Growth Understanding Baptism ?

[eddif]

grams

II Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

This is not attacking your doctrine, but about not gathering your support from the number of supporters. Your scripture pile should support your thoughts.

eddif

 

[grams]

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Douglas Summers]

A real good explanation of baptism will probably come from the least likely source.

I totally (for instance) have my mind at a loss when I read:
I Corinthians 10:2
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Baptized in the sea? They were dry shod with the water standing up off in the distance. How is my redneck brain going to understand that?

Baptized in the cloud? Their source of water was from the struck rock mostly, and not from a cloud.

Intelligence is getting me nowhere in a hurry.

The Egyptians were immersed (?).

eddif

Hi eddif, the last post I wrote to answer this post was not personal. I did not mean you were not Spiritual. Sometimes when I go back over a post I have posted, it sounds like a personal accusation. With out face to face discussions, sometimes we come across as accusatory. It was not. I just wanted to clear that up in case you thought it was. A born again Christian is not always completely mature in the Scriptures, so because we do not understand something, does not mean we do not have the Spirit. But the man who claims to be saved and continues teaching false doctrine is suspect.

 

[brother Paul]

If you are “born from above” (john 3) you are a "New Creature"....not of the first Adam being either Jew or Gentile but a New Creature "in Christ" of the last Adam

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

We are now a totally new kind of creature...an eternal being though still IN our temporal bodies

 

[eddif]

If you are “born from above” (john 3) you are a "New Creature"....not of the first Adam being either Jew or Gentile but a New Creature "in Christ" of the last Adam

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

We are now a totally new kind of creature...an eternal being though still IN our temporal bodies

If you have said what I think you have said, then you are a very special person. Probably messed up in the flesh but alive in Christ Jesus.

If true let us now start to work.
I John 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, thenhave we confidence toward God.

Seperating our heart from the mind of Christ in us; is the only way we function in Him.

The word in heart and mind allow us to see who we really are.

The word must be alive and not just carved in stone. Most do not see Romans 7:25 like your post seems to.

eddif

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Really? And where did you earn your graduate degree in theology?

I rarely share my training in forums. John said each believer's power of discernment by the Holy Spirit is how one knows if a person knows what they are talking about or not. Degrees don't tell us if a person is a spiritual instrument in the hands of God or not. You seem to be trying to dismiss that truth because some believers choose to reject what the Holy Spirit teaches them they are hearing is true, or not true. What you're saying is not good teaching.

Being born of water is not being born of Spirit.

I didn't say it was. I was addressing your assertion "1. Receiving the Holy Spirit is not being born again" in post #411. The Spirit is in fact the very essence of being born again as I showed you from John 3:7-8 NASB. That can, and does, often happen without a drop of water. That's how it happened for Cornelius and his family.

Being born of the spirit is when one receives or is baptized in the Holy Spirit.

They are two separate acts of God. But that's just what that Bible thingy says as I have demonstrated multiple times, apparently, to no avail.

Well, I don't know why you came to the conclusion that I somehow think different. You'll have to take that up with someone who thinks that way.

 

[eddif]

Jethro
Could we say that seeds / the word planted in our heart and mind cause a new birth heart of flesh to be born, and a new mind of the spirit to be born?

eddif

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro
Could we say that seeds / the word planted in our heart and mind cause a new birth heart of flesh to be born, and a new mind of the spirit to be born?

eddif

We can say that without a doubt.

 

[Jim Parker]

I rarely share my training in forums.

OK, so no formal theological training.

John said each believer's power of discernment by the Holy Spirit is how one knows if a person knows what they are talking about or not.

Citation please.

So, are you implying that you are endued with the power of the Holy Spirit to know what you're talking about but that I am not?

I've heard some pretty silly stuff from people who asserted that they were full of the Holy Spirit. Just listen to some of the "anointed" TV evangelists and take note of their multitudes of believer-followers. Do all the followers of, for example, Kreflo Dollar have that "believer's power of discernment" to know that Rev. Dollar knows what he is talking about when he tells them to send him their money so the Lord will repay them a hundred fold? Maybe not

Receiving the Holy Spirit is not being born again" in post #411. The Spirit is in fact the very essence of being born again as I showed you from John 3:7-8 NASB.

