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Guest
Guest
Starting a new thread on this subject. What are your views on meditation and Out of Body Experiences. Is this taught as something we shouldn't do in the Bible? If so please provide scripture.
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Soma-Sight
Guest
When you empty your mind like that you are letting down your natural God given defenses against spirits. You may not realize it but unless you are calling upon the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit alone you are at risk of attack by demons.
Lining up your chakras in certain ways like mystical religons teach is a way to allow certain energies into you body and mind. It is a form of worship to false gods.
I would not reccomend trying to "leave your body" to any Christian . It allows possesions to occur and it can be quite frightening.
Blessed is he who beleives but does not see.
Lining up your chakras in certain ways like mystical religons teach is a way to allow certain energies into you body and mind. It is a form of worship to false gods.
I would not reccomend trying to "leave your body" to any Christian . It allows possesions to occur and it can be quite frightening.
Blessed is he who beleives but does not see.
S
Soma-Sight
Guest
One of the fruits of the New Age beleif of astral projection is of the attitude that "death is an illusion".
Most people that astral project are universalists that beleive that once you die your spiritual body lives on. This is entirely unbiblical and defeats the purpose of the cross.
I am not saying that AP is all bad but I think it should only be done by those that are firmly rooted in Christ and have some Divine purpose in mind before "cruising" around the so callled astral realms.
Most people that astral project are universalists that beleive that once you die your spiritual body lives on. This is entirely unbiblical and defeats the purpose of the cross.
I am not saying that AP is all bad but I think it should only be done by those that are firmly rooted in Christ and have some Divine purpose in mind before "cruising" around the so callled astral realms.
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Guest
Guest
I would disagree on this. For some reason God gave us the ability to meditate in certain ways that would allow us to possibly have an OBE. People have OBE's in their sleep without them knowing about it. So if it is something so natural to do while sleeping how can it be against God? God can protect you when you are meditating and when you have these experiences. I don't see anything wrong with it and really there isn't any scripture that says if it is or isn't wrong to participate in.
Faer'Maethor
Faer'Maethor
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Guest
Guest
Ok we were posting at the same time there so didn't get your second post. I would agree with you that you need to be spiritually grounded to participate in anything like this.
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Soma-Sight
Guest
Yes I see your point on AP's happening in your sleep as not being your fault and out of your control. I have had these types of occasions many times but I think it is a double edged sword. Sometimes it can being quite terrifying as you lose any sense of your ego or self. It is like you are dissolving into everything else and overall THIS IS NOT SOMETHING YOU WANT TO HAVE HAPPEN WHILE DRIVING. One time I was so disoriented from a "vision" I had that I pulled my car off the side of the road by some train tracks and just tried to calm down and get me "self" back. I felt like I was in a video game and someone just hit pause on everything else but me!!!!
Yes AP's and OBE's can teach you a lot and you can see some fantastic sights. However from my own personal experieces it is not something I reccomend to the common joe on the street. Losing all aspects of your senses can make you beleive that you are dead. I think some people have a stronger tendancy for these visions than others and perpetuating them without the help of the Holy Spirit WILL lead to Satanic possesions. Trust me on that one.
If you think you are strong enough to delve into go ahead. For some people nothing even happens. But in my case A LOT happend and I try to just tell people to go to Church and beleive in Jesus at this stage of my life.
Good luck to you on any expedentures you may have but keep Christ first!!
Yes AP's and OBE's can teach you a lot and you can see some fantastic sights. However from my own personal experieces it is not something I reccomend to the common joe on the street. Losing all aspects of your senses can make you beleive that you are dead. I think some people have a stronger tendancy for these visions than others and perpetuating them without the help of the Holy Spirit WILL lead to Satanic possesions. Trust me on that one.
If you think you are strong enough to delve into go ahead. For some people nothing even happens. But in my case A LOT happend and I try to just tell people to go to Church and beleive in Jesus at this stage of my life.
Good luck to you on any expedentures you may have but keep Christ first!!
G
Guest
Guest
I have also read a number of your posts before you became a Christian. Your beliefs were very anti christian. Care to explain what happened in your life to change you?
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Soma-Sight
Guest
Quite simply I realized and experienced the power of Satan and his hold over me. All at once in one moment. Like a shot out of a cannon into a brick wall. I broke down and threw up and cried in a corner. I begged for the mercy of Christ and got it. Do not mock the Devil. He is stronger than you think.
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Guest
Guest
Didn't know I said anything where I was mocking the Devil.
