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Was Israel enslaved in Egypt due to their sin and does Passover represent forgiveness of sin?

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chessman said:
My question(s) come from a point N.T. Wright makes in his new book (The Day the Revolution Began) which was discussed recently on the Unbelievable podcast (linked below).

Tom Wright says that Israel was not enslaved because of their sin nor does Passover in the NT or the OT represent forgiveness of sin (~48 minute mark). I disagree. Surprise, surprise J

I somewhat see his overall point about the atonement, but I’m not sure that he is using a very good rationale for it. Even he is somewhat questioning this idea.

Yes, Passover is a Feast, a celebration and the Day of Atonement (for sin) is a fasting day. He’s basically trying to determine which has primacy in the grand plan of God’s redemption of His people. But, the celebration of Passover is most certainly a celebration FOR the forgiveness of sin, IMO.

Concerning the Passover, In Exodus 7 God tells Moses:

Ex 7:4b-5 (LEB) I will put my hand into Egypt and bring out my divisions, my people, the Israelites (Literally “sons/children of Israel”) from the land of Egypt with great punishments. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am Yahweh when I stretch out my hand over Egypt and bring the Israelites (Literally “sons/children of Israel”) out from their midst.”​

Specifically though, Tom Wright says: “I am not aware of any pre-Christian interpretation of Passover which sees it having anything to do with dealing with sin until the 2nd Temple period ..” (~49:48). Umm, I beg to differ:

Exodus 12:21 (LEB) And Moses called all the elders of Israel, and he said to them, “Select and take or yourselves sheep for your clans and slaughter the Passover sacrifice.

Exodus 12:27 (LEB) you will say, ‘It is a Passover sacrifice for Yahweh, who passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt when he struck Egypt; and he delivered our houses.’” And the people knelt down and they worshiped.

Numbers 9:13 (LEB) But the man who is clean and not on a journey, and he fails to observe the Passover, that person will be cut off from the people because he did not present the offering of Yahweh on its appointed time. That man will bear his guilt.

Deuteronomy 16:5 (LEB) You are not allowed to offer the Passover sacrifice in one of your towns that Yahweh your God is giving to you,

Deuteronomy 16:6 (LEB) but only at the place that Yahweh your God will choose, to let his name dwell there; you shall offer the Passover sacrifice in the evening at sunset, at the designated time of your going out from Egypt.​

Clearly, on his statement made at the 49:48 point, he’s wrong. Passover was a sacrifice for sin. Sure, it's a celebration for God's passing over their sin. But it most certainly deals with their sin.

So my only question is, are there passages that speak specifically of why Israel’s sons were enslaved in Egypt in the first place? Punishment for sin or so that God could rescue them? Or both?

The hatred and jealousy Joseph’s brothers had and exhibited toward their brother Joseph (meaning God will add)???

Genesis 37:28 (LEB) Then Midianite traders passed by. And they [the brothers] drew Joseph up and brought him up from the pit, and they sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites for twenty pieces of silver. And they brought Joseph to Egypt.​

But Wright may be right in that the Bible doesn't actually say that Israel was enslaved in Egypt due to their sin.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/unbelievable/id267142101?mt=2#episodeGuid=http://cdnapi.kaltura.com/p/618072/sp/61807200/playManifest/entryId/1_yftgm5ja/flavorId/1_1mjz774w/protocol/http/format/url/a.mp3?clientTag=feed:1_jlj47tkv
Click to expand...
Passover and the day of Atonement are two separate events.
Passover is a a day to remember the day God freed Israel from PHAROAH. The day of Atonement represents the 80th day when Moses came back down from Mount Sinai after the golden calf incident.

As far as Joseph, God was preparing him for the blessi g to be second in command,thus saving his family.... and fulfilling the vision that got him thrown into the pit by his brothers in the first place.

Genesis 15:16 gives Gods reason for them bring in Egypt 400 years, and it's not because of Joseph. And no, they were not slaves the whole time. Goshen was the best land Egypt had for raising livestock.