The "very essence" of being born again is being baptized in water and in the Holy Spirit.

That passage specifically refers to being "born of the Spirit." What I have repeatedly posted from Romans states that, in water baptism, one participates in Jesus death and resurrection from death to new life. Raising to new life is being "born again."

In answering the question of how one could be born a second time, Jesus said that one must be born of BOTH water AND spirit. Being "born of the Spirit" is one of two aspects of being "born again."

That can, and does, often happen without a drop of water. That's how it happened for Cornelius and his family.

It was my experience as well. And both the household of Cornelius and I were subsequently baptized in water in fulfillment of Jesus' requirement to be born again of water and of Spirit.

However, (once again) that example does not change one iota of what Jesus stated, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)

Mazel tov

iakov the fool

 

[turnorburn]

Water Baptismal regeneration is heresy...

 

[eddif]

We can say that without a doubt.

Actually he gives us a new heart (ground) that allows word to grow to maturity and yield plenty of fruit.

I was not thinking right when I did the post. I was reminded in my spirit however.

eddif

 

[turnorburn]

Have to step out for awhile you guys behave in my absence..

 

[Jim Parker]

Water Baptismal regeneration is heresy...

Oi gevalt!

Then the apostle Paul was a heretic because that is exactly what he taught.

 

[eddif]

Being born of water and spirit?

Since Jesus was born of woman, was this not water baptism? ( the birth process ?).

Now through a glass darkly.

eddif

 

[Jim Parker]

Since Jesus was born of woman, was this not water baptism? ( the birth process ?).

No. That is what the word "again" implies. The "water" of the first natural birth is replaced by the water of the rebirth in baptism. That is born "again" of water.

 

[brother Paul]

If you have said what I think you have said, then you are a very special person. Probably messed up in the flesh but alive in Christ Jesus.

If true let us now start to work.
I John 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, thenhave we confidence toward God.

Seperating our heart from the mind of Christ in us; is the only way we function in Him.

The word in heart and mind allow us to see who we really are.

The word must be alive and not just carved in stone. Most do not see Romans 7:25 like your post seems to.

eddif

Sadly your personal unfounded judgment of me "messed up in the flesh but alive in Christ Jesus" says more of you than of me, and totally misses the point of my post (which is scriptural by the way). If you go back and read all my posts you will see they are all word based and not filled with much "private interpretation" (2 Peter 1:20)....as for your closing personal implication "Most do not see Romans 7:25 like your post seems to" is bizzare at best since I nowhere said anything about Romans 7:25.

All living people (even the saved like Paul) will wrestle with the flesh and the strongholds we habitually formed there until the day of redemption. By the Holy Spirit and the word, because of what Christ accomplished on the cross and by His resurrection, we have been graced to slowly grow in our new being more and more into the image of Christ (that is if we truly have been born from above).

Whereas before the new birth sin was our life style (we did not even consider it sin but fun or pleasure or getting over or whatever). After, for those genuinely born from above, sin eventually becomes the rare and ever more rare exception (for which forgiveness extends to cover - 1 John 1:9) we are instantly aware of and disappointed about these rare occasions of sin (which disappointment and contrition would only happen before salvation if one were caught)....when we pray we KNOW we are forgiven and cleansed and strive to do better and better with His help.

So I have no idea of what you are talking about here....I rebuke your unfounded accusations, and remind you that the general topic is "Understanding Baptism"....

Peace be unto you

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Actually he gives us a new heart (ground) that allows word to grow to maturity and yield plenty of fruit.

I was not thinking right when I did the post. I was reminded in my spirit however.

eddif

While that's certainly true, you had it right the first time too. I was thinking of this when I read your post:
"18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth" (James 1:18 NIV)

 

[brother Paul]

Of course, no one can deny the role the word plays....how else would we have known about Jesus being the Messiah, that He came to be our redemption price, that He rose again thus justifying our faith and so on???? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word....but I have known some who have heard the word, speak the word, preach the word and in doing so fleece the flock, sleep with the sheep, and worse (some even the baby lambs)....without the Spirit the word is just a bunch of letters on paper or words from a beguiling tongue! You must be born from above...and that is the work of the Spirit.

