True Acts 2:38 Christians will not go through the Great Tribulation

[Eugene]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

Those that belong to God and the lamb follow afterward at his coming on Earth. It's not hard, right?

Where do you see Jesus coming on earth; His throne will be in heaven (Rev 4:2). Are you referring to mount Sion, the heavenly Jerusalem? Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the first fruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-21

ForG1063 as in Adam all die, even so inG1722 Christ shall all be made alive.G2227 ButG1161(DE δέ A continuative!!!!!) every manG1538 inG1722 his ownG2398 order:G5001 ChristG5547 (the) firstfruits;G536 afterwardG1899 theyG3588 that are Christ'sG5547 atG1722 hisG848 coming.G3952
(1Co 15:22-23)

Is the Word "The" in the Actual Greek text, or added by the Translators? If it was suppose to be there, it would have read.

THE:
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to

It's NOT THERE!!!! Your adding it, not me.

All IN Christ tied with a Greek continutive in their order. Paul is not mentioning Christ over and over He told us in the passage above that Christ was first, then those IN Christ follow after in Order. The Lords Anointed firstfruit is First, then those after his coming.

Your adding words, and not reading simple language properly.

I suppose if you were told to run two test through the machine, the machines first test results to be set on table (A) and and those afterward on table (B) The machines first test on (A). You would not be able to understand those simple directions?

The boss would come back and find all the samples thrown on table (A) getting them mixed up.

Please stop twisting God's word, Brother Mike.

Your leaving out the scripture above it.............. those IN Christ and find me the Word the?? It's not me twisting the Word, your wanting to keep the text the translators added for clarification. You have yet to learn that those that translated the bible for us have added things in hopes to make it clear. I am surprised you did not know that yet.

Mat 1:1 The- Added!!! book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Rom 1:14 I amG1510 debtorG3781 bothG5037 to the Greeks,G1672 Just one word here!!!! Hellas....the rest added. andG2532 to the Barbarians;G915 bothG5037 to the wise,G4680 andG2532 to the unwise.G453

It's amazing, with all the knowledge you have and you never realized that to translate the scripture to English, they added English words where they felt (I take that lightly) to make things more clear. You never knew that.


Those IN Christ, In the Lord are first, then those that are HIS........... Not in,............... but just His, belong to God and the Lamb follow after at his coming.

There is a difference between being IN Christ, In the anointing and those that belong to God and the Lamb. One belongs to, the other is in, seated in heavenly places with Him.

Why is this not simple to read??

Mike.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

*Matt 27
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.


*the resurrection of the (saved) dead began when Jesus rose and continues till His return after the tribulation of false Christs

 

[JLB]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

Those IN Christ, In the Lord are first, then those that are HIS

I see the problem we are having now, it's a math problem.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

There is no use to try and and convince us through your extensive "knowledge" of lexicon gymnastics, until you get your "math" in order.

How many groups of people are there in verse 20.

I count two groups.

Group 1: the first fruits - Christ has become the first fruits.

Group 2: those who have fallen asleep - all His people who have died.


TWO GROUPS!

There is not a third group of people here, Mike, as you would have us believe.

What you are trying to twist God's word into, to make "your" pre-trib Rapture "theory" work is: Paul refers to three groups of people and not two.

Your version reads:

Group 1: Christ.

Group 2: The first fruits - This is a "special" group of Christians that gets Raptured before the Tribulation. [Courtesy of Brother Mike]

Group 3: afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.


Sorry Brother Mike, your special Greek female noun teaching rule just got shot down by a 2nd grade math lesson. haser


JLB

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

Brother Mike, you are trying to convince us that these souls who were beheaded for their witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, who didn't worship the beast nor his image, neither did they receive his mark, are in heaven because they were Raptured?

ughhhh. You know I am not. What I am saying is why God drops just two witness down that cause such great havoc and major headache for the Antichrist if we are also running around full of the Holy Spirit.
What do disciples of Christ do?


*why not? HE'S GOD HE can do as HE wants


Luk 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
Luk 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ, firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(1Co 15:22-23)

We been over this already......................... take notes so you don't forget what we already have talked about.

IN CHRIST we shall be made alive, every man in order................. Those IN Christ follow this order. Christ (The anointed) firstfruits, then those that are his at his coming.

IN CHRIST!!!!


