Thou Shall not Kill Or Murder

[RANCE ADAMS]

Life in prison helps the soul?!? That notion is even LESS realistic than your previous flight of fancy.

Statistics have nothing to do with the cost to execute a sentence of capital punishment, that is merely a symptom of a BROKEN SYSTEM.

Look how easy it is to fix:

the cost is legal. The appeals process. Why is it mandated? Because death sentences are given with no expectation of ever being carried out. So there's no deterrent value. And there's not nearly enough scrutiny to make sure we don't have an innocent man.

Change the circumstances under which the death penalty is a possibility. Make SURE of guilt. That removes most cases right there. Then make sure it's someone who will never be rehabilitated and accepted back into free society.
Further restrict it to someone who can never contribute to society, meaning more than paying their keep.

Someone meeting all these conditions, for a crime that deserves the death penalty to begin with, can be executed mercifully after a speedy trial for the cost of one rope Nationwide, forever.
Eliminate these people from our prison system and the souls of everybody else have a much better chance of experiencing God's goodness that leads to repentance.

Leave them where they are and they pervert everyone they come in contact with. There is a reason God gave human governments power to execute, and your concerns expressed here don't override that.

Life in prison helps the soul?!?
I'm not convinced you put much thought into my points and if you do, you completely mis-characterize what I say. I'ts sad if anyone thinks this temporary life of misery is worse or equal to eternal misery. An individual has more of an opportunity to repent and to stand justified in God's eyes the longer they live, just a fact. You are making arguments based upon human worldly reasoning. I'm trying to make arguments based upon God's reasoning. I personally know 1 murderer who turned to Jesus and became a preacher when he got out of prison. Also look at Paul, his example of killing Christians and then what became of him. We can't make such blanket statements that certain people are to be thrown away by executing them thus making society better. That in no way is Christ's way. Again if you want to argue economics it's a fact it costs more in America to execute someone than give them a life sentence.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Doesn't really matter when it comes to the eternal place of a soul; yet statically it is cheaper to keep someone in prison for life than to sentence one to the death penalty. Again, Christians should not be making decisions regarding the soul of an individual based upon monetary value.

And that is your opinion. period! You are neither acting nor reacting as one of the Brethren but rather, very World-Like! Some here are attempting carry on a Christian based discussion, well, until you stuck your right foot into your mouth, murdered the string your, yet to be founded opinions because this is/was a discussion of YHWH's Will and the follower's need or lack thereof to submit to His Perfect will.

None, neither we nor YHWH are willing to live by the will of Satan, the will you are espousing. If it is not as I have enumerated here, Prove your point with the scriptures and begin labeling your post, somewhere in the title or the text as IMO and those Grounded in the Faith, here, will draw one more Cool Glass of Iced Tea, laugh, then cry about the destination you would, by default, to spend Eternity in and warn the New in the Faith and Sunday School Children about you.

I and ROR have addressed both the issue and your opinion, straight from the Bible and it is time for you to be honest!

The appeals process is mandated? I've never heard that before. Doesn't it require that the defendant needs to request an appeal and then a judge determines if his/her appeal will be heard?

Not in Texas, the process is mandated.

 

[WIP]

And that is your opinion. period! You are neither acting nor reacting as one of the Brethren but rather, very World-Like! Some here are attempting carry on a Christian based discussion, well, until you stuck your right foot into your mouth, murdered the string your, yet to be founded opinions because this is/was a discussion of YHWH's Will and the follower's need or lack thereof to submit to His Perfect will.

None, neither we nor YHWH are willing to live by the will of Satan, the will you are espousing. If it is not as I have enumerated here, Prove your point with the scriptures and begin labeling your post, somewhere in the title or the text as IMO and those Grounded in the Faith, here, will draw one more Cool Glass of Iced Tea, laugh, then cry about the destination you would, by default, to spend Eternity in and warn the New in the Faith and Sunday School Children about you.

I and ROR have addressed both the issue and your opinion, straight from the Bible and it is time for you to be honest!

Not in Texas, the process is mandated.

I thought we had a right to appeal, not a requirement. But, on further investigation I am wrong about that too. The constitution of the United States does not guarantee a right to appeal a court verdict. It only specifies that appeals courts can be set up. However, the constitution does guarantee our right to due process and in that way, when an appeal is made, the courts can't just deny it arbitrarily but must do so within the law. With that said, I suppose a state can mandate appeals even if the defendant doesn't want to appeal his/her case.