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Soma-Sight
Guest
I am just saying it is not good to experiment with AP without the backing of the Holy Spirit.
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Ana'riel
Guest
I've had dreams that very well could have been AP. I've also seen a dragon, I don't know if it was the dragon... I've seen a few things, always without the help of drugs, for some peopl that just happens. It might be a little bit unfair to say it's evil You know like how some people are naturally phsycic. The trick is to focus on Jesus 
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Christy
Guest
I have not had OBE's or AP's, but I wish I could. Is that un-Christian of me? :o
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Henry
Guest
The bible says two things in this matter, that I will mention more, but two that I will mentoin.
First,to be absent from the body is to be present with the Father, we simply do not leave our body and float around, if we are in this place the earth we are in the body, if we are not in our body we with the Father. That is just as simple as it is, so projection is not possible, but is is possilbe for satan to make you think it happened if that is all it takes to decieve you, how much easier can you make it for him.
Secondy, God says to meditate on his word. He says to gaurd your mind and take every thought cative to the word of God. If you just fling open the doors and you are not gaurding are you. True medication is to contemplate on the word of God and be in prayer with Him.
What you need to realize is that spirituall war is a war for youe mind, satan wants to influence how you think, because then he can influnce not only how you act, but how you respond to the truth when faced by it.
If you let exerience be your guide and do not let the word of God lead you steps, you will fall right into hell.
So this notion of out of body experince is nothing more then an old lie of the devil and poeple are eating it up like candy, how very sad.
First,to be absent from the body is to be present with the Father, we simply do not leave our body and float around, if we are in this place the earth we are in the body, if we are not in our body we with the Father. That is just as simple as it is, so projection is not possible, but is is possilbe for satan to make you think it happened if that is all it takes to decieve you, how much easier can you make it for him.
Secondy, God says to meditate on his word. He says to gaurd your mind and take every thought cative to the word of God. If you just fling open the doors and you are not gaurding are you. True medication is to contemplate on the word of God and be in prayer with Him.
What you need to realize is that spirituall war is a war for youe mind, satan wants to influence how you think, because then he can influnce not only how you act, but how you respond to the truth when faced by it.
If you let exerience be your guide and do not let the word of God lead you steps, you will fall right into hell.
So this notion of out of body experince is nothing more then an old lie of the devil and poeple are eating it up like candy, how very sad.
C
commercialformyarmy&n
Guest
For centuries Christian mystics have used meditation, and other forms of consciousness altering forms of mental trance to essentially "tap" into the metaphysical (although not in an Astral Projection sense, as it's still 'in the body', just a more subtle body). Only good things can come from a Christian seeking a higher form of consciousness - because ultimately, who and what we are is consciousness; manifested into the physical flesh. We all exist on a metaphysical level, so the idea that transcending is evil is absurd (as this is exactly what will happen when we die.) Pneuma makes a difference!
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Henry
Guest
The bible is the final authority, not experiences or what some susposed christians did or did no do.
The idea of this is evil, because it is sinfull.
We do not need a higher level of what ever, we need a whole new nature.
We are to to meditate on Gods word only, and that is to know him better not to gain some person advancement.
However I see here we have the same problem, no one know what real chrisitan is, anyone who blurbs out the word is christian and no one takes the time to read the bible.
The fact is that this experiecne is just lie of the devil and you guys are falling for it, it does not happen and can not happen, when you die you will go the father and that is that.
It really amazes me that so many reject Gods word and rather believe in this idiot garbage, what good deceiver the devil is, you guy beleive in dragons, and purple fairys but not the bible, goofy is all that comes to mind.
The idea of this is evil, because it is sinfull.
We do not need a higher level of what ever, we need a whole new nature.
We are to to meditate on Gods word only, and that is to know him better not to gain some person advancement.
However I see here we have the same problem, no one know what real chrisitan is, anyone who blurbs out the word is christian and no one takes the time to read the bible.
The fact is that this experiecne is just lie of the devil and you guys are falling for it, it does not happen and can not happen, when you die you will go the father and that is that.
It really amazes me that so many reject Gods word and rather believe in this idiot garbage, what good deceiver the devil is, you guy beleive in dragons, and purple fairys but not the bible, goofy is all that comes to mind.
C
commercialformyarmy&n
Guest
The Nag Hammadi codices were not discovered until 1945. Included among them was the complete Gospel of Thomas. I recommend that you read some of Princeton scholar Elaine Pagel's works ('The Gnostic Gospels,' or 'The Gnostic Paul'). I bought her last book this very day - 'Beyond Belief.'
