Understanding the Two Resurrections

[JLB]

The list is quite extensive to "depict" their reality. None of these terms are idioms,

I agree. They are real.

The thorn in the flesh is not real, but rather an idiomatic term that refers to a real messenger of Satan to buffet him.


But of course you know that -

From Post # 147.
The obvious thing that should occur to you is that "the thorn" is an allegorical expression of SATAN and his messengers.

JLB

 

[smaller]

Do you believe the phrase "thorn in the flesh" refers to a literal thorn in Paul's flesh, or do you believe it is a allegorical term that refers to the literal messenger of Satan to buffet him ?

JLB

Yes, the THORN is one of MANY allegorical terms that means "the same as" the DEVIL. Satan is not a literal thorn, a literal dragon, a literal serpent, a literal behemoth, a literal leviathan.

But Satan is a REAL BAD ACTOR. It is when we "recognize" that internal temptation is of the tempter, the worst sinner that has ever existed is in our minds to make that temptation.

It is also Satan's role to cover up and hide and diminish his role in these matters. So it's no surprise when believers can't see the obvious. I really don't expect them to see.

But other things DO happen when the facts are put out. Resistance arises, on cue.

 

[JLB]

Yes, the THORN is one of MANY allegorical terms that means "the same as" the DEVIL. Satan is not a literal thorn, a literal dragon, a literal serpent, a literal behemoth, a literal leviathan.

But Satan is a REAL BAD ACTOR. It is when we "recognize" that internal temptation is of the tempter, the worst sinner that has ever existed is in our minds to make that temptation.

It is also Satan's role to cover up and hide and diminish his role in these matters. So it's no surprise when believers can't see the obvious. I really don't expect them to see.

But other things DO happen when the facts are put out. Resistance arises, on cue.

Satan deceives people, that is his power.

He deceives people into thinking that he is God, in which he projects himself to have more power than he actually has.

We have been given power to cast out demons, as well as to walk in the Spirit so that we do not fulfill the lust's of the flesh.

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons... Mark 16:16-17

Believers cast out demons.
Unbelievers allow them to remain.

Which are you.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes, the THORN is one of MANY allegorical terms that means "the same as" the DEVIL. Satan is not a literal thorn, a literal dragon, a literal serpent, a literal behemoth, a literal leviathan.

But Satan is a REAL BAD ACTOR. It is when we "recognize" that internal temptation is of the tempter, the worst sinner that has ever existed is in our minds to make that temptation.

It is also Satan's role to cover up and hide and diminish his role in these matters. So it's no surprise when believers can't see the obvious. I really don't expect them to see.

But other things DO happen when the facts are put out. Resistance arises, on cue.

The thorn in the flesh is an idiomatic expression, that points to a reality.

The reality was a messenger of Satan to buffet him.

The scripture does not say the messenger of Satan was in Paul's flesh.

The scripture does not say sin is the devil.

He who sins is of the devil... 1 John 3:8


JLB

 

[smaller]

Satan deceives people, that is his power.

He deceives people into thinking that he is God, in which he projects himself to have more power than he actually has.

We have been given power to cast out demons, as well as to walk in the Spirit so that we do not fulfill the lust's of the flesh.

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons... Mark 16:16-17

Believers cast out demons.
Unbelievers allow them to remain.

Which are you.

JLB

Paul prayed three times to be delivered from that messenger of Satan in his flesh. He was likewise denied 3 times.

Paul associated this with "weakness" that was DIVINELY PURPOSEFULLY put upon his flesh, to keep IT in check and to recognize that this spiritual adversity, of the ADVERSARY, does exist "in our flesh."

Again, connect:

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Where else is this term, weakness, employed?

By Paul, again here:

1 Corinthians 15:43
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

Paul also directly connected this "infirmity" problem referenced in 2 Cor. 12 to TEMPTATION, here:

Galatians 4:
13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Who tempts? Satan and his messengers. There is no "escape" from this "battle" in this present life. Eph. 6:11-12.

 

[ezrider]

I am born again, and Spirit baptized, and also water Baptized.

I'm awaiting Jesus to return, to gather His people at the resurrection/rapture.

If I'm alive at that time, then I will be awaiting the rapture.

If I have died before he returns, then I will be awaiting the resurrection.



JLB

How can you be born again, if you have not yet first died?

 

[JLB]

Paul prayed three times to be delivered from that messenger of Satan in his flesh. He was likewise denied 3 times.

God denied Paul's request, to be delivered from the messenger of Satan, who was buffeting, [beating] Paul.

Who tempts? Satan and his messengers. There is no "escape" from this "battle" in this present life. Eph. 6:11-12.