So, in Texas, if a defendant can't afford the mandated appeal, who pays for it?

 

[th1b.taylor]

I thought we had a right to appeal, not a requirement. But, on further investigation I am wrong about that too. The constitution of the United States does not guarantee a right to appeal a court verdict. It only specifies that appeals courts can be set up. However, the constitution does guarantee our right to due process and in that way, when an appeal is made, the courts can't just deny it arbitrarily but must do so within the law. With that said, I suppose a state can mandate appeals even if the defendant doesn't want to appeal his/her case.

So, in Texas, if a defendant can't afford the mandated appeal, who pays for it?

LOL! I do. We don't have a state income tax but rather a Usury Tax on everything, so if one lives in Texas and is sent to Death Row, there is an automatic right to appeal it at the States expense. Karla Faye Tucker is the best example in my time.

She accepted Jesus in, I believe I remember, the Goree Unit in Huntsville. Her Death Penalty came as a result of her murdering her mom and dad in bed with a Pick-Ax.

In spite of her acceptance of Jesus as Savior and her understanding that she, righteously, deserved the needle in her arm, many of us thought she would die before the could carry out Justice because of all the appeals.

If we do not stop this Lunacy and submit our personal wills to the Supreme Will of YHWH we are going to be muddling around in knee deep waste of a Honey Wagon shoveling the waste in it out, trying to find s way to walk out of the mess.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Paul endorsed the government's GOD ORDAINED right to employ deadly force.
Rom 13:1-4 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities.
For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God,
and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil.
Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
For he is God’s minister to you for good.
But if you he do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain;
for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

And that person should not be a Christian.
It is a role for the world for it is the world that breaks the law.
The role of Christians is to fight the enemy with prayer and the Word of God, for the enemy is not flesh and blood.

 

[Jim Parker]

And that person should not be a Christian.

Why not?
Why shouldn't a Christian carry out God's will?

It is a role for the world for it is the world that breaks the law.

Oh! So, Christians never break the law? That's just not true. I have not yet met a Christian who was perfect. (Though I have read that some were just about there...)

The role of Christians is to fight the enemy with prayer and the Word of God, for the enemy is not flesh and blood.

We're not talking about the enemy.
We're talking about people who murder and are sentenced to death for their murder(s).
That they have murdered does not make them an "enemy" (that's the devil and his angels). It makes him a murderer and liable to the death penalty in accordance with God's will.

Gen 9:6 “Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; for in the image of God He made man."

And God does not change His opinion.

Mal 3:6a “For I am the LORD, I do not change;"

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Why not?
Why shouldn't a Christian carry out God's will?

Oh! So, Christians never break the law? That's just not true. I have not yet met a Christian who was perfect. (Though I have read that some were just about there...)

We're not talking about the enemy.
We're talking about people who murder and are sentenced to death for their murder(s).
That they have murdered does not make them an "enemy" (that's the devil and his angels). It makes him a murderer and liable to the death penalty in accordance with God's will.

Gen 9:6 “Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; for in the image of God He made man."

And God does not change His opinion.

Mal 3:6a “For I am the LORD, I do not change;"

If those quotes apply to you, then I ask, "are you Jewish living in Israel?"
Or can you quote New Testament verses can tell Christians to carry earthly weapons and use them?
And don't use the 2 swords in Luke.
That is the most misquoted verse in the Bible for pro-gunners.

 

[Jim Parker]

If those quotes apply to you, then I ask, "are you Jewish living in Israel?"

That question is irrelevant.
Are you suggesting that the OT commands are only for Jews living in Israel?
For example:
Mat 22:36-40 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
So, because I am not a Jew living in Israel, I can ignore that? It's not for me?

Or can you quote New Testament verses can tell Christians to carry earthly weapons and use them?

Yes. Luk 22:36
One wonders: Why would anyone purchase and carry a weapon if he had no intention to ever use use it under any circumstances?

And don't use the 2 swords in Luke.

Why not? Because it records Jesus words specifically telling HIs disciples to sell their clokes and buy swords and is, therefore, a clear rebuttal of your position?

That is the most misquoted verse in the Bible for pro-gunners.

Exactly how is it misquoted?

 

[Razeontherock]

Life in prison helps the soul?!?
I'm not convinced you put much thought into my points and if you do, you completely mis-characterize what I say.

It is not possible to mischaracterize via a question.

