Understanding the Two Resurrections

[smaller]

Non literal; allegorical - "thorn in the flesh".
Literal - messenger of Satan to buffet me.

You don't get to take part [flesh] of the non literal, allegorical scripture, and mix it with the literal part of the scripture [Satan] and blend the non literal part, with the literal part to form some crazy mixed up, man made doctrine.

That is non biblical, false teaching.

JLB

Neither the "thorn" = "messenger of Satan" are physically apparent. The thorn was the messenger of Satan.

This also gives rise to this fact:

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Paul also describes believers as 'asleep' in/with works of darkness to cast off.

Romans 13:
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Darkness is directly equated to Satan by Jesus, here:

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

 

[JLB]

Neither the "thorn" = "messenger of Satan" are physically apparent. The thorn was the messenger of Satan.

This whole idiomatic phrase is non literal - thorn in the flesh.

No part of this phrase is literal and refers to anything, that the person who is using this phrase associates with a source of frustration.

Paul referred to the messenger of Satan, as his source of frustration.

Another person might say... My boss is a "thorn in my flesh", or a pain in my a_ _....he has really been "on my back" all week.

This idiomatic phrase can be used to describe whatever a person decides to describe a source of frustration.

You have taken part of this idiomatic phrase, flesh ["thorn in my flesh"], which referred to a messenger of Satan to buffet me, and combined the reality, which part of the non reality, to form: Satan in his flesh...

Now you are attempting to persuade everyone to believe, that "thorn in the flesh" can only refer to Satan in my flesh.

This idiomatic phrase is, can refer to whatever the person chooses to describe their source of frustration, and is not just limited to Satan...



JLB

 

[ezrider]

I think gaining a fuller understanding of the resurrection from the dead, begins with understanding that a person must physically die, in order to be resurrected from the dead.


JLB

 

[eddif]

We live in a really strange world. Not strange to God, but a little strange to even those who are saved.

Everything to those outside Christ is in parables.
Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

The spiritual foreknowledge is hidden in the natural. Natural man just sees the natural. The multitudes who followed Jesus only heard about seeds being planted. The disciples privately, with Jesus, heard the spiritual meaning (after they as Asked what the parable of the sower meant). The disciples did not thank Jesus for using something they understood, but wanted an explanation.

When God made / created everything, the explation of spiritual things was inside the things that were made. Seeds explained spiritual growth, but it was a long time before it was explained.

The ox was made long before pay the preacher was explained-

Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The full moon spoke of the full coming of Christ Jesus, but even today some do not see this. As a redneck in the sticks, the moon is not obscured by skyscrapers and city lights. (As you saw him go, so shall you see him come again). Days months years were done on day 4, but The lesson was about a spiritual Jesus to be manifested in the future. Then prophecy began to be given of the coming messiah (by prophets). Physical Jesus spoke of spiritual realities.

The reality is Jesus, but the heavens tell his story, but the heavens are shrouded in mystery.

The resurrection started in dead seeds.
Three (?) examples of the dead coming back to life were in the OT under the OC.
The kingdom teaching had many dead raised (mini temporal resurrection).

The coming resurrection has a multitude to be raised.

The metaphysical has two components:
The physical
And
That knowledge hidden in the physical

Better get the stump grinder out for now.

eddif

 

[smaller]

We live in a really strange world. Not strange to God, but a little strange to even those who are saved.

Everything to those outside Christ is in parables.
Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

The spiritual foreknowledge is hidden in the natural. Natural man just sees the natural. The multitudes who followed Jesus only heard about seeds being planted. The disciples privately, with Jesus, heard the spiritual meaning (after they as Asked what the parable of the sower meant). The disciples did not thank Jesus for using something they understood, but wanted an explanation.

When God made / created everything, the explation of spiritual things was inside the things that were made. Seeds explained spiritual growth, but it was a long time before it was explained.

The ox was made long before pay the preacher was explained-

Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The full moon spoke of the full coming of Christ Jesus, but even today some do not see this. As a redneck in the sticks, the moon is not obscured by skyscrapers and city lights. (As you saw him go, so shall you see him come again). Days months years were done on day 4, but The lesson was about a spiritual Jesus to be manifested in the future. Then prophecy began to be given of the coming messiah (by prophets). Physical Jesus spoke of spiritual realities.

The reality is Jesus, but the heavens tell his story, but the heavens are shrouded in mystery.

The resurrection started in dead seeds.
Three (?) examples of the dead coming back to life were in the OT under the OC.
The kingdom teaching had many dead raised (mini temporal resurrection).