*not according to matt 27 HE died rose and the graves opened and saints walked into the streets amen and we continue to rise to Him in our own order and will return WITH Him I thess 4:13-14,jude 1:14-15,rev 19




I don't want to have to keep telling you. Everyone that has part in the 1st Resurrection belong to Jesus. Those that are IN Christ, the Anointed church, the saved, Those Jesus produced first by Grace through faith. Then those that are his when He comes to earth.

We are not there!!!!! We are never mentioned during tribulation. No Church, No Gospel of Christ, No Brothers and Sisters, NOTHING!!!!! If the Church of the Lord Jesus was hanging out in Tribulation it would have been like the book of Acts. We would have been a part of some great things, going out in style.

*sure we are, were called saints who satan makes war against, were called the multitude, the martyrs,brethren etc we believers refuse to follow after satan's false Christs as Jesus told us not to in luke 21:8
satan adds "pre trib" to pauls words to lead many astray , to follow after the false Christs to him on the mount as whores of babylon instead of spiritual virgins waiting for the Bridegroom.



What does God do? He picks 144,000 virgin Jewish folks over us. Then he picks two, Just two witness that cause major havoc. Those are the human wittiness during Tribulation.


*the 144000 are from all the tribes not just judah, don't forget the gentiles also who make it out of the tribulation:
Revelation 7:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;




Revelation 7:13-17

King James Version (KJV)

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.








God needs 144,000 Jewish folk cause we turn stupid at the end and can't get the job done anymore? Is that why? You and I just become blubbering idiots and forget every ounce of scripture we know and are absolutely no use to God anymore during tribulation?

*those who become blubbering idiots are those who see and follow after the false Christs because some false prophet divined lies of pre trib rapture when Jesus Christ and paul both say HIS parousia and our gathering is after the tribulation/working of satan. matt 24:21-31,II thess 2:1-12 . Jesus makes it very plain in matt 13:30,36-43 the children of satan (tares) are gathered first NOT the church as satan wants many to think.



Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God

Avenge us Lord!!!!!

Luk_23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.


Are we in there screaming for vengeance, or would be asking God to have mercy?


*yet the martyrs ask How long

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

here we are, Hanging out in the throne room. We are coming back as Kings and Priest, redeemed from the Earth because of the Blood of Jesus.

We are not there!!!!

Mike.

* those killed for Jesus are and will be in heaven , we who according to HIS will who are alive and remain till HIS post trib parousia and our gathering will be refusing satan till the very end, betrayed by those who think satan and his angels is Jesus come to rapture them, beaten and delivered up to death/the devil yet we hold on and refuse to worship satan keeping our wedding garments undefiled

 

[Eventide]

Firstfruits...

Just for the biblical record... there are obviously many Christians (and Israelites) who are considered firstfruits.

1 Cor 16:15

I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints..

James 1:18

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Revelation 14:4

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

I count two groups.

Group 1: the first fruits - Christ has become the first fruits.

Group 2: those who have fallen asleep - all His people who have died.

No, wrong class. It is not a math problem. It's a understand simple English problem. English 101 even....


But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (Christ the first of everyone. You get this correct. A+!!!) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive, But every man in his own order: (Now Paul is going to mention everyone IN Christ and the Order they go in) Christ, firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(1Co 15:20-23)

Simple English. Not Math.

Jesus Christ the firstfruit of all the dead.
Those In Jesus Christ in this order. The Lord Jesus Christ First fruits (Those in Christ) then those that are His at his coming.

I already gave scripture that Jesus did produce fristfruits which is us. Paul is now telling us the Order of those In Him.

Simple English, not math. You keep Ignoring the scripture above about Those IN Christ after this Order. It was not written in scripture and verse, read it like you would a normal book. It's not hard.

James 1:18

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

We have to skip these verses because some here believe Jesus had no first fruits or produced anything...... Or it could be some Post Trib doctrine in the way, that causes issues with Reading.

Those in Christ, each man in his order. ................. ???? It baffles me!!! How is this not clear???


Mike.

 

[JLB]

Re: Firstfruits...

Just for the biblical record... there are obviously many Christians (and Israelites) who are considered firstfruits.

1 Cor 16:15

I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints..

James 1:18

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Revelation 14:4

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Amen, those were indeed first fruits of that work in that region. Amen for that.

However, we are discussing the resurrection from the dead, and so in that context, the resurrection from the dead, Christ is the first fruits, have received His glorified immortal body that will never die FIRST, before anyone else.