Israel didn't want to leave Egypt, they simply wanted a friendly ruler... This is why scripture says they were driven out, and why they wanted to return, knowing PHAROAH was dead.
 
chessman said:
I will try to follow the light through the desert on my way to the promised land.

Hope you’re feeling better from your illness. Been praying for you.
Click to expand...
Amen, and thank you for your prayers brother. Time heals all.... thank you for your prayers.
 
StoveBolts said:
Yup, the book of names.... because it doesn't matter where your at, you never loose your identity. We all go through our own exodus from time to time....
Click to expand...
You paraphrased Ramban on why isreal was not to dwell anywhere else but the land of promise.

Yacob,yitshak,and ibrahim all left the land to go into Egypt during hard times.a bad habit to teach the Hebrew Nation
 
jasonc said:
You paraphrased Ramban on why isreal was not to dwell anywhere else but the land of promise.

Yacob,yitshak,and ibrahim all left the land to go into Egypt during hard times.a bad habit to teach the Hebrew Nation
Click to expand...
Actually, that wasn't Ramban. It was from an audio download fro chabad. "Shemot", the book of names.
God gave Joseph a vision. It was realized in Egypt. And although Exodus is paralled with Abram and Sarah, it was all part of Gods plan.
Names are important in the Bible, and "Shemot starts with, "These are the names...".
You would enjoy the audio.
 
chessman said:
My question(s) come from a point N.T. Wright makes in his new book (The Day the Revolution Began) which was discussed recently on the Unbelievable podcast (linked below).

Tom Wright says that Israel was not enslaved because of their sin nor does Passover in the NT or the OT represent forgiveness of sin (~48 minute mark). I disagree. Surprise, surprise J

I somewhat see his overall point about the atonement, but I’m not sure that he is using a very good rationale for it. Even he is somewhat questioning this idea.

Yes, Passover is a Feast, a celebration and the Day of Atonement (for sin) is a fasting day. He’s basically trying to determine which has primacy in the grand plan of God’s redemption of His people. But, the celebration of Passover is most certainly a celebration FOR the forgiveness of sin, IMO.

Concerning the Passover, In Exodus 7 God tells Moses:

Ex 7:4b-5 (LEB) I will put my hand into Egypt and bring out my divisions, my people, the Israelites (Literally “sons/children of Israel”) from the land of Egypt with great punishments. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am Yahweh when I stretch out my hand over Egypt and bring the Israelites (Literally “sons/children of Israel”) out from their midst.”​

Specifically though, Tom Wright says: “I am not aware of any pre-Christian interpretation of Passover which sees it having anything to do with dealing with sin until the 2nd Temple period ..” (~49:48). Umm, I beg to differ:

Exodus 12:21 (LEB) And Moses called all the elders of Israel, and he said to them, “Select and take or yourselves sheep for your clans and slaughter the Passover sacrifice.

Exodus 12:27 (LEB) you will say, ‘It is a Passover sacrifice for Yahweh, who passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt when he struck Egypt; and he delivered our houses.’” And the people knelt down and they worshiped.

Numbers 9:13 (LEB) But the man who is clean and not on a journey, and he fails to observe the Passover, that person will be cut off from the people because he did not present the offering of Yahweh on its appointed time. That man will bear his guilt.

Deuteronomy 16:5 (LEB) You are not allowed to offer the Passover sacrifice in one of your towns that Yahweh your God is giving to you,

Deuteronomy 16:6 (LEB) but only at the place that Yahweh your God will choose, to let his name dwell there; you shall offer the Passover sacrifice in the evening at sunset, at the designated time of your going out from Egypt.​

Clearly, on his statement made at the 49:48 point, he’s wrong. Passover was a sacrifice for sin. Sure, it's a celebration for God's passing over their sin. But it most certainly deals with their sin.

So my only question is, are there passages that speak specifically of why Israel’s sons were enslaved in Egypt in the first place? Punishment for sin or so that God could rescue them? Or both?

The hatred and jealousy Joseph’s brothers had and exhibited toward their brother Joseph (meaning God will add)???