The coming resurrection has a multitude to be raised.

The metaphysical has two components:
The physical
And
That knowledge hidden in the physical

Better get the stump grinder out for now.

eddif

Brilliant deductions, all. God is quite active in creation. His Hand can be observed, daily. Even on the front page headlines.

Spiritual reality will not show just two resurrections, but millions or billions. How so?

1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ comes to each man, as they are called out of their present state of darkness. He is first, a Seed, planted in our own darkness. Our own vile body.

1 Corinthians 12:14
For the body is not one member, but many.

1 Corinthians 15:38
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

2 Corinthians 5:1
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

 

[ezrider]

The coming resurrection has a multitude to be raised.

The metaphysical has two components:
The physical
And
That knowledge hidden in the physical

What is the knowledge that is hidden in the physical? Is it the knowledge of the Spirit of Christ hidden within us? Or is it it the knowledge of sin being made manifest.

Romans 1:18-19
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Daniel 12:1-4
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

What is the knowledge that shall be increased? And why are they running to and fro to find it?

I have a copy of a Bullinger KJV Companion Bible, and apparently there may be some discrepancy as to the translation of Dan 12:4? There is a note on a Septuagint translation (Swete's Edition) that reads as "till many shall have gone raving mad, and wickedness or calamities shall be increased."

 

[eddif]

What is the knowledge that is hidden in the physical? Is it the knowledge of the Spirit of Christ hidden within us? Or is it it the knowledge of sin being made manifest.

Romans 1:18-19
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Daniel 12:1-4
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

What is the knowledge that shall be increased? And why are they running to and fro to find it?

I have a copy of a Bullinger KJV Companion Bible, and apparently there may be some discrepancy as to the translation of Dan 12:4? There is a note on a Septuagint translation (Swete's Edition) that reads as "till many shall have gone raving mad, and wickedness or calamities shall be increased."

The oxen study is a good place to start looking at the concept.

Each of us has different gifts. I see the cloven feet and 4 stomachs. The seed coat is removed from the corn, and the. Inner grain is offered to others to process. The seed coat is all this ox is doing. I am not giving any processed doctrine. Jesus shines forth as the first from the dead. Seed coat removed.

The split hooves do not smash grain, or not remove the coat. The things of God are seen in what he created.

Romans 1:20 KJV
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Verses 18 & 19 show man
Verse 20 shows God.

We see through a glass darkly. I learn all the time. I have found the truth in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

eddif

 

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Paul poses the "wrath of God" as a question to us:

Romans 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

I might say what if we're not willing to receive it?

Look at the condition, the shoes Paul put himself in:

Romans 7:
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

All of these things speak to the vessel of dishonor in Paul's own flesh. We are planted in "dishonor." 1 Cor. 15:43.

In Matthew 25 there is an account of separating the sheep from the goats. Now put yourSELF in Paul's shows above. See that believers do both good and evil works. Both sheep works and goat works.

There are only two parties to the account of Matt. 25. People and the devil and his messengers.

Now read and understand where that separation will take place. IN US.

What IF God was willing to show His Wrath, and make HIS POWER known?

 

[eddif]

I guess I will share some physical experience and try to draw parallels.

About 3 months ago I suffered a semi sharp skin cut / tear. Being macho man I really just somewhat ignored the wound. 0ne month later the 3/4" tiny tear is not healing. Finally I do a little needle surgery, and come up with a mini leaf size twig frarement (?). So now the wound covers itself with scar tissue.
But
40'or so days later, the tiny wound has a tiny bit of pain and is just a lilttle red with minor swelling. I see a small spot and scratch there and come out with the needle again. This time I get a tiny paint chip (?).
So
Several days later it is healed over but still not completely healed.

A thorn in the flesh is an aggravation.

So is a reaction to a mental wound. Small amounts of un-forgiveness, unresolved anger can hurt a friendship.

The resurrection can have examples in the flesh,but really have eternal issues about sin being finally dealt with.

I have had some food allergies, but I learned negative thoughts cause reactions too. If I avoid the negative thought, the mental allergy goes down. Avoid food no allergy. Avoid thought meditation no mental anguish.

Thanks Holy Spirit for your thoughts.
At the resurrection the shadows will be gone.

eddif

 

[ezrider]

The oxen study is a good place to start looking at the concept.

Each of us has different gifts. I see the cloven feet and 4 stomachs. The seed coat is removed from the corn, and the. Inner grain is offered to others to process. The seed coat is all this ox is doing. I am not giving any processed doctrine. Jesus shines forth as the first from the dead. Seed coat removed.