When He returns at the end of the age, on the last Day, then the rest of us will receive ours.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

I already gave scripture that Jesus did produce fristfruits which is us. Paul is now telling us the Order of those In Him.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.


How many groups of people are there in verse 20.

I count two groups.

Group 1: the first fruits - Christ has become the first fruits.

Group 2: those who have fallen asleep - all His people who have died.


Brother Mike, please answer this question -

How many groups of people are there in verse 20.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.


Please answer the question Brother Mike.


JLB

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

Group 1: the first fruits - Christ has become the first fruits.

Group 2: those who have fallen asleep - all His people who have died.[/quote]


what about group 3? - we who are alive and remain till His parousia?





We have to skip these verses because some here believe Jesus had no first fruits or produced anything...... Or it could be some Post Trib doctrine in the way, that causes issues with Reading.

Those in Christ, each man in his order. ................. ???? It baffles me!!! How is this not clear???


Mike.[/QUOTE]


what's baffling is how even though Jesus Christ teaches His parousia is after the tribulation men add "pre trib" to pauls words and try to change the timing Christ Jesus told us.

Matthew 24:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



paul quotes matt 24:30-31 below and not once does he say Jesus Christ comes before the tribulation or church:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

King James Version (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


aer=breath g109/g4151 spirit not g3772 sky



why does timing matter? because Jesus Christ warns before HIS parousia false Christs come claiming to be Him (matt 24:4-5,mark 13:5-6,luke 21:8) and for believers NOT to follow after them:





Matthew 24:21-28

King James Version (KJV)

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.




Luke 21:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.


why would Christ Jesus warn believers to not follow after the false Christs? where do they lead to?




2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


the false Christs lead to satan claiming to be God, if satan can trick one into thinking Jesus' parousia is before the tribulation many will be deceived when they see a false Christ with signs and lying wonders seducing away from the wedding to Jesus Christ.



why are so many purged as tares from the wheat:





10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness


two in the field, one taken first by satan while the other continues to labor for Jesus Christ

 

[JLB]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

I already gave scripture that Jesus did produce fristfruits which is us. Paul is now telling us the Order of those In Him.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.


How many groups of people are there in verse 20.

I count two groups.

Group 1: the first fruits - Christ has become the first fruits.

Group 2: those who have fallen asleep - all His people who have died.


Brother Mike, please answer this question -

How many groups of people are there in verse 20.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.


Please answer the question Brother Mike.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

How many groups of people are there in verse 20.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

One person.

We are doing good at this point. This is where our issue is at.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(1Co 15:22-23)

YLT:
for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
(1Co 15:22-23)

We have Christ (Jesus) mentioned first, then those "IN" Christ in their order. So the subject is now those IN Christ. Christ His firstfruits then those that belong to him afterward.

You keep wanting to mention Jesus over and over, but It's.

Jesus first of the dead. Then those IN Christ Jesus in this order. Those that are IN HIM and then those that are His.

Paul is going in order here. Wanting this to be Post Trib is stopping you from reading how this would be normally read

You also want to keep adding the Word "The" which is not even there.

So explain why you want to add the Word The.

And Explain why Paul is not mentioning those "IN Christ" in their order. Those produced anointed firstfruits, then those that are his afterward.

How are you switching the topic IN Christ in this order back to the first person Paul mentioned. How do you read things this way?

Mike.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Firstfruits...

Amen, those were indeed first fruits of that work in that region. Amen for that.

However, we are discussing the resurrection from the dead, and so in that context, the resurrection from the dead, Christ is the first fruits, have received His glorified immortal body that will never die FIRST, before anyone else.

When He returns at the end of the age, on the last Day, then the rest of us will receive ours.


JLB

Your original math problem statement appeared to be saying that Christ alone is the firstfruits.. which scripture clearly shows is not the case.

It's also interesting to note that the Israelites were commanded to bring the firstfruits into the house of the LORD...

This leads me back to the question I have asked and nobody cares to answer..

How does the marriage of the Lamb take place in heaven before the Lord comes ?

Do people actually believe that only some of the church is going to be there in heaven at the marriage of the Lamb... and that all the rest remain here until they come ?

 

[Eventide]

A marriage made in heaven...

Couple this with the story in Gen 24 concerning Abraham sending his eldest servant to find a bride for his only begotten son... and we see the direction of the church of God... and it's clearly toward where Isaac is, not where Rebekah is.

