all that is commanded in Leviticus, Numbers, & Deuteronomy. Please answer this. Do you follow those commands? If not, why and on what basis do you not follow them? If you follow some of the OT on what basis do you determine what you follow and what you do not follow?

Yes all is fulfilled as it relates to man's reconciliation to God which never needs to be changed or acted upon again because of Jesus and His fulfillment of God's plan after we transgressed in the Garden of Eden. Jesus has not returned a second time

 

[Jim Parker]

Yes God changes.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I do not change;
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
We talking about the same God?

 

[RANCE ADAMS]

Here's an opinion:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1863710833671764

No, I don't support the death penalty in any situation. I would have no part of it. I've read stories of Christians who were families of victims that have requested no death penalty for the murderer. A state could put the criminal in prison and not kill them and give them a longer chance of accepting Christ. Isn't that what all Christians should want. Killing someone prematurely gives them less time to accept Jesus, how is that loving or Christian. Leaving them in prison for life is potentially better for their eternal soul.

 

[Razeontherock]

No, I don't support the death penalty in any situation. I would have no part of it. I've read stories of Christians who were families of victims that have requested no death penalty for the murderer. A state could put the criminal in prison and not kill them and give them a longer chance of accepting Christ. Isn't that what all Christians should want. Killing someone prematurely gives them less time to accept Jesus, how is that loving or Christian. Leaving them in prison for life is potentially better for their eternal soul.

Leaving them to rot for a life sentence is WORSE for the soul, inhumane in many cases, an expense we can't afford, and how long does it take to repent? No way will the US Court system be quicker than that.

 

[Razeontherock]

Here's an opinion:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1863710833671764

Well done. My only exception to his claims are "with modern forensic and DNA evidence it is virtually impossible to execute an innocent man."

That needs to be qualified: "in some cases we can be 100% certain of guilt." Without that high standard of evidence, capital punishment shouldn't be an option, IMHO.

 

[Jim Parker]

That needs to be qualified: "in some cases we can be 100% certain of guilt." Without that high standard of evidence, capital punishment shouldn't be an option, IMHO.

I think what DNA evidence has provided is definitive proof that a suspect could not have committed the crime.
The standards for a conviction are very high.
And man is still flawed - not all cops and prosecutes are honest.

 

[RANCE ADAMS]

Leaving them to rot for a life sentence is WORSE for the soul, inhumane in many cases, an expense we can't afford, and how long does it take to repent? No way will the US Court system be quicker than that.

A life time of misery on earth is nothing compared to an eternity separated from God. The cost of keeping someone in prison should be of no consequence if it allows someone time to eventually come to accept Jesus, to say otherwise is cold and hard hearted. The time it takes to repent is unknown, any amount of time, and it doesn’t matter to God. The view you express does not possess the forebearance, humility, and love that I see God giving every man to come to Him.

 

[Razeontherock]

I think what DNA evidence has provided is definitive proof that a suspect could not have committed the crime.
The standards for a conviction are very high.
And man is still flawed - not all cops and prosecutes are honest.

Yes, when we have it DNA evidence can exonerate the innocent. Proving guilt is somewhat less knowable in many cases; I don't think circumstantial evidence should be enough for capital punishment. I'd like to see Prosecutors cautious with that as an option.

 

[Razeontherock]

A life time of misery on earth is nothing compared to an eternity separated from God. The cost of keeping someone in prison should be of no consequence

.

Unrealistic platitudes. Have you looked at the size of our National debt? This "no consequence" idea is as realistic as Unicorns. Look around at the people that are hurting, and in NEED, that have never hurt anyone, and are completely innocent.

Priorities are a fact of life. Budgetary concerns matter. If it's impractical, if you can't fund it, it's a horrible idea. We can't afford our current prison population, which happens to be the highest per capita of any place we'd like to consider as being 'civilized.' The worst element of this population perverts the rest and does not deserve $48,000 a year, which would keep 10 others out of extreme poverty and a likely life of crime.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Good and fair questions.

Same God.

Yes God changes. Most prominently and relevant to this discussion is His forgiveness and His instructions to us.

I'ts very clear how God's message has changed and I have addressed this in posts #234 & #235. Jesus is where we find the changed message of God. God even changed His message in the OT. Different messages: Adam/Eve, Abraham, Moses, God has changed His mind, etc.

Yes, we can disregard the 10 commandments in and of themselves; however, Jesus addressed most of those principles and we are to follow what Jesus taught. He addressed them with: Love God, love your neighbor; this covers 9 of them. As Christians we don't keep the Sabbath holy the way God said to.

No we don't disregard the words in Matthew 5. Fulfilling the Law and Prophets does not mean they are to be followed by Christians. It is true Jesus did not destroy them. Jesus was the fulfillment of the Prophets. Jesus taught a new way. Jesus fulfilled the Law by abiding by it, following it perfectly along with being the ultimate sacrificial Lamb once and for all. This fulfilled the Law, it did not abolish it. I can't give a comprehensive explanation at this time; however one of the issues is understanding the true meaning of "destroy" & "fulfill". The main point is the Old Law was not perfect and Jesus made it perfect when He fulfilled it and through His teachings He showed the new way of having a relationship with God.