False statement that is a conglomeration of mixing together unrelated scriptures, as well as mixing together an allegorical expression, with the reality it points to.

Thorn in the flesh is an idiomatic phrase, that is not literal.

This non-literal idiomatic phrase is about a messenger of Satan that buffeted Paul, and was certainly not "in" Paul's flesh.

This messenger of Satan buffeted Paul which mean beat; physically beat.

Mixing together the non literal phrase "thorn in the flesh" together with a "messenger of Satan to buffet me", to come up with the idea that Satan was in Paul's flesh, is a text book example of how false doctrine is spread through the body of Christ.

Non literal: thorn in the flesh - this phrase means a source of frustration, like the modern term " pain in the a_ _ ".

"Pain in the a_ _," is a non literal term for a source of frustration.

It does not mean a literal pain in the a_ _.

Example: The drill instructor I have is a pain in the a_ _. He makes me do push ups for every little infraction.

The non literal phrase "pain in the a_ _", is used to describe the drill instructor's actions, that is a source of frustration to the person.

Likewise, the "thorn in the flesh", is a non-literal phrase that is used to describe the reality of Paul's frustration; a messenger of Satan that buffeted him.

The messenger of Satan was not in Paul's flesh.

The messenger of Satan buffeted Paul, which simple means the messenger of Satan beat paul.

Buffet - Strong's G2852 - kolaphizō

1. to strike with the fist, give one a blow with the fist
2. to maltreat, treat with violence and contumely
   

The messenger of Satan beat, and struck Paul.

I don't have a messenger of Satan that buffet's me, nor do I know of any Christian that does.

Then again, this condition was unique to Paul and Paul only for the purpose of keeping Paul humble because of the abunce of his revelations.

Paul was not deceived by this messenger of Satan, but rather he was beaten.

And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 2 Corinthians 12:7


thorn in side
(redirected from a thorn in flesh)
Also found in: Dictionary, Thesaurus, Medical, Encyclopedia.
*thorn in someone's side
and *thorn in someone's flesh
Fig. a constant bother or annoyance to someone. (*Typically: be ~; become ~.) This problem is a thorn in my side. Iwish I had a solution for it. John was a thorn in my flesh for years before I finally got rid of him.


JLB

 

[JLB]

How can you be born again, if you have not yet first died?

Because I believe the Gospel Message.

...having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:23

Having been is past tense.


JLB

 

[ezrider]

Because I believe the Gospel Message.

...having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:23

Having been is past tense.


JLB

But you keep saying you have to physically die before you can be resurrected, and yet in order to be Born Again, one must be resurrected, quickened by the Spirit of Christ. So if you have not yet physically died, and have yet to be resurrected, then how can you say that you are Born Again? You can not be born again, except you first die.

 

[smaller]

God denied Paul's request, to be delivered from the messenger of Satan, who was buffeting, [beating] Paul.

The messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh was not physically beating Paul. That's a ridiculous notion.

 

[JLB]

The messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh was not physically beating Paul. That's a ridiculous notion.

The ridiculous notion is that there was a messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh.

The scripture says this: a messenger of Satan to buffet me.


And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 2 Corinthians 12:7

The "thorn in his flesh" was not literal.
The messenger of Satan that buffeted him was literal.

These are your words -

From Post # 147.
The obvious thing that should occur to you is that "the thorn" is an allegorical expression of SATAN and his messengers.

"the thorn" is an allegorical expression.

This is a non literal expression, that points to a literal reality.

"Thorn in the flesh" is a non literal expression.

Both the "thorn" and the "flesh" are non literal parts of this allegorical saying: "thorn in the flesh".

The real part that this non literal expression pointed to was: a messenger of Satan to buffet me.

Non literal; allegorical - "thorn in the flesh".
Literal - messenger of Satan to buffet me.

You don't get to take part [flesh] of the non literal, allegorical scripture, and mix it with the literal part of the scripture [Satan] and blend the non literal part, with the literal part to form some crazy mixed up, man made doctrine.

That is non biblical, false teaching.


JLB

 

[JLB]

But you keep saying you have to physically die before you can be resurrected,

I keep saying that a person has to physically die, in order to be resurrected from the dead, at His coming.

If a person is physically alive, at His coming, then they will be raptured, not resurrected from the dead.

and yet in order to be Born Again, one must be resurrected, quickened by the Spirit of Christ.

Please post the scripture, that teaches us in order to be born again, one must be resurrected.


Here is the only scripture, that I know of off hand that you may be referring to.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again [past tense] to a living hope [present tense] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, [past tense]] 1 Peter 1:3

The resurrection of Jesus Christ, not the resurrection of the dead in Christ, but the resurrection of Jesus Christ, is what gives us hope, that we ourselves will be resurrected from the dead.