They meet in the field at eventide and Isaac takes her into his mother's tent... again, where Isaac is, not where Rebekah came from.

This notion that we're meeting the LORD in the air and then coming back here is not supported at all by this story. Then of course Rev 19 shows us as plain as day that there is a multitude in heaven, that the marriage of the Lamb is come.. and THEN His coming to destroy the beast and false prophet.

So far one person has shared why they believe that we're coming back to earth, and it's not based on anything biblical, but on some external idea which suggests that we're going to escort the LORD to earth.

So, anyone have any biblical evidence to show why they believe that we're meeting the LORD in the AIR and then coming back to earth ?

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: A marriage made in heaven...

How many groups of people are there in verse 20.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

One person.

We are doing good at this point. This is where our issue is at.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(1Co 15:22-23)

YLT:
for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
(1Co 15:22-23)

We have Christ (Jesus) mentioned first, then those "IN" Christ in their order. So the subject is now those IN Christ. Christ His firstfruits then those that belong to him afterward.

You keep wanting to mention Jesus over and over, but It's.

Jesus first of the dead. Then those IN Christ Jesus in this order. Those that are IN HIM and then those that are His.

Paul is going in order here. Wanting this to be Post Trib is stopping you from reading how this would be normally read

You also want to keep adding the Word "The" which is not even there.

So explain why you want to add the Word The.

And Explain why Paul is not mentioning those "IN Christ" in their order. Those produced anointed firstfruits, then those that are his afterward.

How are you switching the topic IN Christ in this order back to the first person Paul mentioned. How do you read things this way?

Mike.

Jesus Christ says in matt 24:29-31 HIS parousia is after the tribulation, paul says IF we also believe HE rose even so do we and return with HIM:


50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:






Brother it's not the post trib is keep us from reading; it's pre trib added to the scriptures keeping you from reading. now where does paul say Jesus' parousia is before the tribulation? nowhere in scripture ed! don't be alarmed





Jesus rose from the grave, the saints as believers rose also partaking in the First Resurrection and as believers that HE rose we also shall rise and be WITH HIM and return WITH HIM when HE returns after the tribulation :





Luke 23:39-44

King James Version (KJV)

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.




1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

King James Version (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
*the unsaved have no hope!



14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


*we who are alive and remain till HIS parousia can't precede them they are already there, the Lord says HIS parousia is after the tribulation as does paul in II thess 2:1-12. paul quotes matt 24:30-31 and ref. I cor 15 we meet the Lord in spritual bodies (aer=breath g109 breath=spiritg4151 not g3772 sky) :



16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


paul NEVER says the above passage is pre tribulation and doesn't mention the church yet we know as believerswe will be the ones joining Christ Jesus in the spirit just as be know it's we believers who will be betrayed beaten and delivered to death before this as Jesus says in matt 24 mark 13 luke 21 for refusing the false Christs who come before the this. the Lord warns believers of a event prior to what paul is speaking of which paul also warns of in II thess 2:1-12:



Now let's see the Lord's word:


Luke 21:8


8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.



Mark 13:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.



Matthew 24:4-5


4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:21-31

what's called a pre trib rapture IS the tribulation:


21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.


26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


paul quotes matt 24:30-31 the post trib rapture/gathering/harvest of wheat
if one falls away by believing the lie that Jesus comes before the tribulation they are looking to gather with the tares above instead of waiting as wise virgins for gathering with the wheat here:



29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Isaiah 61:1-3

the 1st advent:


61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,



*before the 2nd advent gathering Jesus and paul say the falling away,false Christs claim to be Jesus with signs and lying wonders leading to the working of satan claiming to be and shewing himself as if he is God with all power signs and lying wonders. matt 24:21-31, II thess 2:1-12 this is what false prophets call a pre trib rapture , a seducing away as whores of babylon away from the wedding
those who fall for this are "taken 1st while we who remain wait for matt 24:29-31



The 2nd advent

and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.



Jesus died in the flesh and rose again,so do we believers die and rise to HIM daily continuing to partake of the First resurrection until HIS post trib parousia and our gathering to HIM as HE says in matt 24:29-31 IF we believe HE died and rose again and we'd better!

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: A marriage made in heaven...

Jesus rose from the grave, the saints as believers rose also partaking in the First Resurrection and as believers that HE rose we also shall rise and be WITH HIM and return WITH HIM when HE returns after the tribulation :

Have you paid any attention to JLB and my post concerning the timing on this? No, I suppose not. You to busy fulling the page with scriptures.

