Turn the other cheek ?

[follower of Christ]

This argument really goes nowhere.

For those who dont know a thing about scripture, I agree.
For those who understand the concept of CONTEXT, it certainly does.

While there are times when we need to remember that Jesus was talking to certain people,

Sorry gent but without CONTEXT I can use Christs words to demand $5000 from ANY Christian here and expect them to pay up.

the sermon on the mount is not one of them.

WRONG...
Jesus spoke about the JEWISH abuses of the law in the sermon on the mount, gent. He was speaking TO the Jews who had absorbed the vile teachings of their leadership and showing them the abuses.

Good grief....

 

[Drew]

Well, if my arguments have been "whomped", then perhaps you, or others who believe likewise, should bring any one of my arguments up and actually show how I am mistaken.

Stop wasting our time.
The readers can see THIS thread and they can read all those threads in my sig.

Well, why not make it easy for them - show them one of my arguments that have been "whomped". You routinely avoid backing up your claims when challenged on them.

Why is that?

 

[Drew]

You are playing games here to try to get from a tricky situation.

Get back to the TOPIC Drew or Ill report you...

Nothing would make me happier than to have you report me. Then perhaps the overworked mods would see what is going on here......

So, please, report me at your wish. I have treated you fairly and any "deviations" from the topic on my part are demonstrably response to something you have initiated.

As much as the mods may share your views, they have to deal with the facts of the thread. And the facts of thread are clear - I have behaved myself entirely.

 

[follower of Christ]

If we took your line of reasoning, no statements of Jesus could be deemed binding on us since all Jesus' teachings were directed to some person or set of persons.

And see, THIS is why you will never get it.
It ALL APPLIES WHEN IT IS APPLICABLE. ;)

I am willing to bet that no major theologian would argue that the sermon on the mount - with its "love your enemies" demand is not a universal teaching.

It certainly IS universal....no one said it WASNT....again youve simply read INTO someones statement something that ISNT there.
I said Jesus spoke from a CONTEXT....ie telling HATEFUL Jews to NOT HATE.
*IF* WE today ARE HATEFUL then Jesus' instruction is to US....got it yet drew ? ;)

 

[follower of Christ]

Well, why not make it easy for them - show them one of my arguments that have been "whomped". You routinely avoid backing up your claims when challenged on them.

links in my sig....read 'em....

 

[Drew]

This argument really goes nowhere.

For those who dont know a thing about scripture, I agree.
For those who understand the concept of CONTEXT, it certainly does.

Well,since you seem to be an expert in the scriptures can you identify one teaching that Jesus made that was not specifically addressing the situation of some person or set of persons from 2000 years ago?

Please accept the consequences of your line of reasoning - using your thinking we can claim that nothing Jesus said about "how to live" is relevant to us, since each such teaching was clearly directed at a specific set of persons, distinct from us?

 

[follower of Christ]

Well,since you seem to be an expert in the scriptures can you identify one teaching that Jesus made that was not specifically addressing the situation of some person or set of persons from 2000 years ago?

Please accept the consequences of your line of reasoning - using your thinking we can claim that nothing Jesus said about "how to live" is relevant to us, since each such teaching was clearly directed at a specific set of persons, distinct from us?

JESUS COMMANDED this, Drew....no exceptions provided

(Mat 5:42 KJV) Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

(Luk 6:30 KJV) Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

Im ASKING you for $5000, Drew.
You can pay me thru my Paypal account right now.

Lets see if you OBEY Jesus' CLEAR commands....or if you CONTEXT your way out of it because Jesus somehow doesnt mean YOU here and NOW ;)




.

 

[shad]

This man was willing to lay his own life down for his friends. What greater love is there?

This is secular concept. Jesus' followers dont harm or kill anyone to protect themselves and others.

Sorry gent but you cant make such a claim. We dont know EVERY act of Jesus or His disciples.

All violent supporters are politically correct. Politically correctness is secular concept. Jesus' followers has nothing to do with politics. Jesus' followers are not of this world. Do you need the verse?

Yes, FOC, you are playing games, tricky games. You can go on fore ever with this tricky games. I admire Drew's patience.