Paul says it this way - ... For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.

12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:12-20



JLB

 

[ezrider]

I keep saying that a person has to physically die, in order to be resurrected from the dead, at His coming.

If a person is physically alive, at His coming, then they will be raptured, not resurrected from the dead.

I am not disagreeing with your statement here, Only pointing out that the coming you are referring to is the coming at the second death.

Please post the scripture, that teaches us in order to be born again, one must be resurrected.


Here is the only scripture, that I know of off hand that you may be referring to.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again [past tense] to a living hope [present tense] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, [past tense]] 1 Peter 1:3

I didn't have any particular scripture in mind when I made that statement, but I see you found a scripture to confirm it for yourself. Maybe now you might begin to understand the position from which I am speaking, which is the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, for Jesus Christ is the First Resurrection, through which I am made alive now by His Spirit that dwells within me. It is our resurrected or quickened bodies through which we should seek to understand the scriptures, for they are hid to those who remain yet dead, or rather those who are not yet quickened. Our life is now hid in the First Resurrection, which is the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

Romans 8:9-11
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


Romans 14:7-9
For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.


Galatians 2:19-21
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Let us move on from here with an understanding that at this present time, we should be seeking to understand the fullness of the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead; Christ, being the First Resurrection, so that we might stand in that day with the full assurance that we are written in the lamb's book of life, for on such the second death has no power. Let us grow in the knowledge of the First Resurrection now, and let the judgement at the second death come when it may. As Paul says in Hebrews 6:1-2, lets us move on from the first principles of the resurrection from the dead and of eternal judgement, that we might move on unto maturity, so that we might be formed in the image of His Resurrection.

 

[n2thelight]

Logically, no.

scripturally .yes...Were we not made in His image?

 

[JLB]

I am not disagreeing with your statement here, Only pointing out that the coming you are referring to is the coming at the second death.

The second death is not the second coming.

The second death is for those who are cast into the lake of fire.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

The second coming of the Lord is when the dead in Christ are resurrected from the dead, and those who are alive and remain are caught up with them.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17


JLB

 

[JLB]

It is our resurrected or quickened bodies through which we should seek to understand the scriptures, for they are hid to those who remain yet dead, or rather those who are not yet quickened.

Quickened refers to those who are resurrected from the dead.

Quickened means made alive.

This is a reference to the physical body.

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:11

11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Romans 8:11



JLB

 

[JLB]

Let us move on from here with an understanding that at this present time, we should be seeking to understand the fullness of the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead;

I think gaining a fuller understanding of the resurrection from the dead, begins with understanding that a person must physically die, in order to be resurrected from the dead.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Nothing I can do about how it sounds,did Christ have a body before He became flesh?

Logically, no.

scripturally .yes...Were we not made in His image?

Scripturally, no. God's Image, in which we are made, is not describing God's body.

 

[n2thelight]

Scripturally, no. God's Image, in which we are made, is not describing God's body.

MOSES SEES GOD'S BODY

God first revealed Himself in a mighty way to Moses from the
burning bush. From that time on the Eternal and Moses were
friends with a "buddy-buddy" relationship. This relationship
between the Lord and Moses was so personal that it is recorded,
"And the Lord spoke unto Moses FACE to FACE, as a man speaks unto
a friend...."(Ex.33:11). Now our "no body" for God teachers will
say either this is just a metaphor or God appeared as a human,
but when in the "spirit" He has no body or face. Of course that
is the answer they will give to any section of scripture where
God appeared to men. But there was a time when God appeared to
Moses IN THE SPIRIT FORM - the Lord opening up his eyes to see
Himself in the spirit dimension, that the human eye can not
usually see, I refer you to the example of the servant of Elisha
in 2 Kings 6.


So close a relationship did Moses have with God that on one
occasion Moses was so bold as to ask the Lord to show Himself to
him, not as a human but as He really IS. Moses' request is found
in Exodus 33 and verse eighteen. Notice the reply from the
Eternal: "....You can not SEE MY FACE; for no man can see me and
live."(verse 20). God did not say to Moses that He did not have a
body and so did not have a face and so could not show Himself in
the spirit form as having a shape. To the CONTRARY, the answer to
Moses SHOWS CLEARLY GOD DOES HAVE A FACE AND BODY! He told Moses
that no man could look upon the face of God in spirit form and
live. Now I ask you, how simpler can the word of God be in this
matter? No theological degree needed to understand this verse,
just believe it for what it says.

Well friends, notice what God would do for Moses, "And the
Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and you shall stand
upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my GLORY passes by,
that I will put you in a cliff of the rock, and will cover you
with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away my hand, and
you SHALL SEE MY BACK PARTS: but my FACE shall not be
seen."(verses 21-23).