Is it possible for you to answer?

I'ts sad if anyone thinks this temporary life of misery is worse or equal to eternal misery. An individual has more of an opportunity to repent and to stand justified in God's eyes the longer they live, just a fact. You are making arguments based upon human worldly reasoning. I'm trying to make arguments based upon God's reasoning.

You're demonstrating an inability to answer a simple question, which does not further discussion. Neither are you operating on God's reasoning: Jeremiah 29:13
Psalm 138:3
Lamentations of Jeremiah 3:57


If you're going to try to twist Scripture to make it support your political views, you're simply not going to get away with that with the crowd here. You are amongst those that know God!

it's a fact it costs more in America to execute someone than give them a life sentence.

Because our system is broken

 

[Razeontherock]

I thought we had a right to appeal, not a requirement. But, on further investigation I am wrong about that too. The constitution of the United States does not guarantee a right to appeal a court verdict. It only specifies that appeals courts can be set up. However, the constitution does guarantee our right to due process and in that way, when an appeal is made, the courts can't just deny it arbitrarily but must do so within the law. With that said, I suppose a state can mandate appeals even if the defendant doesn't want to appeal his/her case.

So, in Texas, if a defendant can't afford the mandated appeal, who pays for it?

It's not just Texas that the system is thoroughly broken. I understand a little bit about what the appeals process is and isn't for. The way it's used wrt capital punishment is a travesty! Which is why I say the first thing to do to fix the situation is to raise the standard of evidence required to even be able to recommend capital punishment.

 

[Jim Parker]

I thought we had a right to appeal, not a requirement. But, on further investigation I am wrong about that too. The constitution of the United States does not guarantee a right to appeal a court verdict. It only specifies that appeals courts can be set up. However, the constitution does guarantee our right to due process and in that way, when an appeal is made, the courts can't just deny it arbitrarily but must do so within the law. With that said, I suppose a state can mandate appeals even if the defendant doesn't want to appeal his/her case.

So, in Texas, if a defendant can't afford the mandated appeal, who pays for it?

The taxpayer pays for it.
There was a man who was convicted of multiplecounts of kidnapping, torture, rape and murder of young boys. He was on "death row" for 21 years (last I heard about a decade ago). That is longer than the lives of the boys he tortured, raped and murdered.

 

[RANCE ADAMS]

It is not possible to mischaracterize via a question.

Is it possible for you to answer?



You're demonstrating an inability to answer a simple question, which does not further discussion. Neither are you operating on God's reasoning: Jeremiah 29:13
Psalm 138:3
Lamentations of Jeremiah 3:57


If you're going to try to twist Scripture to make it support your political views, you're simply not going to get away with that with the crowd here. You are amongst those that know God!


Because our system is broken

I don't understand your numerous question marks and explanation point if your'e not making a statement with your question; however, I'll answer: I don't see how life in prison helps the soul. Also I don't understand why you're asking me this question if you're not mischaracterizing my points. I don't see the reasoning behind the question. As I've stated before, the longer we live the longer we have to accept Jesus and be saved.

There's nothing political about my arguments. In fact it is just the opposite. I'm simply responding to arguments that are worldly and political. My points are based upon God's Word. What these worldly governments do is their business, not mine nor Christians' main concern as Jesus told us that we belong to a different kingdom. As long as the state doesn't demand me to disobey God then I follow the state.

Please make supporting arguments that prove that I'm twisting scripture. I have studied for years reluctantly setting aside my personal natural desires when it comes to many issues especially this one. It's all of our choices to follow our own desires or to deny ourselves and follow Christ.

I will make one point about our government, yes I see many things that need changing and are very much broken. Christ established His church, which is simply the group of His followers, to be an encouragement and positive influence in this world. This is the organization I focus on and expect to make change and positively affect our society, not the state. They have their own agenda and responsibilities which are different from our Spiritual kingdom.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

That question is irrelevant.
Are you suggesting that the OT commands are only for Jews living in Israel?
For example:
Mat 22:36-40 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
So, because I am not a Jew living in Israel, I can ignore that? It's not for me?

Yes. Luk 22:36
One wonders: Why would anyone purchase and carry a weapon if he had no intention to ever use use it under any circumstances?

Why not? Because it records Jesus words specifically telling HIs disciples to sell their clokes and buy swords and is, therefore, a clear rebuttal of your position?

Exactly how is it misquoted?