 

[follower of Christ]

All violent supporters are politically correct. Politically correctness is secular concept. Jesus' followers has nothing to do with politics.

Jesus' followers are not of this world. Do you need the verse?

What *WE* need is a verse from you that SAYS we cannot use weapons for self defense....especially seeing that Jesus made sure His disciples had a sword ;)

Yes, FOC, you are playing games, tricky games. You can go on fore ever with this tricky games.

I admire Drew's patience.

Friend, the ONLY reason drew is even still in this debate and hasnt walked away at this point is because the rules of this forum keep me from saying things that need to be said and apparently he has nothing else to do.

 

[follower of Christ]

.
Shad....is there a particular reason you are avoiding a response ?
You keep going on about how you obey Jesus commands...yet you are purposefully ignoring these two CLEAR ones

Jesus commandments are adequate enough ....

Lets test you on that shad.
ANY excuse you use to get out of OBEYING will expose the hypocrisy here entirely.

JESUS COMMANDED this....
[quote:3aphm462](Mat 5:42 KJV) Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

(Luk 6:30 KJV) Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

Im ASKING you for $5000, Shad.
You can pay me thru my Paypal account right now.

Lets see if you OBEY Jesus' CLEAR commands....or if you just expect everyone ELSE to obey YOUR distortion of commands He didnt actually make... ;)
[/quote:3aphm462]
Until you obey Jesus' CLEAR commandment (that He DID actually make) by paying up please dont waste our time pushing anything on us that He DIDNT say.
We'll understand if you dont feel to respond. However lack of response says quite enough...

.

.

 

[follower of Christ]

.
.
READERS TAKE NOTE...

Ive now asked both Drew AND Shad to simply OBEY the CLEAR commandment of our Lord Jesus by giving as HE has commanded His followers to give when ASKED.

In contrast NEITHER of them has provided a single word from scripture that says we cannot use a weapon to deter crime against our families or ourselves.

Why is it that drew and shad WONT obey CLEAR command, yet expect the REST OF US to obey some mythical "commandment" that they cannot even present to begin with ?

Drew seems to insist that every instruction in the NT is for everyone, everywhere at all times....so will drew OBEY the CLEAR command of Jesus to GIVE to EVERY man who asks of him......or will he find a way to context his way out of it ?

;)

.

 

[Drew]

Well,since you seem to be an expert in the scriptures can you identify one teaching that Jesus made that was not specifically addressing the situation of some person or set of persons from 2000 years ago?

Please accept the consequences of your line of reasoning - using your thinking we can claim that nothing Jesus said about "how to live" is relevant to us, since each such teaching was clearly directed at a specific set of persons, distinct from us?

JESUS COMMANDED this, Drew....no exceptions provided

(Mat 5:42 KJV) Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

(Luk 6:30 KJV) Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

Im ASKING you for $5000, Drew.
You can pay me thru my Paypal account right now.

Lets see if you OBEY Jesus' CLEAR commands....or if you CONTEXT your way out of it because Jesus somehow doesnt mean YOU here and NOW ;)

I have already addressed this question, but I will address it again.

It is true that Jesus' statement about "giving to whoever asks you" should not be taken as a universal edict, without qualification. So, of course, the last thing that would be sensible for me to do is to give you $5000, which would, in all likelihood, be used to promote your manifestly incorrect views about the nature of the Kingdom of God, or to buy ammunition.

Now, I suggest that that this issue is resolved by this teaching:

Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments

Jesus is teaching us about that which is fundamental, essential, non-negotiable. Notice how Jesus does not add a third element here – such as the statement that we need to give to whoever asks. If he did, then perhaps I would be obliged to give you the $5000. In any event, when Jesus identifies “love of neighbour†as foundational to “the lawâ€, He effectively elevates “love of neighbour†to exceptionless status. As is the case with the command to love God.

Regardless of all else, we are being commanded to love God and love neighbour. The fact that these are set apart as the underpinning of what otherwise is a system of law with some exceptions – as Jesus indeed shows with his illustration about how David and his followers were “guiltless†when broke the letter of the law about the showbread – shows that these are non-negotiable fundamental principles. The law may have exceptions, but these principles do not.

So when you can make a case about how killing your neighbour is an act of love, perhaps we can advance the discussion.