There it is, how simple, how wonderful, is the word of the
Lord. You can believe it - means what it says and says what it
means. You do not need seductive men to "interpret" God for you.
Truly I tell you with the words of the apostle John, "These
things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
But the anointing which you have received of Him abides in you,
and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same
anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie,
even as it has taught you, you shall abide in it" (1 John
2:26,27).

As a young child's mind together with the anointing of the
Holy Spirit, you can understand the truth about God, you can know
the things that God wants you to know about Him, the things that
He has revealed about Himself, and one of those truths revealed
to us is that God DOES HAVE A SHAPE, A BODY, A FACE! Moses was
given the great privilege - only a few to be so given - of seeing
God in His SPIRIT - GLORY - FORM. Moses could not look upon the
face of God and live, but he was able to look upon the BODY of
God from the back.

Oh the truths of the word are so wonderful. Be not afraid of
those who "set themselves" up as your teachers, who huddle behind
closed doors with their theology degrees from theology schools of
this world, and come forth to proclaim deeper understanding of
God, which is really only old pagan myths from Babylon and Egypt.
How the Lord must LAUGH at their imaginations, then again maybe
He WEEPS at their hard heartedness for not being as little
children in reading and believing His word.

http://www.keithhunt.com/gods_body.html

We can agree to disagree

 

[n2thelight]

In ancient Egypt, Pharaohs drove their slaves to build huge pyramids to house their dead bodies. They filled these tombs with immense treasures of gold and all kinds of utensils that might be of service in their coming life. They cultivated the art of embalming, so that their bodies could be preserved for thousands of years with the least possible amount of decay. It's as if they thought that by taking such elaborate precautions, they could be prepared for the life to come. Apparently, they believed that their souls would one day return into those mummified bodies, and they wanted everything to be ready.

This is a stark contrast with the attitude expressed by Jesus. One of His disciples asked him, "Let me first go bury my father." Jesus said, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead" (Matthew 8:21-22, Luke 9:59-60). For Jesus, the dead body was of no consequence.

For Christians, the focus is not meant to be on the body that has died, but on the spirit that rises into the coming life. For two thousand years, Christians have been nourished by the hope that their loved ones who have died are happy in heaven with the Lord, not lying cold and dead in the ground. Nevertheless, some people believe that the resurrection will be a resurrection of the physical body that lies in the grave, and that when a person dies the soul remains unconscious for years or centuries until Christ comes again and brings all the bodies out of the grave and reawakens the souls that are sleeping within those bodies. Yet it is not only more comforting to picture a person rising immediately into the next life after death, but it is also more in keeping with the teachings of the Bible.

We Rise Soon after Death

Jesus tells of a poor man Lazarus and his rich neighbor who both died. The rich man ended up in hell, while Lazarus went up to heaven. (Luke 16: 22-24) Both of them came into the next life immediately after death. There was no hint here of a long wait to come back into their bodies, for the rich man's brothers were still alive on earth.

When Jesus was on the cross He promised one of the thieves, "Todayyou will be with Me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Jesus did not say, "Just wait twenty centuries or more, and I will fix up your body again."

Since we rise immediately after death, people who have died are in the spiritual world, and they can be seen by those whose spiritual sight is open. For example, when Peter, James and John had their eyes opened to see Jesus in His glory, they also saw Moses and Elijah, who were clearly not in their graves. When Saul went to the witch of En Dor, he spoke with the spirit of Samuel who appeared as an old man (1 Samuel 28: 3-19), and Lazarus found himself in the bosom of Abraham in heaven (Luke 16:22-24). In fact, when Jesus said to the Sadducees that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the God of the living, not the dead, the clear implication is that Abramam, Isaac and Jacob had already risen from death into life (Matthew 22:31-32; Mark 12:26-27; Luke 20:37-38). He is "the God of the Living," not "the God of the dead who will centuries later come back to life."

Angels have sometimes appeared to people whose eyes were opened to see them. Very often, the Bible says that these angels are people. For example, we read that three men appeared to Abraham (Genesis 18: 2), and that when Jacob wrestled with an angel he wrestled with a man (Genesis 32: 24). Likewise, the angels were people who appeared to Joshua (Joshua 5: 13-14), Manoah and his wife (Judges 13: 6-11), Ezekiel (Ezekiel 9: 2-3,11; 10: 2-3,6), Daniel (Daniel 9: 21; 10: 5; 12: 6-7), Zechariah (Zechariah 1:8,11), and the women at the sepulcher (Mark 16: 5; Luke 24: 4). The Bible says these angels were people, and clearly none of them were still in the grave.

http://www.whatthebiblesays.info/ResurrectionBody.html