Genesis 37:28 (LEB) Then Midianite traders passed by. And they [the brothers] drew Joseph up and brought him up from the pit, and they sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites for twenty pieces of silver. And they brought Joseph to Egypt.​

But Wright may be right in that the Bible doesn't actually say that Israel was enslaved in Egypt due to their sin.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/unbelievable/id267142101?mt=2#episodeGuid=http://cdnapi.kaltura.com/p/618072/sp/61807200/playManifest/entryId/1_yftgm5ja/flavorId/1_1mjz774w/protocol/http/format/url/a.mp3?clientTag=feed:1_jlj47tkv
Click to expand...

Dear Chessman,

I too listened (though only recently) to the Unbelievable podcast. I was disappointed that Tom Schreiner (sp. ?) didn't press him more on some of the claims he makes, and fully agree with what you've written above. I ended up publishing a negative review of the book here (https://www.academia.edu/34178771/) in case you're interested in looking at it, which isn't something I enjoy doing, but I felt it needed to be done.

God bless,

James.
 
James Bejon said:
Dear Chessman,

I too listened (though only recently) to the Unbelievable podcast. I was disappointed that Tom Schreiner (sp. ?) didn't press him more on some of the claims he makes, and fully agree with what you've written above. I ended up publishing a negative review of the book here (https://www.academia.edu/34178771/) in case you're interested in looking at it, which isn't something I enjoy doing, but I felt it needed to be done.

God bless,

James.
Click to expand...
In all fairness, the English word sacrifice doesn't represent the original intent of the Hebrew.
The jist of the Hebrew word is a drawing near to God. So when Moses wrote the above words, in English, substitute sacrifice with drawing near to God, and you'll get a better sense.
 
Hi Stove. That’s true. My main point here concerns the backdrop to the Passover rather than the word ‘sacrifice’. The Passover represents (among other things) God’s judgment of Egypt’s gods (Exod. 12.12, 18.10-11, Num. 33.4), with whom Israel has wrongfully connected herself. God is therefore angry with his people, and rightly so (Josh. 24.14, Ezek. 20.8, 20.34-36). He will pour out his judgment and strike down each firstborn in Egypt. And his wrath will be outpoured on Israel’s households too. But, in Israel’s case, God has provided a way of escape--in particular, a means of substitution. A lamb can be killed in place of a firstborn. From God’s divine perspective, then, the Passover lamb serves as a substitute. The death of each firstborn will (rightly) afflict the Israelites’ households unless a lamb is slaughtered and its blood is applied to each house’s doorframe. To put the point another way, either a lamb must die or the firstborn must die. The point is underscored in Exod. 13, where, as an illustration and memorial of the Passover’s events, Moses tells the Israelites, “[From now on], you must redeem each firstborn of a donkey by means of [alt. ‘at the cost of’] a lamb, and, if you do not redeem [it], you must break its neck; and [so] each firstborn man among your sons you must redeem”. Contra the claims of Wright, then, the events of the Passover revolve around the notion of penal substitution.
 
chessman said:
But Wright may be right in that the Bible doesn't actually say that Israel was enslaved in Egypt due to their sin.
Click to expand...
the first time ISRAEL ended up in Egypt . there was famine the boys had sold Joseph into slavery . we all know the story the family soon found favor . then another king came in AND WAS EXTREMELY jealous / fearful of the family . so was that first time due to sin ? the dad had done nothing wrong... i look at it as God had a plan and he is just using Egypt to make a part of the puzzle . the final pieces was the birth burial Resurrection ..the fullness of time.. might i add the author of this book means well i am sure . but all this is how he Believes.. just like the southern baptist vs general baptist both good doctrines but see the plan of salvation different .
 
Dear Ezra. True, Israel isn’t specifically said to have been enslaved in Egypt due to her sin. But, either way, God is said to be angry with Israel at the time of the Passover.
 
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Israel had to wait until the sins of the people in the land God promised Abraham had reached full measure. (Genesis 15) They were mistreated because of the hardness of man not Gods judgment. Jesus is depicted as a passover lamb as well as a High Priest who enters the true tabernacle built by God by His own blood.
 
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