The Church Fathers who edited the other Christian books out of the canon, now referred to as Apocryphal writings, were at something of a loss - a great loss - because all of the information was not available. The Gospel of John might not have made it into the canon because it is Gnostic in flavor, and the Revelations of John is only one of several apocalyptic pieces that the editors decided to include. Feeling wild and crazy that day I suppose.
Just because Paul talks down those so-called Gnostics who were 'puffed up' with a kind of Knowledge, which led some to the conclusion that once saved, one could be as libertarian as one wanted, does not condemn all of the movements referred to generally as Gnosticism. Pagel's Gnostic Paul shows line-by-line how Gnostic the Biblical Paul's words are. Some Gnostics rejected Paul, others embraced him utterly.
Just what constitutes heresy - for you - has been carefully honed and handed down, to all of us, by these very human Churchmen (not women, despite Clement of Alexandria's position that women could become priests). It was THEIR decisions that determined what writings YOU could consider to be the Word of God. Their misogynistic mentalities, unBiblical celibate priesthood ideals, and their political agendas for controlling the masses all entered into what ancient writings would henceforth be taken as Holy Writ. Now take the Protestant mentality back to the beginning, and protest if one will, that with much more information at one's modern disposal, every man of faith ought to be able to determine doctrine. And as Clement said, true Gnosis is not apart from one's faith experience.
As for me - I was predominantly a Johannine Christian until I discovered Thomas, and it is this Gospel that speaks to MY faith experience. It is the Gospel of Thomas that describes MY experience of Christ moreso than the other canonical books or Nag Hammadi writings. Thomas may indeed be the earliest fragments of an oral tradition that preceded even Mark's source. If I reserve the right to come to my own, free-willed decisions, based upon my own scholarship and conscience, I do not necessarily hold 'wrong views' (heresies), based on dated and incomplete early Christian scholarship. As Archbishop J.S. Spong titled one of his books: 'Christianity Must Change or Die.'
The Church Fathers who edited the other Christian books out of the canon, now referred to as Apocryphal writings, were at something of a loss - a great loss - because all of the information was not available. The Gospel of John might not have made it into the canon because it is Gnostic in flavor, and the Revelations of John is only one of several apocalyptic pieces that the editors decided to include. Feeling wild and crazy that day I suppose.
Just because Paul talks down those so-called Gnostics who were 'puffed up' with a kind of Knowledge, which led some to the conclusion that once saved, one could be as libertarian as one wanted, does not condemn all of the movements referred to generally as Gnosticism. Pagel's Gnostic Paul shows line-by-line how Gnostic the Biblical Paul's words are. Some Gnostics rejected Paul, others embraced him utterly.
Just what constitutes heresy - for you - has been carefully honed and handed down, to all of us, by these very human Churchmen (not women, despite Clement of Alexandria's position that women could become priests). It was THEIR decisions that determined what writings YOU could consider to be the Word of God. Their misogynistic mentalities, unBiblical celibate priesthood ideals, and their political agendas for controlling the masses all entered into what ancient writings would henceforth be taken as Holy Writ. Now take the Protestant mentality back to the beginning, and protest if one will, that with much more information at one's modern disposal, every man of faith ought to be able to determine doctrine. And as Clement said, true Gnosis is not apart from one's faith experience.
As for me - I was predominantly a Johannine Christian until I discovered Thomas, and it is this Gospel that speaks to MY faith experience. It is the Gospel of Thomas that describes MY experience of Christ moreso than the other canonical books or Nag Hammadi writings. Thomas may indeed be the earliest fragments of an oral tradition that preceded even Mark's source. If I reserve the right to come to my own, free-willed decisions, based upon my own scholarship and conscience, I do not necessarily hold 'wrong views' (heresies), based on dated and incomplete early Christian scholarship. As Archbishop J.S. Spong titled one of his books: 'Christianity Must Change or Die.'
H
Henry
Guest
commercialformyarmy&navy
I must say that you are clueless, hey I have some swamp land to sell, I bet you would be a great target, whoops I mean prosect.
LOL
Certain books were left out of the cannon becuase they were not insorired text, they were condredictory, some were not found in the language the others were written and so on, but if you think it was becuase some men liked this one and that one, and were trying to give the word the meaning they wanted, you are not only ignorant you are a sucker.
I mean you'll believe anything won't you.