 

[follower of Christ]

.And NOW for the excuses as to why THIS passage, when it affects DREWS life, doesnt apply to everyone...while the precepts he doesnt actually have any scriptural support for somehow DO apply to the REST of us ;

..It is true that Jesus' statement about "giving to whoever asks you" should not be taken as a universal edict, without qualification...

So apparently when the CLEAR scriptures affect DREW directly he finds a way to context/excuse himself out of paying up...yet for whatever reason DREWS twists on scripture are 'absolute'

Sorry drew...we aint buying it friend.. ;)


.

 

[Drew]

.
.
READERS TAKE NOTE...

Ive now asked both Drew AND Shad to simply OBEY the CLEAR commandment of our Lord Jesus by giving as HE has commanded His followers to give when ASKED.

In contrast NEITHER of them has provided a single word from scripture that says we cannot use a weapon to deter crime against our families or ourselves.

Why is it that drew and shad WONT obey CLEAR command, yet expect the REST OF US to obey some mythical "commandment" that they cannot even present to begin with ?

;)

You really need to read the transcipt of this thread before you put your foot in your mouth. Even before my most recent post, I had already addressed your challenge. Now unlike you, who evades challenges to stand behind his posts, I will now substantiate my claim that I had already addressed this:

As for the foundation of Jesus' teachings, Jesus ALSO said to give to EVERY man who asks of us. No conditions or limitations are given by Christ, just blanket instruction to GIVE.
If we take that statement 'as is' without ANY context allowed then this means I can demand any amount of money or property from ANY TRUE christian on this site and they are OBLIGATED to give me what I demand without question or hesitation or thought.

This is a good point - we are obviously not intended to give anything whatsoever to someone who asks. We can clearly see situations where taking this literally would be unloving to self, family, and even the asker.

But we need to remember the primacy of love - Jesus summarized the law with statements about loving God and loving neighbour. So I suggest that there is every reason to think that "love", unlike "giving out stuff" is foundational and exceptionless. And I cannot see how to reconcile killing a man the imperative to love him.

 

[follower of Christ]

So when you can make a case about how killing your neighbour is an act of love, perhaps we can advance the discussion.

Which is where your ridiculous fallacy goes completely astray.

Once more...and read it as many times as it takes to sink in drew....

carrying a weapon for defense is for DETERRENCE.

Getting it yet ? ;)

Does Canada have any military force, Drew ? Do they ?
What is the PURPOSE of that military force, drew ?

Is your claim that if the Canadians have a military then they 'hate' their neighbor, Drew....is THAT the tripe you expect us to believe, Drew ?

No, Drew, the canadians ARENT out to kill their neighbor, Drew...they have a military for SELF defense...in which there is NO crime committed.

The same goes for SELF defense of the person and ones family.
I dont have to HATE a man in order to prevent him from raping my wife and tearing the flesh from her bones.
That is simply YOUR perversion of Gods word ;)
.

 

[follower of Christ]

You really need to read the transcipt of this thread before you put your foot in your mouth. Even before my most recent post, I had already addressed your challenge. Now unlike you, who evades challenges to stand behind his posts, I will now substantiate my claim that I had already addressed this:

No...I dont.
You did precisely as I expected you to do...you fell right into the trap laid out for you friend....and you did so by contexting your way out of paying up.

Do you honestly think I WANTED you to pay up, Drew ?
Hardly. The Lord has provided quite abundantly for my wife and I.
I WANTED you to find some scriptural precept to GET OUT of paying, to find some reason why the CLEAR commandment DIDNT apply ... and thus PROVE to the READERS here that CONTEXT overrules any verse that may or may not say what we THINK it says.

You did EXACTLY what I wanted you to do ;)

Youve run to this 'love your enemies' line so many times its becoming pathetic, and expect US to accept YOUR twist on it as absolute..to the point of not protecting OUR families to ANY length....yet when the CLEAR scripture is aimed in YOUR direction you find something in there to understand that the CLEAR scripture doesnt always say what WE may think it says until the broader picture is understood.

Thank you for proving my points for me ;)
Whose foot is in whose mouth now ?


.

 

[Rick W]

<sigh>