The split hooves do not smash grain, or not remove the coat. The things of God are seen in what he created.

A thought on the oxen, for all are considered as grass, and wither away, but you shall grow up as calves in the stall..

Malachi 4:1-3
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven;
and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble:
and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts,
that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings;
and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
And ye shall tread down the wicked;
for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

 

[eddif]

A thought on the oxen, for all are considered as grass, and wither away, but you shall grow up as calves in the stall..

Malachi 4:1-3
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven;
and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble:
and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts,
that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings;
and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
And ye shall tread down the wicked;
for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

Matthew 3:12 KJV
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The gifts and calling:
An ox used to tread out grain, would not be wild and unmanageable, but nurtured in the Lord (stall raised). Preaching the true word, comes from God. A called preacher is nurtured of God.
.........

Those who hear:
Are either grain or chaff.
I Peter 2:7 KJV
Unto you therefore which believe he isprecious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Not just any oxen, and not just any preacher. Not just a header, but what happens to the hearer.

Symbolism is complex.

Now go to 4 stomachs of ox.

eddif

 

[smaller]

Matthew 3:12 KJV
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The gifts and calling:
An ox used to tread out grain, would not be wild and unmanageable, but nurtured in the Lord (stall raised). Preaching the true word, comes from God. A called preacher is nurtured of God.
.........

Those who hear:
Are either grain or chaff.
I Peter 2:7 KJV
Unto you therefore which believe he isprecious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Not just any oxen, and not just any preacher. Not just a header, but what happens to the hearer.

Symbolism is complex.

Now go to 4 stomachs of ox.

eddif

Since you are traveling in my absolute favorite scriptural arena, comparative spiritual to spiritual understanding, let's take a look at the OX, in brief and how Paul used that term in the N.T. applied to a somewhat obscure Old Testament law:

1 Cor. 9:
7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

In the above Paul takes that law [in red] and comes up with an entirely different meaning [in blue] AND further claims it to be 'written.' If we do a search of terms we will find what Paul claims is written, NOWHERE.

It IS however "written." Hidden beyond plain sight.

Paul employs the Spiritual tool of ALLEGORY, comparing spiritual things to spiritual things to unfold and unlock the truthful meanings of the scriptures. Yes, there is an entire volume of B-I-B-L-E that is hidden from flesh eyes.

I would extract how Paul got to where he arrived, but believers with no appreciation of allegories, parables, it's scriptural rules, it's scriptural methods, would have no understandings of how that works because their own eyes remain locked up in flesh sights.

We have been provided bread/Word crumbs to follow the trails. But if a person has no interests it really wouldn't matter to them.

And yes, your own dissection is correct. There is a resurrection of both wheat and chaff. Essentially TWO resurrections. This speaks to our own "harvesting" from the earth at our completion. Just as the ox is a partaker in the harvest of physical wheat, the plower/sower is a partaker of both the spiritual and carnal produce.

The chaff and the tare are obvious byproducts. But necessary in the temporal arena, just as they would appear in any field. The difficulty we all have is failure to see the tare growing in our own "earth" or ourselves as wheat without the forthcoming chaff.

In the vs. below Paul again shows this wheat/chaff. He identifies it as spiritual/carnal produce.

11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

The law in blue, without getting into how it is derived, MEANS that a preacher DIVIDES the earth like an ox and a plow divides the field, the Word is sown in an earthly/flesh BODY. Therein the seed of eternity is planted, the seed of Christ. It grows, HOPEFULLY. And from that sowing there is both a growing and a harvest of wheat and chaff. Of spiritual and carnal.

There are also other principles to these matters. For example, the tare and the chaff really don't care to hear their fate, nor does the carnal understand the spiritual. And never will. It's not meant to happen. And the tare will compete for the same spiritual resources, as an interloper/adversary. It too is a byproduct and will be discarded.

 

[eddif]

James 1:5 KJV
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all menliberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.


Some of the adversarial Gentile kings opposing Israel knew God was at work. Blows my feeble redneck mind away that God speaks to anyone who asks.
Matthew 15:26
But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

The information may be hidden in creation or revealed when faith is applied.

Which baptism do we seek? All are available. Jews and Gentiles had a Pentecost. Gentiles just need to know why, and realize their station.

The law used lawfully; is unraveled somewhat by the oxen comments (OT & NT). Jesus being the sacrifice is seen more clearly, after we see an ox being a bishop.

Oh for the day when the welding goggles are removed.

eddif