Again, what do you do with all that is commanded in Leviticus, Numbers, & Deuteronomy. Please answer this. Do you follow those commands? If not, why and on what basis do you not follow them? If you follow some of the OT on what basis do you determine what you follow and what you do not follow?

Yes all is fulfilled as it relates to man's reconciliation to God which never needs to be changed or acted upon again because of Jesus and His fulfillment of God's plan after we transgressed in the Garden of Eden. Jesus has not returned a second time

What you are teaching here is either incorrect or portions of the scriptures are not the Words of YHWH. Now if the passages wgere our LORD proclaims He never changes are the words of created beings, what other words in His Eternally Protected, by Him,are also false. More importantly, what is true and how do we know, who is able to stand in for this mystical god to divide te truth from the lies?

For the nonChristian and for those, we call, babes in the faith, this is not a fight between Christians. Although that charge can easily be seen in this exchange, on close examination, it is simply and clearly exposed as an exchange of Godly Good verses Evil from thhe mouth of Satan with Prayer to the Most Holy One from a willingly submitted heart followed by Holy Spirit led Bible Study.

Like myself, you need not to be a Bible Scholar with years ad years of study ad have papers framed and hanging on a wall somewhere. No indeed, the God of Crdation, revealed in the Holy Scriptures will open your hearts to the Word of YHWH if and as soon as one becomes submissive to His Will, just as He did with this Eighth Grade Graduate.

it is clearly revealed to en that will submit their will t that of our Creator God's Will in:
International Standard Version 1Cor 2:
Instead, we speak about God's wisdom in a hidden secret, which God destined before the world began for our glory.

Please be careful and never listen to him nor to her that doese not speak from the scriptures and speaks without the address' of the scriptures they refer to. And if they do, find a clear and modern version such as the NASB, ISV or even NLT and put the scripture ack into it's context because I can prove just about anything by ripping some scripture or scriptures out of their context.

Please, check the words you hear of scripture and thdeir meaning by examing them from the Bible, even my words must be proof read.

 

[jasonc]

a life living in fear from being punished by prison justice over a reasonable death sentence after conviction. has one been in a solitary confinement for any time and see how little interaction you have and in prison, visitation nor mail is a right. if the inmates act up, you don't get to see you family and with mail. what ever you receive and send is liable to be search and if need be read by the guards, same with phone conversations. because of one idiot plotting crimes they will do this. I had to write in type letters or in black and white and also send photos in black and white and was told by the prision that my letters would be read by the guards to see if I was partaking in plotting of crimes and also if my letter had fentanyl. I wasn't worried as I knew what i said and sent was subject to search.

 

[Jim Parker]

I don't think circumstantial evidence should be enough for capital punishment. I'd like to see Prosecutors cautious with that as an option.

I suspect they are.

 

[Razeontherock]

I suspect they are.

Not enough to keep innocent men off death row. All the objection to capital punishment I see is for this reason (with the exception of one poster here) and I see a clear cycle of harm because of it: the worst element in our prisons infects everyone else, costs money, and multiplies.

 

[Jim Parker]

Not enough to keep innocent men off death row. All the objection to capital punishment I see is for this reason (with the exception of one poster here) and I see a clear cycle of harm because of it: the worst element in our prisons infects everyone else, costs money, and multiplies.

I think there needs to be a realization that there are mistakes made and there is malfeasance done.

In the case of mistakes, I note that here in the People's Socialist Republic of California, a person convicted of murder and sentenced to death still has a life expectancy of 10 to 20 years before all the appeals, retrials, and processes have been exhausted. That indicates to me that the system does very much bend over backwards to prevent and discover mistakes and to correct them as best they can.

And, no,it's not OK to spend 20 years in prison because of other people's mistakes.

There is also the instances where the authorities (police, et. al.) intentionally present false evidence and/or prevent exculpating evidence from being presented in order to "railroad" someone or just to close a case.
An example of official evidence tampering is seen in the murder of Bobby Kennedy when the man convicted of the crime, Sirhan Sirhan, allegedly shot 9 rounds, without reloading, from a revolver with a 6 round capacity. It was determined that he was the sole shooter and all the evidence which might prove differently (wall moldings with bullet holes, etc.) has been mysteriously lost. (Like all the rubble from the Oklahoma City bombing which was also blamed on a single man in spite of evidence to the contrary.)

I would be very much in favor of the Biblical remedy that, if it can be proven that witnesses swore falsely, they would suffer the penalty which they had hoped to be inflicted on the falsely accused person.

It is my belief that capital punishment is the will of God for the purpose of purging evil from society and that God is well aware that we are fallible.