Baptized by the Spirit is how He puts us in Christ, receiving the Spirit is how we get Christ in us (the hope of glory)...He is us and us in Him...the same kind of oneness He had with the Father since the beginning (Bereshith)...John 17...which was His prayer for us. Being passed through the water (whether regenerational, ritual, or symbolic is irrelevant) was always God's way of setting people and things apart for His use and purpose (many types and ours is the anti-type, i.a., the fulfillment) to initiate, sanctify, officiate, identify, and so on....

Now some receive the Spirit after Baptism (Acts 8, 9), others before (Acts 2, 10)...Simon Magi who was definitely not saved because his heart was wrong before God is said to have believed and was baptized (but he had impure motive which God knew)...

So again I say, being baptized does not guarantee salvation (even Hitler was baptized) but the saved should be baptized (I would think they would want to be). God ordained the method to set us apart, Jesus did not only do it, but commanded all His disciples to do it...if you have come to belief because you trusted after having heard the word of your salvation (the gospel of truth) and have not been baptized...go and do so....because He commanded it to be so. To say "No I won't" or No! I do not need to be baptized" then you have been deceived or are a child of disobedience.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

OK, so no formal theological training.

Okay, kudos to you.
I wasn't expecting that move on this chess board affectionately called cf.net.

Citation please.

The believer's power to discern the truth for himself by the anointing he has via the Holy Spirit is taught here:

"26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him." (1 John 2:26-27 NASB)

This doesn't mean the believer doesn't need teachers to teach them as it is sometimes said the passage means. It means they have the God given capacity (the anointing of the Spirit) to not be led astray by false doctrine when they hear it from false teachers who claim it to be true. Here's this same truth of the privileged discernment of the believer as taught directly by Jesus:

"3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”" (John 10:3-5 NIV)

So, just because even the sheep will sometimes choose to follow the stranger's voice and pierce themselves through with many griefs, that hardly makes the two passages I just shared false. The believer really doesn't need a theological degree, or the unquestioned guidance of a theologically trained leader to know that what he is hearing is truth, or not (unless you want to argue the point with James and Jesus?).

Bottom line is, believers do not need someone telling them what the truth is (Don't confuse that with someone needing to tell them the truth--see the difference?). Each believer ultimately has the anointing to know that for himself. I do not listen to a teacher just because he waves his degree in the air and says you have to listen to him 'cause he's a teacher and you can't know these things are true unless someone tells you they are. In fact, I immediately question the one who makes it a point to make it known he is an educated, and therefore, qualified teacher of the truth in order to win people to his point of view, instead of letting the truth he speaks validate itself in the hearts and minds of God's sheep as God said it would. I think it can be argued that scripture bears heavily on the side of the boast of superior education being more an attribute of the false rather than the attribute of the true.

 

[Jim Parker]

The believer's power to discern the truth for himself by the anointing he has via the Holy Spirit is taught here:

Yet John,opened the same letter you quoted by referring the readers to what they had been taught, not what they discerned by their "anointing."

1Jo 1:1-3 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life—the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. (NKJV)

Paul as well told Timothy; "And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also". (2Ti 2:2)

So the "bottom line", according to John and Paul, is not the individual's "anointing", it is the apostolic teaching passed from generation to generation by "faithful men."

It is not the "anointing" of the individual that is the arbiter of truth; it is the Church which is the pillar and foundation of the truth. (1Ti 3:15)

Bottom line is, believers do not need someone telling them what the truth is. Each believer ultimately has the anointing to know that for himself.

The evidence provided by observing the results of people's assumption that they have the anointing to discern the truth is the multitude of heresies, winds of doctrine, and the great calamity of the extensive fracturing of the body of Christ into tens of thousands of factions and sects each one of which claims that it alone has the truly true truth and the whole truth and nothing but the truth because it has "the anointing." And every one of the sects was founded by someone who had the arrogance to assume that he had the "anointing" and knew better than the Church which Jesus founded.

It would be laughable were it not so sad a state of affairs; the house of God so irreparably separated against itself that the pagan world sees it as irrelevant.

Considering the tens of thousands of opinions reflected by the multitude of factions, each assuming that they have the anointing to discern the truth, I find your argument less than convincing convincing.

But everyone has a nose, two eyes, two ears, and at least one opinion.

iakov the fool