So why not beleive that cannon of the bible we have is just what God intended, or would that burst your idea of the great secret and conspiricy.
Oh and tell me just what do you think makes some a Christian anyways.
I must say that you are clueless, hey I have some swamp land to sell, I bet you would be a great target, whoops I mean prosect.
LOL
Certain books were left out of the cannon becuase they were not insorired text, they were condredictory, some were not found in the language the others were written and so on, but if you think it was becuase some men liked this one and that one, and were trying to give the word the meaning they wanted, you are not only ignorant you are a sucker.
I mean you'll believe anything won't you.
So why not beleive that cannon of the bible we have is just what God intended, or would that burst your idea of the great secret and conspiricy.
Oh and tell me just what do you think makes some a Christian anyways.
C
commercialformyarmy&n
Guest
Chill out, Brother. It's a metaphysical conundrum, this predestination-free will paradox. Guess what?...Both principles operate in God's cosmos, and anyone can align themselves to either vector into Reality and witness their respective operations.
Moral action does not curry God's favor, moral action is the result of one's being having been 'run through' with God's "Uncreated Energy," as the Orthodox like to refer to Grace. However, once again - a paradox. Grace is the reponse to Faith, but one doesn't will oneself to have Faith. Faith itself is a gift of God's Grace. The ability to pray for Faith, is the result of Grace. It's a loop, a paradox, and the paradox is not soluble in any amount of rational thought. It ceases to appear paradoxical only from a transrational, transcendental perspective.
Cherishing any doctrine, free will or predestination, or any other rational explication of a transcendental factor is 'shirk' (in Islam) or simple idolatry, or 'wrong view,' otherwise translated as 'heresy.' But only men are screaming these things at one another. God is forgiving of our misguided attempts to comprehend His Infinitude and Eternality. So...lighten up...conceptually. One's justification, sanctification and salvation are NOT determined by the Councils at Nicea, Chalcedon or elsewhere. All of this is out of the hands and judgements of men, it belongs to God alone. So relax. It is not "reason" that God puts in one's heart - He "made his light shine in our hearts" (2 Corinthians 4:6).
Moral action does not curry God's favor, moral action is the result of one's being having been 'run through' with God's "Uncreated Energy," as the Orthodox like to refer to Grace. However, once again - a paradox. Grace is the reponse to Faith, but one doesn't will oneself to have Faith. Faith itself is a gift of God's Grace. The ability to pray for Faith, is the result of Grace. It's a loop, a paradox, and the paradox is not soluble in any amount of rational thought. It ceases to appear paradoxical only from a transrational, transcendental perspective.
Cherishing any doctrine, free will or predestination, or any other rational explication of a transcendental factor is 'shirk' (in Islam) or simple idolatry, or 'wrong view,' otherwise translated as 'heresy.' But only men are screaming these things at one another. God is forgiving of our misguided attempts to comprehend His Infinitude and Eternality. So...lighten up...conceptually. One's justification, sanctification and salvation are NOT determined by the Councils at Nicea, Chalcedon or elsewhere. All of this is out of the hands and judgements of men, it belongs to God alone. So relax. It is not "reason" that God puts in one's heart - He "made his light shine in our hearts" (2 Corinthians 4:6).
G
Gary
Guest
Gospel of Thomas
Gospel of Thomas
Summary: The evidence for the authenticity of the Gospel of Thomas does not even compare with that for the New Testament. The New Testament dates from the first century; the Gospel of Thomas, the second. The New Testament is verfied by many lines of evidence, including self-references, early canonical lists, thousands of citations by the early Fathers, and the well-established dates for the Synoptic Gospels.
Read more here: http://f27.parsimony.net/forum66635/messages/146.htm
Gospel of Thomas
Summary: The evidence for the authenticity of the Gospel of Thomas does not even compare with that for the New Testament. The New Testament dates from the first century; the Gospel of Thomas, the second. The New Testament is verfied by many lines of evidence, including self-references, early canonical lists, thousands of citations by the early Fathers, and the well-established dates for the Synoptic Gospels.
Read more here: http://f27.parsimony.net/forum66635/messages/146.htm
C
commercialformyarmy&n
Guest
Hey, Gospels are Gospels. That's how I see it, and I don't adhere literally to any collection of Holy Writ as infallible. You referred me to some fundamentalist-jargon web-site that shares the same fear you have of the Unknown - the Unknown that Gnostics have so humbly came to penetrate to better understand the 'theory of nature' that lies in the infallible mystery that is God - not a physical principle such as a book.