Jim Parker, where have you been the two years on this forum.
I have used my rebuttal on every pro gun thread in that time.
It's just that when you hear something you don't want to hear, you ignore it and forget about it quickly.

So let's start again.
Why is that the only verse in the New Testament that talks about weapons?

Why did he tell them all to get swords, yet when Peter came back with only two, Jesus said "that's enough"?
Luke 22:37-38;
"It is written: And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching it's fulfillment.
The disciples said, see Lord, here are two swords. That is enough he replied."

Jesus wasn't just placed between two transgressors, he was numbered with them.
Numbered; 1, 2, 3.
He was numbered as a transgressor.
Why?
Because he had two swords, and one was put to use.
After it was done, Jesus said "That is enough".
And he healed the guy with the cut off ear.

Jesus never had intentions of fighting the enemy with physical force, he simply had to fulfill a prophecy about him.
(Isaiah 53:12;).
Jesus himself was responsible for that verse to be in the Bible.
If you don't understand, you'll have to wait and join St. Pete's Bible class in heaven for an explanation.

No where else in the New Testament are Christians told to carry weapons.
Paul had 2 years under house arrest to put together a rebel force.
Jesus had 3 years of preaching to raise an army.
Instead, Jesus and Paul preached peace and the other writers in the New Testament support that.
The problem we have today is that most of us are Americans and we think God wants us to go out and kill the enemy, even if innocent people get caught in the middle and die.
No wonder everyone hates Americans.
We are rich, irrogant, and kill anyone at will.
We think terrorists are bad.
A lot of the world sees our entire nation as being terrorists.

4th of July
God bless America
Why?
We abort more than a million babies a year.

People need to take this killing thing and give it a rest.
Christians are called to peace, period.

 

[MarkT]

The state is the state and the church is the church. If you're going to go outside the church and pronounce judgment, you may be bringing down the wrath of God on yourself. Matthew 7:2
For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.

Prevent evil by doing evil. Who can argue with that? Might as well kill everyone then because man is evil. But Jesus taught do good. Forgive and you will be forgiven.

Killing in self defence sounds right. But if you want to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, you have to not kill, period. Mt. 5:38-48 So it's the principle (or the understanding) of the thing. We must be perfect, as Jesus said. Mt. 5:48 Repay no one evil for evil. Never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God. Romans 12:17-19

You would think Lot would have stood up for his daughters. But instead he offered up his daughters to be raped by the crowd. He didn't pronounce judgment on the men of Sodom. Lot feared God.

Is killing ever justified? I would say no. Not if you want to be perfect.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

LOL! I do. We don't have a state income tax but rather a Usury Tax on everything, so if one lives in Texas and is sent to Death Row, there is an automatic right to appeal it at the States expense. Karla Faye Tucker is the best example in my time.

She accepted Jesus in, I believe I remember, the Goree Unit in Huntsville. Her Death Penalty came as a result of her murdering her mom and dad in bed with a Pick-Ax.

In spite of her acceptance of Jesus as Savior and her understanding that she, righteously, deserved the needle in her arm, many of us thought she would die before the could carry out Justice because of all the appeals.

If we do not stop this Lunacy and submit our personal wills to the Supreme Will of YHWH we are going to be muddling around in knee deep waste of a Honey Wagon shoveling the waste in it out, trying to find s way to walk out of the mess.

This is a good example.
Many Christians around the country were rallying behind her but she never received a pardon from the Governor.
The Governor?
George Bush
This is a good example of a man claiming to be a Christian yet allows the killing of a child of God, one he knew was forgiven by God, because it was the politically correct thing to do.
And as he ran for president, how quickly and effectively the Republican Party pushed aside all mention of this from the press.
Politics is no place for a Christian, it is a worldly position for worldly people.

 

[jasonc]

The state is the state and the church is the church. If you're going to go outside the church and pronounce judgment, you may be bringing down the wrath of God on yourself. Matthew 7:2
For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.

Prevent evil by doing evil. Who can argue with that? Might as well kill everyone then because man is evil. But Jesus taught do good. Forgive and you will be forgiven.

Killing in self defence sounds right. But if you want to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, you have to not kill, period. Mt. 5:38-48 So it's the principle (or the understanding) of the thing. We must be perfect, as Jesus said. Mt. 5:48 Repay no one evil for evil. Never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God. Romans 12:17-19

You would think Lot would have stood up for his daughters. But instead he offered up his daughters to be raped by the crowd. He didn't pronounce judgment on the men of Sodom. Lot feared God.