We will save you all some left overs. I am sure there is a fridge somewhere in Heaven.

Mike.

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

Where do you see Jesus coming on earth; His throne will be in heaven (Rev 4:2). Are you referring to mount Sion, the heavenly Jerusalem? Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.

He has to come down and kick some butt. His appearing on Mt Sion in Rev 14 starting of the chapter would have to be the rest of the vision John Had in 7, then 14 telling us what is to come to prepare the Angels. Otherwise chapter 19 is a little hard to sort from him starting at Mt sion at the start of 14.

Mike.

 

[n2thelight]

Hey Watchmen

Glad you showed posted that Isaiah verse,will add something to it.....

Isaiah 61:1 "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; He hath sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;"

Isaiah 61:2 "To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;"

This is another duty of the Messiah when He came came in the first advent, "to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord". When we read Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 Jesus is proclaiming the acceptable year of His return, and those events that happen surrounding His return. This applies to Jesus' First Advent, where as the rest of the verse, "the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" is concerning His second advent. Christ's vengeance does not come until His second advent. Jesus spoke these words in Luke 4:18, 19.

Luke 4:17 "And there was delivered unto Him the book of the prophet Esaias [Isaiah 61:1]. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written,"

Luke 4:18 ""The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent me to heal the broken hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"

"He hath anointed me", the word "Christ" means the "Anointed One". The poor are the poor in spirit, those hungering for the gospel of Christ. Jesus Christ will preach deliverance to the captive immediately after the crucifixion and resurrection, then the spiritual eyes of many are opened to the truths of God's Word. It doesn't matter what has happened to you, Christ can set you at liberty for those bonds that hold you down, such as divorce, the loss of loved ones, or even when it seems like the whole world is against you. In Christ you become a new creature, and your salvation comes by our faith in Him and the repentance of your sins in Jesus name. Jesus Christ is our credentials before the throne of God, for the blood of Christ paid the price to give you that right, when you accept it. Then it gives you a destiny and purpose for living.

Luke 4:19 "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."

Notice that Jesus ended His reading half way through the verse, and He did not go on to say; "and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" and the rest of Isaiah 61. Jesus did not state those things because that is not the reason that He came to earth in the First Advent. There is a gap in this sentence between the two advents or comings of our Lord.
Jesus came to earth at the first advent to pay the price whereby you and I as sinners, could come to Him in repentance, and can find perfection in Him. Though we are not perfect, that part of Him that is in us, is perfect.
Jesus was quoting from this verse in Isaiah 61:1, 2, and that part of the schripture had been fulfilled.

Luke 4:20 "And he closed the book and He gave it again to the minister, and sat down, And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on Him."

Luke 4:21 "And He began to say unto them, "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

Jesus Christ told them that the reason that He could only read this far is that in His first advent, this would be the only part of Isaiah's prophecy that would be fulfilled. So these verses have what is termed as the gap theory, because there is a gap between the "acceptable year of the Lord", and "The day of vengeance of our God." That day of vengeance naturally falls on the day that Jesus Christ shall return to this earth and set up His Millennium Kingdom.
Isaiah gives us the prophecy of the two comings of Christ, while Luke 4:18-21 gives us the documentation of that prophecy being fulfilled.

Study written by Roger Christopherson

Christ was prophecised to come twice, not three or four times,this automatically makes the rapture a false doctrine....

 

[JLB]

Re: As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

Your original math problem statement appeared to be saying that Christ alone is the firstfruits.. which scripture clearly shows is not the case.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1Co 15:22-23)

Okay, I now have two of you who need to answer a simple question about 1 Corinthians 15:20.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Again, that's verse 20.

Not verse 19.

Not verse 21.

Not verse 22.

Not verse 23.

Verse 20.


How many categories or groups are there referenced in verse 20.


20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

So you don't have to waste alot of time looking for a calculator, I will give you the answer.

It's two.

There are two groups mentioned in verse 20.

1. - Christ who has become the first fruits.

2. - Those who have fallen asleep. - That means everyone else in the whole universe that is waiting for their resurrected, immortal bodies.


Now, if you know of a person besides Jesus who has received the resurrected, immortal body that will never die, then please point them out in scripture.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Re: Firstfruits...

How does the marriage of the Lamb take place in heaven before the Lord comes ?

It doesn't.

It takes place on earth, when Jesus returns.


JLB