It is also my view that eliminating the death penalty cheapens the life of victims and lessens the punishment's effectiveness in deterring crime and, in fact, may allow the crimes to continue both inside and outside of prison. A good example of the is leaders of the Aryian Brotherhood, Barry Mills and Tyler Bingham, who are serving a life sentence and continues to run the organization from within the walls of the prison ordering murders of individuals and even entire families as well as other prisoners who interfere with their drug enterprise. So, when they went to prison, their murders did not cease.

I don't believe that the average citizen has the slightest grasp of the extent and depth of evil that possesses these people. Having them serve life sentences is a guarantee that more people will be murdered.


iakov the fool

 

[Razeontherock]

Yes, my main focus is on our systemic problems. Part of that is the way the system itself is gamed by criminals. Those within the system tolerate this, for reasons.
It means we don't have as secure a holding facility as we think, and by extension that same rationale should be applied to what's going on currently at our southern border.

When "the system" means it's cheaper to keep Dylan Roof alive behind bars for the rest of his life, (age 19 - 89?) at about 48k / year, than it would be to give him a speedy trial and execution if that's the sentence,
then that system is broken.

Some try to re-state my position as wanting to re-write the laws such that more people get killed. That is the converse of my position. Everything I've said places additional burden upon the State before capital punishment can become an option. Then, for those very few that meet those hyper-stringent qualifiers and are sentenced to death we know it is done so justly, and can be carried out in a merciful and expedient fashion.

It's the only way I see to fix this very broken situation.

 

[RANCE ADAMS]

Unrealistic platitudes. Have you looked at the size of our National debt? This "no consequence" idea is as realistic as Unicorns. Look around at the people that are hurting, and in NEED, that have never hurt anyone, and are completely innocent.

Priorities are a fact of life. Budgetary concerns matter. If it's impractical, if you can't fund it, it's a horrible idea. We can't afford our current prison population, which happens to be the highest per capita of any place we'd like to consider as being 'civilized.' The worst element of this population perverts the rest and does not deserve $48,000 a year, which would keep 10 others out of extreme poverty and a likely life of crime.

Doesn't really matter when it comes to the eternal place of a soul; yet statically it is cheaper to keep someone in prison for life than to sentence one to the death penalty. Again, Christians should not be making decisions regarding the soul of an individual based upon monetary value.

 

[Razeontherock]

Doesn't really matter when it comes to the eternal place of a soul; yet statically it is cheaper to keep someone in prison for life than to sentence one to the death penalty. Again, Christians should not be making decisions regarding the soul of an individual based upon monetary value.

Life in prison helps the soul?!? That notion is even LESS realistic than your previous flight of fancy.

Statistics have nothing to do with the cost to execute a sentence of capital punishment, that is merely a symptom of a BROKEN SYSTEM.

Look how easy it is to fix:

the cost is legal. The appeals process. Why is it mandated? Because death sentences are given with no expectation of ever being carried out. So there's no deterrent value. And there's not nearly enough scrutiny to make sure we don't have an innocent man.

Change the circumstances under which the death penalty is a possibility. Make SURE of guilt. That removes most cases right there. Then make sure it's someone who will never be rehabilitated and accepted back into free society.
Further restrict it to someone who can never contribute to society, meaning more than paying their keep.

Someone meeting all these conditions, for a crime that deserves the death penalty to begin with, can be executed mercifully after a speedy trial for the cost of one rope Nationwide, forever.
Eliminate these people from our prison system and the souls of everybody else have a much better chance of experiencing God's goodness that leads to repentance.

Leave them where they are and they pervert everyone they come in contact with. There is a reason God gave human governments power to execute, and your concerns expressed here don't override that.

 

[WIP]

Life in prison helps the soul?!? That notion is even LESS realistic than your previous flight of fancy.

Statistics have nothing to do with the cost to execute a sentence of capital punishment, that is merely a symptom of a BROKEN SYSTEM.

Look how easy it is to fix:

the cost is legal. The appeals process. Why is it mandated? Because death sentences are given with no expectation of ever being carried out. So there's no deterrent value. And there's not nearly enough scrutiny to make sure we don't have an innocent man.

Change the circumstances under which the death penalty is a possibility. Make SURE of guilt. That removes most cases right there. Then make sure it's someone who will never be rehabilitated and accepted back into free society.
Further restrict it to someone who can never contribute to society, meaning more than paying their keep.

Someone meeting all these conditions, for a crime that deserves the death penalty to begin with, can be executed mercifully after a speedy trial for the cost of one rope Nationwide, forever.
Eliminate these people from our prison system and the souls of everybody else have a much better chance of experiencing God's goodness that leads to repentance.

Leave them where they are and they pervert everyone they come in contact with. There is a reason God gave human governments power to execute, and your concerns expressed here don't override that.

The appeals process is mandated? I've never heard that before. Doesn't it require that the defendant needs to request an appeal and then a judge determines if his/her appeal will be heard?