Is killing ever justified? I would say no. Not if you want to be perfect.

So tempting a sinner to save you by use of lethal force is also a sin.

Drug addiction wants to quit you are selling him lawful product, he uses ,aND dies. No difference in the use of the force to save you.

Since the Government uses force to include any type violates the turn the cheek ,you can't recieve welfare,tanf ,etc.don't pay taxes aND the irs,local version will enter your residence, car ,place of work with force as a threat to arrest you,and collect.

Turn the other cheek implies no response threat from you or by proxy.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So tempting a sinner to save you by use of lethal force is also a sin.

Drug addiction wants to quit you are selling him lawful product, he uses ,aND dies. No difference in the use of the force to save you.

Since the Government uses force to include any type violates the turn the cheek ,you can't recieve welfare,tanf ,etc.don't pay taxes aND the irs,local version will enter your residence, car ,place of work with force as a threat to arrest you,and collect.

Turn the other cheek implies no response threat from you or by proxy.

Are you saying 'be a man of the world" instead of a Christian?

 

[MarkT]

So tempting a sinner to save you by use of lethal force is also a sin.

Drug addiction wants to quit you are selling him lawful product, he uses ,aND dies. No difference in the use of the force to save you.

Since the Government uses force to include any type violates the turn the cheek ,you can't recieve welfare,tanf ,etc.don't pay taxes aND the irs,local version will enter your residence, car ,place of work with force as a threat to arrest you,and collect.

Turn the other cheek implies no response threat from you or by proxy.

Not necessarily. The sinner in this case is doing the will of God though he doesn't know it. But God made him for his purpose. He might be an unbeliever, but in doing us good, God might save him.

 

[Jim Parker]

I have used my rebuttal on every pro gun thread in that time.

I'm not "pro-gun."
The term "Pro-gun" doesn't have any meaning. It's like being "pro-shovel" or "pro-hammer" or "pro-toothbrush." It's nonsense like most of the slogans that the left throws around.
I believe every human being has a God-given right to defend him/herself against people who would murder him/her.
That's what the book of Esther is about. It's why Jews have a holiday called "Purim."

Why is that the only verse in the New Testament that talks about weapons?

Because it's not that important.

He was numbered as a transgressor.
Why?
Because he had two swords, and one was put to use.

It was not a "transgression" to carry a sword.
The authorities judged Jesus and His followers to be transgressors because of their jealousy of HI,.
Luk 22:52-53 Then Jesus said to the chief priests, captains of the temple, and the elders who had come to Him, “Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs? When I was with you daily in the temple, you did not try to seize Me. But this is your hour, and the power of darkness.”
So, it was the Saddusees, Pharisees and scribes who "numbered Jesus among transgressors" of the Law of Moses because Jesus had a habit of healing people on the Sabbath which they considered a transgression of the Law of Moses.

Jesus never had intentions of fighting the enemy with physical force,

Of course not. He came to seek and save what was lost (Luke 19:10) and to call sinners to repentance. (Luke 5:32)
I have never suggested that Jesus came to fight an army with physical force.

No where else in the New Testament are Christians told to carry weapons.

That is an argument from silence. It is basing a doctrine on nothing.

Paul had 2 years under house arrest to put together a rebel force. Jesus had 3 years of preaching to raise an army.

And that is 100% irrelevant.
No one has suggested anything of the sort.

The problem we have today is that most of us are Americans and we think God wants us to go out and kill the enemy, even if innocent people get caught in the middle and die.

Speak for yourself.
I entertain no such absurd notion.

4th of July God bless America Why?
We abort more than a million babies a year.

That's an entirely different topic.

People need to take this killing thing and give it a rest. Christians are called to peace, period.

What "killing thing" is that?
I have no idea what you have in mind.
Christians are called to peace.
Christians are not called to allow murderers to slaughter them or to slaughter any other innocent people.

 

[MarkT]

Re. Luke 22 Everything had to happen exactly as it happened. The disciples said they had 2 swords. Jesus said it was enough. Enough for what? Enough for what took place next. Peter cut off the ear of the slave of the high priest. Jesus said 'no more of this' and 'Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword' Mt. 26:52 , and then he healed the ear. Then Jesus was arrested saying, 'this is your hour' and then he was crucified along side two transgressors, so what was written was fulfilled in him. ie. He would be reckoned with transgressors'.